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Thread: Not everybody is as accepting as one would hope

  1. #26
    Silver Member Bobbi46's Avatar
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    Doc your are right there judgemental is just what Charles is hopefully by the end of the weekend or early next week I will have made some sort of breakthrough with them.
    I started life a lost man now I am a found woman

  2. #27
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    Bobbi,
    I fear Sherry has opened up a can of worms here ! I must admit I've witnessed more judgemental situations within the TG community than in the RW .

    I still feel Charles didn't fully engage his brain before putting his mouth in gear , it was more a knee jerk reaction but I still wonder where it came from , what's hidden from you ?

  3. #28
    Member Michaela Jane's Avatar
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    It's that kind of reaction that keeps me in the closet.

  4. #29
    Silver Member Bobbi46's Avatar
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    Michaela, Charles is the only one amongst all of the folks here both expat and French that right now is not on board with me but as I said I hope to sort something out by the end of the weekend.
    One person certainly is not going to stop me dressing and going out, I have got so far now, one person is not going to stop me reaching my umtimate goal. I have been nothing short of amazed at how readily people have taken to me having before known only the drab Bob and now faced with the dressed Bobbi.
    Things like this drive one forward I think.
    I started life a lost man now I am a found woman

  5. #30
    New "old" girl Suzie Petersen's Avatar
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    Dear Bobbi,
    Bobbi: One person certainly is not going to stop me dressing and going out, I have got so far now, one person is not going to stop me reaching my umtimate goal.
    You know I love and support you, so please take this the right way.
    Charles did not tell you to stop dressing and going out. All he did, was ask you to not come to his home dressed. HIS home!
    What ever his reason was for his reaction, I think that is a resonable request to make. It is his home, his sanctuary. It is resonable for him to chose what he has to face there.
    I understand you are disapointed and a little upset by this, but I dont think you will gain anything by attempting to force your friend to accept your chosen lifestyle. He has a choice in the matter too, and he certainly has a right to ask you to not come to his home dressed.
    If you asked me, and I absolutely know you have not, I would suggest you wait a week or two to give him a chance to think and let the matter settle in his mind. Then go visit again, but not dressed! He was obviously uncomfortable with you dressed, but ha has liked you as a male friend intil now. Give him a chance to see you again and talk to you in the form which he is accustomed to and with which he recognices you as his old friend. Let the subject come up naturally without forcing it, maybe dont even bring it up on this next visit if he doesn't. Let him see that your friendship is most important to you.
    You know by now that the surprice "take it or leave it" approach was not well received, so maybe give him a chance in a more gentle manner.
    Burning a bridge takes only one match .... building a new one takes a lot of effort.

    Hugs
    Suzie

  6. #31
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    Congratulations, Bobbi! You have won over Christine as a advocate and your ally. She suggested you buy a new dress and I know you did, but how about taking advantage of the situation and asking Christine to help you find exactly the right dress? Maybe you can strengthen the relationship with her and turn a cloud into sunshine. Just a thought. She might love the opportunity to become your mentor. Personally, I would love that and am envious of those cders who have such gg mentors.

  7. #32
    Platinum Member Crissy 107's Avatar
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    Bobbi, I think Suzie Petersen has made some good points to think about. You have certainly made great progress but you were bound to hit a bump in the road and it’s name is Charles. I really think this can and will be overcome, take some time and look at it from all angles.
    Crissy

  8. #33
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    It’s funny how that works. It’s funny how people work! The ones that I thought would be most understanding were not and many of the ones I thought for sure would be gone forever have been the “Its no big deal friends”

  9. #34
    Senior Member kayegirl's Avatar
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    Bobbi, I do think that Suze makes a very valid point. This last weekend we visited and stayed with our best friends. This couple were the first of my friends that I came out to, something like 10 years ago now. Whilst both are supportive, I would not visit en femme, unless asked to do so.
    On another point, I have looked at several properties in France, even got very close to purchasing, in each and every case I have been put off by the ex pats, and their "must create a corner of Britain" attitude.

  10. #35
    Aspiring Member abbiedrake's Avatar
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    I couldn't disagree more strongly with Suzie.

    Losing a friendship is a nuclear option, sure. But some things are too important.

    So if the friendship dies, let's say Charles digs his heels in with Christine, just imagine the words he'll have to speak to justify his position. Bobbi can say 'Sadly a man I thought was a friend just can't accept this important part of who I am'. Charles? 'Our friendship is over cos Bob is not the man I thought'. And that's the best scenario he could use! Screw Charles. To accede to his wishes would be to endorse his bigotry.

    If Bobbi had been gay and Charles had said 'Well don't bring your bf to MY house'. Would that have been fine also? Nah.

    Either he comes to his senses or Bobbi, I suggest either continuing and even strengthening your relationship with Christine, as Mary suggests, or cut ties with both.

    At the end of the day life's far too short for either of you to waste the other's time.

    And Kayegirl, I agree about expats. In fact I'd go as fact as to say that Charles' small-mindedness might not be disconnected from his being an expat. Too many of them have very entrenched attitudes. Others like my wife fully assimilate. This IMHO is how expatriotism should be.

  11. #36
    Gold Member Helen_Highwater's Avatar
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    Bobbi,

    Reading yoyr post I was left wondering where Chas's words came from. He's seen you dressed before and it seems the only difference is you've explained why you dress and that you're not Gay, separating gender from sexuality.

    It's perhaps been the case that he's always been uncomfortable with your dressing but never been in the position to express his thoughts whereas his wife has no such issues.

    It'd been good to be a fly on the wall in that house after you'd left! I suspect words may have been said.

    You're right to carry on visiting, Christine is your friend and you shouldn't loose that friendship because of a fuddy duddy old fart of an English man. Also given time it might help Chas realise the stupidity and let's face it, outright rudeness, of his remarks. Who knows, an apology may even be forthcoming?
    Last edited by Helen_Highwater; 08-28-2019 at 08:05 AM.

  12. #37
    Gold Member Alice Torn's Avatar
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    Susze makes good sense, i think. We cannot force friends to accept everything or agree with us on everything. I have made that mistake. Petty soon, i have very few close friends. WE have to accept that people, even close friends will not like everything about us, or always agree. Humans will always let us down sometimes. It is the human condition, sadly. And we all do it at times. no one is perfect, in this difficult temporary life.
    Last edited by Alice Torn; 08-28-2019 at 07:26 AM.

  13. #38
    Aspiring Member abbiedrake's Avatar
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    Alice, to clarify my somewhat strident post earlier I would never advocate destroying a friendship over a difference of opinion. On the contrary, I have very close relationships with people that I have pretty strong differences with.

    However, none has ever told me not to come to their house over it. Some issues are too fundamental to who we are to be shelved as a simple difference of opinion.

    Freedom of speech and opinion, and the sovereignty of ones5home are all important, and rights I would defend ferociously. But Bobbi has a right to her human dignity, a right that is abrogated by Chuck's bigotry.

    Any friend who makes ultimata over differences of opinion, large or small, is not much of a friend. And this being a VERY large part of Bobbi's human identity I believe it would be the greater of two evils to accede to Chuck's demand.

    But hey that's me. Bobbi will indubitably make the right call for herself.
    Last edited by char GG; 08-29-2019 at 09:09 PM. Reason: English only please

  14. #39
    Silver Member Bobbi46's Avatar
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    Thank you all good advice all round, I have decided to let the dust settle for a little while before I visit again, it will give Charles perhaps some time to reevaluate what he said to me. It is more than just a little bit but Christine was quiet vehement to Charles in what he said to me so given time there should,I hope be some leeway with Charles. Certainly I am not gpoing to cast them adrift like throwing salt over ones shoulder but now on the verge of dressing 24/7 I think I could find myself feeling uncomfortable having to be in drab knowing it is against my inner feelings.
    But sure I need to tread carefully with Charles.

    [SIZE=1]- - - Updated - - -[/SIZE]

    Udate
    This afternoon I visited Charles and Christine mainly Christine and had a lovely chat with her it transpires that in fact she is not now totally on side with this and after thinking about it all although i was the one to offer it she was pleased that I am respecting their wishes in that when I visit them sadly I will have to be in drab. but that will be a small price to pay and rather that than to sacrifice a few years of friendship over dressing. A bit of a ballancing act and whereas they respect what i am doing with my life I too have to respect theirs which has resulted in this very nice and amicable result.
    So I am well pleased they are more at ease and I think things can move forward now as normal.
    Last edited by Bobbi46; 08-29-2019 at 09:24 AM.
    I started life a lost man now I am a found woman

  15. #40
    Aspiring Member abbiedrake's Avatar
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    I'm glad you are OK with the situation, Bobbi.

    Personally though I think it's a high price for their continued friendship. A friendship, Incidentally, that will frequently be coloured by them knowing and having seen Bobbi. You think Charles WON'T be shuddering, remembering you dressed?

    As you progress to 24/7 dressing what are you gonna do? You're out doing your stuff then you have to change to visit them. Or hastily 'Bob up' cos they're popping over? Which is another point. They'll expect you to be Bob should they come to your place. That's so not right, but I guarantee that's the expectation. Assuming of course that they visit you. I can't help thinking things are a little one-sided.

    I say all this purely as a matter of concern and love for a friend. I've appreciated your words to me in the 9 months I've been here. I hope you read no disrespect of your decision in the above. None is intended.

    And so back to my original sentiment. I hope things work out well, my friend.

  16. #41
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    Bobbi ,
    It's possibly time to step back and give them both a little space , Suzie Perterson does raise a valid point that it's their home and their rules . I know it's a very small communty so they will be aware of you coming and going as Bobbi , so meeting them on neutral territory has to be on your terms but the more you're out the more you will feel comfortable as Bobbi , they will pick up on that . Floating back and forth gets harder or that is how I find it and making too many exceptions could undermine your confidence eventually , it does become a case of you win some and loose some but your are really finding Bobbi now so keep going .

  17. #42
    Silver Member Bobbi46's Avatar
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    Suzie indeed raised a VERY valid point indeed, friendships over here are quite different to friendships in ones mother country. In ones original country one could take the view of " I am a committed full time dresser and if my lifestyle is too much for you to handle, so be it" and one could drop that friendship out of the window and move on, over here we expats are few and far between, solid friendships are cherished and kept. Losing the friendship of a couple here, one is then short of a good friendship with little if any chance of finding and nurturing a new friendship.
    Taking this into account I took on board Suzie's advice, visited Charles and Christine and in fact discovered that contrary to the initial conversation Christine too was disturbed by events. They have helped me hugely in the past, they take me out to lunch and things and we get on well so I told Christine that I would heed their wishes and not be dressed in front of them in their house,a small price to pay in a way but but one which keeps my friendship with them alive and on a firm footing.Also they are here for a such a short time and the need to be in drab maybe for only three times through out there 6 months stay here in France.
    Sure it will be hard to be in drab seeing as I am so close to full time dressing but something which I think has to be.
    I started life a lost man now I am a found woman

  18. #43
    Septuagenerian member Carole's Avatar
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    Well done Bobbi for displaying that great British attribute - Compromise. Whilst you have respected your friends' right to how people are expected to behave etc in their home, they too would appear to respect your right to dress as you wish outside of their home. As you say it is only for a couple of occasions during their stay in the village; those of us not in transition inevitably do have to revert to male mode at times to appease the non-understanding people of this world.
    Last edited by Carole; 08-29-2019 at 04:19 PM. Reason: Typos
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  19. #44
    New "old" girl Suzie Petersen's Avatar
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    Dear Bobbi,

    I am glad to hear the next visit went well. It was probably also good that you leaned about Christine's concerns at this point, instead of thinking that she was fully accepting already.
    Give it time and they might come around. As it is often said here when people talk about coming out to a spouse or a friend, Go Slow and give them a chance to learn and understand at their own pace.
    Life is about mutual respect, not about always getting things your way.

    Same as with breaking this news to a spouse, you can help them learn by guiding them to reading material that is valuable and appropriate. As most people know, if they go do an internet search on their own, they might get a very wrong impression of this topic.
    Maybe next time you see them, ask if it would be OK that you bring them some reading material.

    Hugs
    Suzie

  20. #45
    Silver Member Micki_Finn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobbi46 View Post
    Losing the friendship of a couple here, one is then short of a good friendship with little if any chance of finding and nurturing a new friendship.
    If they can’t accept you for who you are, is it really a “good friendship”? Sounds more like “acquaintanceship”

  21. #46
    Gold Member Helen_Highwater's Avatar
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    Bobbi,

    Were you able to bottom out the nature of what was actually troubling to Chris and Chas? We can all be guilty of prejudging something, an irrational fear and the only quick analogy I can think of is when someone says;

    " I don't like Chinese food"
    "Have you tried Chinese food?"
    "No"
    "Here, try this"
    "Oh that's nice!"

    C & C could be under some illusion, some misinformation that leads them to find your life choices threatening. It could be religious and that's a difficult one to overcome. It could be they've read in some gutter press article transgender = pedophile or some other such nonsense. So understanding their position makes it easier to deal with this sort of situation should it arise in the future.
    Last edited by Helen_Highwater; 08-30-2019 at 12:38 PM.
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  22. #47
    Silver Member Bobbi46's Avatar
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    It's not done and dusted as yet! although I ceded some ground to C&C I do have concerns about having done that,. 1) I am denying myself of being my true identity, 2) Most of the locals up in the village have seen, spoken to me and so forth, I feel, to appear at odd times in drab will send out mixed messages regarding my true identity, am I all femme or am I half and half. regarding the latter no way.
    C&C are here till the end of September. I found out from Christine that Charles comes from a very conservative upbringing butI I think it goes deeper in that I now think he is totally inflexible add to this I think he has exerted his views on Christine and thus she is now is aligned with him.
    I think this attitude towards me and our community is very blinkered.
    In a way it begs the thought how accepting are they? very little it would it would seem now. In a way does it make me doubt the trueness of their friendship towards me? yes in that they are sort of forcing a position on me in able to keep the friendship going.
    In hindsight I don't think this friendship can hang together completely I will have to wait and see but I what I am not going to do is curtail my dressing just to suit one/two people. My dressing means so much to me its been an incredible journey so far and not over by a long shot. What has happened with C&C is a slight blip and I may as yet lose them as friends as I say i will wait and see but I have to be ME.
    I started life a lost man now I am a found woman

  23. #48
    Aspiring Member abbiedrake's Avatar
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    That they're only with you a short while longer is a good thing. But what happens 6 months further down the line when they come back for the next 6?

    Like I said previously we wouldn't be having this conversation if you were gay and they'd prohibited your boyfriend in their home.

    Can I ask, do you think that you were so taken aback by Christine's shift, rather than the one you anticipated from Charles, that you too readily agreed to their demands?

  24. #49
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    Abbie,
    I find women are more accepting initially but may have second thoughts , men on the whole make their choice and tend to stick to it .

    Bobbi ,
    It's more than an even bet that Christine has aligned with Charles , after alll she's married to him not you . I still have a nagging feeling that you have touched on a nerve with Charles .

    I don't want to get into the MIAD debate but maybe you've witnessed first hand what a difference the inbetween state makes , if you're more comfortable with all or nothing situation then stick with it , as you say it's taken an incedible journey to achieve what you have so far .

  25. #50
    Silver Member Bobbi46's Avatar
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    Possibly I was taken aback by Charle's first comment but thought that it could be got by but with the apparent turn round of Christines stance which incidentaly came after my offer to acquiesce in respect of their house, but now having had time to think about the whole thing I am steadily coming round to think to my self I cannot give in like this, if I do will there be more giving in's? and if so where will it all end.
    It is beginning to fly against my deepest thoughts and beliefs so at some point I will formulate a responce and when I do which no doubt will be a visit to their house I will be dressed.
    As I mentioned early the more I think about it all the more I think I cannot go half and half just please a couple of part time holiday visitors. Somehow I will have to make them see it from my point of view and how their request/demand is actually going against my beliefs and needs in life.
    Last edited by Bobbi46; 08-31-2019 at 06:46 AM.
    I started life a lost man now I am a found woman

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