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Thread: An unpleasant surprise I never expected to get

  1. #1
    Silver Member Bobbi46's Avatar
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    An unpleasant surprise I never expected to get

    Many years ago as a couple then, we met here in our area an expat English couple with whom we visited and they us. When my ex dumped me suddenly in 2013 and just before, she went to them to say good bye and told them I had no intention of visiting them ( I had said no such thing) however fast forward to the present day, my life now is pleasant dressing on a daily basis, being warmly welcomed in my local shop, liked by my neighbours and by and large shunned by nobdy at all.
    Near this expat couple I discovered an English butcher and on coming home one day I realised I was close to the friends. This was now 6-8 weeks ago and I discovered on going there that he had been in out of hospital with a whole host of problems and was about to go back, his wife does not drive, they have few friends so over the next six or so weeks twice a week sometimes I did 175Km round trip so she could see her husband and during this time I told her I dressed and so forth. A couple of weeks ago I learnt he was out of hospital and at home, getting on very well so this Tuesday I visited them dressed and this is when the fireworks took off!
    I explained the why's and the wherefore's of our world and what made us tick not mentioning names of course, why I dressed, how I came to be the way I am and this is when things got tense, he told me he could accept lesbians and lesbian couples also gay men and gay couples he also said he could accept a lesbian couple either having or adopting a baby but could not accept a gay man couple doing the same and I countered this with wha'ts the difference between a child having two "mummy's or a child with two "daddies" again he would not accept this. Then it got political blaming politicains with the way we are now the worst was blaming Elton John for opening the flood gates for same sex marriage. My reasoning to him countering this was rejected totally out of hand! I was getting absiolutely nowhere and realised I was trying to change the opinion of a very narrow minded homophobic bigot.
    For the most the conversation petered out to be replaced by trying to sort out his car which would not start, his French is next to non existent but I gave him what words he needed to call someone out and that is when he exploded! saying " you told me this and that and so forth" regarding the car, in the end I said I do not know any more, by this point he was red in the face with fury, stamped off to his computer room and I went to his wife, said I am going home and left.
    I was totally shaken by all of this and for the first time experienced an almost hatred of the LGBT community as a whole if he had said anything more rude or derogitory I was more than ready to take legal action against him, Instead I will let him stew and he can go and find someone else to help him Thi is somethng I wil not stand up to being treated like this .
    What happend is quite a contrast to the warm way I have been received in my hamlet, up in the village and the shops I go to, not to mention almost the whole population of French people round me who it seems are the more accepting of our way of life on a whole.
    I started life a lost man now I am a found woman

  2. #2
    Platinum Member kimdl93's Avatar
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    Good idea to let him stew about it. Its hard to say why he holds the beliefs he espoused, and maybe it does not matter. The world will go on, and one hopes, continue to be more accepting of the many ways ways people can love other people.

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  3. #3
    Junior Member Jessifox85's Avatar
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    Wow. He really shouldn't bring Elton into this.. but really, even though I know this generally is not the norm, it's the reason I'm terrified to go out dressed or tell anyone.
    Bobbie, I am so sorry for you, I'm sure regardless of your clothing choices or lifestyle you are still a good person inside. Otherwise you would have never tried to reconnect. No one deserves that kind of treatment for any disagreement they may have over what I would call petty issues. I hope you just forgive him in your heart and move on.

  4. #4
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    It's best to avoid toxic people. Some wallow in their ignorance and bigotry. If one is going to argue with them just make your point briefly and be done with them.I'm curious as to his wife's point of view. In actuality you were extending yourself to her on the hospital visits. She may be very appreciative of your efforts and does not agree with her husband.

  5. #5
    Silver Member Micki_Finn's Avatar
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    On the other hand, you walked into a man’s house and sat there arguing that his opinion was wrong. Not to say that it wasn’t, but there’s a time and a place, and in someone’s home is not the place to argue with them. Also, this type of argument rarely changes anyone’s mind EVER. Did you really think he was going to suddenly have an epiphany and suddenly not be prejudiced?

  6. #6
    Yeah Ok like whatever Tracii G's Avatar
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    A man's home is his castle never argue in the confines of his castle.
    You wouldn't appreciate it your home either would you?
    Things like this are never easy.
    I would just exit out of the friendship at this point and call it done for good.
    Last edited by Tracii G; 10-31-2019 at 06:27 PM.
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  7. #7
    Silver Member Bobbi46's Avatar
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    Micki,
    I did not actually argue with him more to that fact that I quite validly pointed out what was the difference between a lesbian couple raising a child and Gay man couple raising a child, his only take on that was to say he did not agree with gay men raising children that was one of the hypocritical points he was putting over without any real justification as to the reason why he thought it was wrong. he also would not agree or accept the reasons behind our gender differences he was of the opinion that we all chose and wanted to be the way are not realising or accepting that none of us CHOSE to be this way, we were born to be the way we are as was told to me by a very eminent doctor friend of mine who lectures at the faculty of medicine at a very big university hospital near where I live.
    This expat "friend of mind could not and would not accept pretty much about everything I said, I never actually argued but explained the way we are.
    basically his outlook on the whole of the LGBT community is narrow minded hypocritical and basically homophobic. it his type whe generate the ill feelings about us.
    His wife prior to this however was and still is wholely onside and acceptable to the whole spectrum of our world and how we tick because of the totally open conversations I had with on the many trips I made to take her to see her husband at the hospital.
    What I di not think about him was that he would be so narrow minded and totally anti towards our community as a whole. As I say I now realise he is a total homophobe.

    Stephanie
    Again I did not actually argue with him rather I explained everything to him first that was when his very wrong opinion appeared, he actually backed off a bit when i explained that Elton John had nothing to do with this it was the mere fact of the need to encompass all sorts of gender into a free speaking world not to mention his view of "what about gay politicians and policemen" this was outrageous as we all know, if I had countered that fully then there would no longer have been a discussion it would have turned into a very nasty exchange of words which would have acheived nothing.
    During this discourse his wife said absolutely nothing! I think she is to a large extent totally under his thumb. Although prior to this conversation she was totally in acceptance and full of understanding about our world as whole.

    Jessifox85
    I totally agree it was wrong to bring Elton John into this, he did actually agree with me when I said that the laws allowing same sex marriage were not pushed forward totally and singularly by Elton John but rather by society in general and the need change to encompass all gender variations just as the same in England when the law preventing sexual acts between men was repealed. I have got over his retrograde anti LGBT attitude it will take me longer to forgive him over his fury at me because I did not enough French words for him to call out a garage for the car, that was the bit that broke the camels back with him, the way he roared at me for my lack of french Language, what he does not realise is that I probably have moreFfrench than he will ever have and even for me when I get stuck I do a google translation, but he just flew right off the handle at me, that's what did it for and I left quietly.
    One should not be put off going out by bigots like this man was I have been going out now for about 2 years now but properly since July this year I have yet be met with open hostility, rather al i get is the occasional glance nothing to get het up with or off putting the looks are more of interest than hate or hostility. I think i am living in a very liberal minded area apart from certain bigots.

    kimdl93
    Absolutely what he has done is ruined a completely rekindled friendship, one which previously we were going to a fish and chip restaurant but that will not happen now, he has burnt his bridge completely; I am not contacting him he will have to contact me and apologise fully first before there is any moving forward. I feel for his downtrodden wife, i think she gets told what to do.
    Last edited by Bobbi46; 10-31-2019 at 07:03 PM.
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  8. #8
    Platinum Member kimdl93's Avatar
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    I do agree that disagreeing with a bigot, in their home or otherwise, is fruitless. Its fruitless everywhere. That being said, I don’t get the impression that you started this altercation, and frankly, there have been times when I pushed back against bigotry even when it was pointless to do so. And I think its ok

    I recall making what, as a 19 year old, were needlessly bigoted statements about an obviously troubled, young gay man in our (Army) company. A much wiser member of the same company responded by saying ?why does it bother you so much?? He had a good point, and now some 47 years later, his admonition still rings in my ears. And I know why...because I knew I was gender-variant (we didn?t have a name for it then), which in those days was considered equivalent to gay. As the Bard might say, Me thinks thou dost protest too much. I certainly did.
    Last edited by kimdl93; 10-31-2019 at 07:08 PM.

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  9. #9
    Silver Member Bobbi46's Avatar
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    No indeed I definately did not the start the altercation it was very much one side him against me, the reason why the discussion petered out was I could see I was getting nowhere my opinions meant nothing to him right from the beginning, I dont think he believed a word I said;
    His red faced anger against me was because of such unwarranted anger towards me I was unable to think clearly of the French words he would need to get his car sorted out, that is where things got nasty, from him not me.
    Some people there is no changing.
    I started life a lost man now I am a found woman

  10. #10
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    Hi Bobbi , Sometimes people that we think are our friends show their true colours, Good Riddance .

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  11. #11
    Senior Member Allison Chaynes's Avatar
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    Bobbi, maybe another way to think about it is that he hadn't really been around LGBT before and you might have an opportunity to change his views, albeit not by arguing, but by just being a helpful neighbor/friend if that's still possible. Sometimes seeing that something you think is evil by being around them firsthand, is how to change minds, even if just a little.
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  12. #12
    Lady By Choice Leslie Langford's Avatar
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    Not to make any excuses for the guy, Bobbie - and maybe on some level he actually is a total jerk with no offsetting redeeming qualities - but could it also be that given his many recent medical issues, his cognitive functions were somehow impaired in the process, causing a radical personality change to develop?

  13. #13
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    I'm so sorry you had to experience this. How awful!

    ... and how very scary. It just goes to show how deeply ingrained some ideas are - homophobia in your friend's case, which I'm sure forms part of his identity because it is so deeply ingrained. And the scary part is that so many other things are just as deeply ingrained, for example religious and political beliefs, and racism; so deeply ingrained that they are indeed a core part of so many people's identities and therefore can't be changed! No matter how you try to reason with people who hold these rather narrow homophobic, religious, political, and racist beliefs, I don't have any hope they'd ever be able to see the truth or be objective. So sad. And terrifying.
    Reine

  14. #14
    Silver Member Bobbi46's Avatar
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    Allison
    I think this is where I am with him, no I don't suppose for a minute he has actually met anybody from our movement and quite likely is basing his opinion on rubbish information he has read or more than likely heard. Add to this his totally unwarranted rude outburst that is the bit that gets me and that is the reason I want nothing more to do with him. I tried as politely as possible to refute what he was saying about lesbians and gay people and I was getting nowhere, he has fixed notions and that's that.
    Lesley
    His medical issues are largely over three weeks before coming home he was not under any medication at all I just think we have here a man with fixed ideas as to how the world should rotate and anybody else who in fact has the correct idea is nothing to his mind.
    He is an out and out bigot plain and simple, if his wife rings me at all sure I will talk with her after all she was more understanding and accepting than her husband would be in a million years, but if he rings me he must apologise for his angry outburst. I have met many people in my time but never come across somebody like him.
    he is an out and out jerk in my opinion.
    I started life a lost man now I am a found woman

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    Goddess-In-Training Macey's Avatar
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    Bobbi, I am heartbroken for you. You're such a sweetheart, how could anyone treat you this way?

    At any rate, never argue with a zealot. Even if you happen to AGREE with them, they will STILL tell you that you're wrong!
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  16. #16
    Curmudgeon Member donnalee's Avatar
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    "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and irritates the pig." - Robert Heinlein
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  17. #17
    Silver Member Bobbi46's Avatar
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    Macey
    Thank you for your kind words, I never set out with any intention to cause a ruckus but also on ferlection i am staggered by his total lack of understanding or even to begin to understand my explanation. I think Steve had made up his mind long before I arrived!
    Like the Phoenix I will rise again!
    donnalee,
    A very good saying! and pig is what Steve is!
    I started life a lost man now I am a found woman

  18. #18
    Aspiring Member GretchenM's Avatar
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    Yes, Macey, I have found that often to be true, especially in this highly polarized world. If you don't agree 100% then you are 100% wrong. Perhaps some people have such a poor self image and lack of confidence in what they actually believe, they have to be forceful and dominating. Some day that may bite them in the butt.

    But, Bobbie, the main thing is that you reached out to this couple and expended a lot of effort to help them out. That came from empathy, compassion, etc. All primary traits of the feminine. Then he turns around and bites your leg off for being you. I would just write them off and never have contact again. But perhaps the wife might contact you sometime to apologize for her husband's behavior. That could be a ticklish situation if she is trying to turn it around and wants to thank you for helping her and maybe wants to meet you half way (geographically speaking). Or be more friendly toward you. But perhaps her husband has driven a lot of those feminine behavior traits out of his wife and she obeys him no matter what. Happens a lot in those kinds of relationships.

    I also think the fact that the guy wants to live in France but doesn't want to speak the language of France speaks volumes to his view of himself and his position in the world. "I don't speak French so all of you who do need to learn English so we can communicate."

  19. #19
    Silver Member Helen_Highwater's Avatar
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    Bobbie,

    An English man abroad. Living in another country yet it seems unwilling to learn at least the basics of the language. I can imagine his hostility to an immigrant living in the UK who couldn't speak English.

    You're faced with a bigot. Plain and simple. His acceptance of Gay people I suspect is grudging at best.

    Don't take it to heart. We all know there are neanderthal knuckle draggers out there. There are a few with whom a reasoned conversation is possible, others not so.

    I'd phone occasionally just to check upon his health, offer assistance and if either treated poorly or rejected out of hand, leave it there and walk away.

    You have a good life created for you. Enjoy that after all, you can't fix stupid.

  20. #20
    Silver Member CynthiaD's Avatar
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    Some people are idiots. You can’t change them, so avoid them. Remember to return good for evil. Being nice is the best revenge.

  21. #21
    Gold Member Alice Torn's Avatar
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    I think the man has been through a lot of stress and illness, for one thing. You are not gay but maybe he equates CD as gay. Best to not argue. Live and let live. A lot of old fashioned people can be stubborn, but we are all a bit that. In some countries, if you were exposed as a Cd, it would mean arrest, prison, or death, though.
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  22. #22
    Platinum Member kimdl93's Avatar
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    The observations about health issues have resonated with me. I know I can be needlessly argumentative when I feel well, and annoyingly so when I?m tired or ill. A wiser person once told me that if he a serious falling out with a family member or friend that he goes a bit out of his way to keep in contact and always leaves the door open.

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  23. #23
    Silver Member Bobbi46's Avatar
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    Pros and cons for both sides of moving forward my feelings are to let things slide, the ball is in their court Steve is the one who needs to apologise, his manners if he has any seriously eluded him on Tuesday afternoon. Pat is the one I feel sorry for a bit, she is a nice lady, weak, meak and mild she will do what she is told to do no two ways about it, and I do not think there will ever be a major turn round with Steve his anti gay views are totally abhorrent to me and that alone will be a stumbling block. But as I have mentioned earlier I will not be the one doing the contacting it is all down to them now, I am done.
    I started life a lost man now I am a found woman

  24. #24
    Member SaraLin's Avatar
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    Bobbi46,

    I am not going to even begin to try to defend this bigot - but I think I'll put on my devil's advocate hat for just a moment.

    I noticed something that was unsaid in your OP. Maybe you can clear it up for me.

    You mention that you'd told his wife about your dressing. So - that must mean that you were visiting in male mode.

    What I DON'T see mentioned is where you ever told the husband before "springing it" on him by showing up dressed.

    Did he have any advance notice? You could have probably spared yourself a lot of trouble if you knew he was "one of those kind."

    and - (I'm sure he's wondering too)
    Had you spent any "girl-time" with his wife while he was in the hospital?
    If so, I'll bet his warped mind could conjure up all kinds of sick imaginings.

    Ok, taking the advocate hat off again, I'll add
    All in all, it's sad to lose friends, but you're better off without that kind of person in your life.

  25. #25
    Silver Member Crissy 107's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kimdl93 View Post
    The observations about health issues have resonated with me. I know I can be needlessly argumentative when I feel well, and annoyingly so when I?m tired or ill. A wiser person once told me that if he a serious falling out with a family member or friend that he goes a bit out of his way to keep in contact and always leaves the door open.
    I think leaving the door open is good advice at least in this instance. I do feel people deserve a 2nd chance at the very least.
    I had a disagreement with a good friend earlier this year and could have walked away from the years of being friends but I cut him some slack and things have worked out.
    Crissy

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