Seriously, in the TS forum?Originally Posted by GaleWarning
Seriously, in the TS forum?
Listen carefully to what is said, quite often you can hear what is not being said
The joy of correcting a mistake can bring pain to another
I'm guessing that Robin started out life as a male, Nigella.
She may have thought she did...
I don't want to derail another members thread, so have copied the posts here and now...
... Discuss
Listen carefully to what is said, quite often you can hear what is not being said
The joy of correcting a mistake can bring pain to another
Hello Ladies,
In point of fact, I?ve known since I had a sense of self that I was in the wrong body. I?m one of those that have always known.
But, I was certainly force fed male culture and understand its rules better than the rules between women.
I was never ?male?. I took the statement as referring to socialization rather than a statement that I am or was a male.
Regardless of what everyone thought, or what I looked like, I was never male.
I first took offense when I saw the reference to "we" but then it occurred to me that perhaps her pockets were full of pet mice.
I did not respond on the other thread out of respect for the OP.
Last edited by Jeri Ann; 11-14-2019 at 02:52 PM.
I was never male. From my earliest memories I related to femininity. That said in the sixties you learn to hide that feeling. Then in the seventies if you explored those feelings you were deviant and a candidate for shock therapy. The eighties I began to question my deviancy and began fully becoming Maria in a hidden place. Jump to present. The faux male persona had become toxic to continued life. So about three yrs ago I let Maria drive. It has been nothing but steady growth and increased happiness since then.
I am so glad others will not have to live an entire life before living as their true self.
I am a late comer to all of this, but... I may have been born with a male body just to survive birth as I would of had 3 older sisters if they had lived! As I said, I had the male body but that little girl throwing her dress over her head long ago started it all! I wanted a dress or to be that girl way back then but it got submerged in the societal norms of the time! I was a perfect acting male all the way to 65! I figured it out and I really am not male! I figure that the last hormonal wash on the brain was estrogen and not testostrogen! I am Lana Mae! Hugs LM
Life is worth living!
"Foxy lady! You look so good!!" Jimi Hendrix
What if someone was amab, lived half their life as a man without gender issues or dysphoria, then decided to transition and live as a woman?
OK, but here's a position I generally take on forums that aren't specifically LGBT forums but where LGBT issues commonly arise:
I emphasize that I was not born male. I was born transgender. What I am today is what I've always been. When I came out, whatever I might do with my body or appearance, I'm not changing myself. I'm expressing myself.
The reason I take this position is to counter things that we so commonly hear: e.g., "born male, but identifies as female". It's this sort of thing which (besides being just plain wrong, in my view) our opponents interpret as, "He's really a man, and just identifying as a woman doesn't make him one."
On such forums, I generally refer to myself as "transgender", rather than as a "woman" or even a "transgender woman". I want to emphasize that transgender is what I've always been. But there are transpeople who want to be regarded simply as a "man" or a "woman" without any reference at all to the "transgender" part. So in a way I feel myself caught between two fires. It's a problem I don't really know how to resolve.
Yes, Nikki, that was definitely me! I was a happy and contented male. Now I am a fulltime female and very happy and content now too. I do not take offense where none was intended. People are human, right? Humans are not perfect, right? If it was intended, I will defend myself as best I can.
I can?t imagine why, or how, a man without gender issues or dysphoria would decide to transition and live as a woman.
the original posts are confusing me. what is the frame of this thread?
Seems to be about early identifying?
this morning I awoke pondering my own experience and my f2m son's. From my own life journey i know that when my sister was born I was so raged, cos we were effectively in the wrong bodies, although of course that was inexpressible at the time. I then know that my life experience was having friends with no gender bias as such until the rise of hormones circa 9-10-11. Then, I could not identify with the male-pattern behaviours, and over time preferred female company. Suppression and denial ran deep though, and so it was not until my 50's that I broke through to see my truth, in part thanks to this forum for sure.
I'm not into political correctness, but to refer to us as "as males" feels wrong. "As humans with mismatched physical attributes and hormones" might be a considerably better if longer frame. Perhaps if a person wants to talk this way: "from the perspective of being in a male body with male hormones identifying as female" (MBMHIF).
and completely concur with Jeri-Ann. I will refer to that we had another thread where I posted about the spectrum of "away-from" and "towards" behavioural orientations. Dysphoria is at the away-from end, but a towards program could just as well enable an inner woman to self-realise.
xxx
Last edited by pamela7; 11-15-2019 at 07:07 AM. Reason: more
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJFyz73MRcg
I used to believe this, now I'm in the company of many tiggers. A tigger does not wonder why she is a tigger, she just is a tigger.
thanks to krististeph: tigger = TG'er .. T-I-GG-er
I'd agree completely with this. We are in effect talking about a cisgender man here. So why would he want to live as a woman? It's a contradiction in terms. In fact, I think this reflects the thinking of people who have no conception of what it is to be transgender: they think a transperson is a man who somehow wants to be a woman or a woman who somehow wants to be a man, but they're thinking of a cisgender man or cisgender woman. They don't actually know what it is to be transgender. We're not cisgender. We didn't start out cisgender, and we never will be cisgender.
My comment at the start of this thread was occasioned by another member who was living as a female in the workplace appearing to take umbrage when a female colleague said, loudly, ?Nice legs!?. That member stated that they found the comment inappropriate.
In the present PC climate, where males are becoming increasingly wary of doing anything at all, which might be considered by females to be offensive, men would not pass a comment (certainly not in the workplace!) about a female colleague?s legs, for fear of a sexual harassment charge. It would be a very risky (not risqu?) thing to do.
Now, my question to all you ladies on this thread is this:
Were you ever ?conditioned? to understand that there are certain behaviours which are inappropriate for males to display towards females?
And a follow-up question is this:
As a woman, how should you feel about being complimented on your nice legs by another woman?
I understand, from having spent many years on this forum, that we are all part of an extremely wide TS spectrum. Nevertheless, the two questions I have posed seem to be relevant, regardless of your own particular situation.
My answers to these questions are as follows:
1. Particularly as a teacher, I have been made very, very aware of the need to be careful when dealing with any student or colleague. For example, I make sure that I am never alone with a student or a female colleague. I have been ?conditioned?.
2. My position is that a nice compliment from another female is an affirmation of acceptance of who we are and what we are trying to achieve. I feel good and far from offended when I receive a compliment on my appearance from another woman.
Over to you ?
i'm not sure "conditioned" would be the right word, but yes, it was clear to me to not comment on other people - of either gender. I'm having to unlearn this to make compliments about other women now, because it is an essential social trade.
As for my legs, they were better before HRT - seems women envy men's legs!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJFyz73MRcg
I used to believe this, now I'm in the company of many tiggers. A tigger does not wonder why she is a tigger, she just is a tigger.
thanks to krististeph: tigger = TG'er .. T-I-GG-er
I like the way you frame this, and I agree with you..
The simple answer is that there is solution.... and people who claim "here is the answer" are basically imposing their definitions, their classifications, their biases on all of the rest..
It's interesting because on one level everybody "just knows" what a man is and what a woman is.... but that's a construct..
now that this is challenged by our society its a really good thing for people that can't internalize this and feel alive and actualized in that construct, but it raises a whole lot of confusion and many people are completely ignorant because they can't get over the "just know" part of it.
and Im aware this is just MY bias, and its influenced by all the experiences I suffered over the years..
On another question, the pill I want is the cisgender pill.. If I was offered a male cisgender or trans female pill, I'd honestly consider the cisgender pill...I cant say for sure, but I suffered alot and there is no magic to being female or male...maybe the best pill would actually be one that made you totally and OK with YOURSELF regardless of whether you are male female cis trans or anything in between..
I am real
Hmmn. Interesting difference. I actually like having my trans brain-mind; best of both worlds. I'd take the body-pill, but once we accept ourselves we know things neither CIS genders do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJFyz73MRcg
I used to believe this, now I'm in the company of many tiggers. A tigger does not wonder why she is a tigger, she just is a tigger.
thanks to krististeph: tigger = TG'er .. T-I-GG-er
@kaitlyn
that?s funny, because i was just rereading a thread from 2018 about gender euphoria where i wrote i would take the cure pill. 15 months later, with a year of hrt, and i still feel that way. i don?t have a preference as to which sex, i would just prefer to be cis, comfortable in having my sex and gender align, and not deal with any of this.
https://www.crossdressers.com/forums...ender-Euphoria
and i also believe my gender is trans, biased towards the feminine. even though i wish i was a woman, i don’t believe i am one. one of the big reasons i consider myself non-binary.
Last edited by Nikki.; 11-15-2019 at 11:15 AM.
Pam
I think that’s an interesting comment but I would push back a bit
What is the “value” of knowing things cisgender people do not know?
What things?
What is the value of experiencing both sides?
What does best of both worlds mean. I’d say even if that’s true it’s also the worst of both worlds in many ways.
I don’t feel that observing men and copying the way they acted to survive to be of special value
I agree accepting oneself is key but that’s true of all people in all things.
Once you do that it feels so much better to be alive
I agree we all have value and our experiences can be valuable.
but Not all experience or knowledge is inherently valuable.
I know what it’s like to undergo dozens of hrs of painful surgery. What it’s like to have friends pity you. To have people gawk at me
To lose my marriage and distress people I love. Not valuable
If also say that I know what it’s like to earn my peace of mind against the odds and at great cost.
I think that does give me an appreciation of peace of mind that maybe others do not share but frankly I’d have much rather not gone thru that
I’m glad for you and anyone that enjoys being trans. And I enjoy being me just like I think you do.
But i also wish I could have felt this way my whole life
Last edited by Kaitlyn Michele; 11-15-2019 at 03:38 PM.
I am real
Understood, not all experience is valuable nor enjoyable from the perspective of suffering, and we can also learn from them and make a better world.
For me, the value is in communicating, in understanding little things like the relative fragility of female skin, the different awareness required as a result, that tiny things like these are the butterflies flapping the chaos theory of gender expression in clothing, in behaviours, the more sensitive personal response to emotional fields, being more possessed by emotions as a female. There are myriads of such little things which make all the difference, and inform understanding.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJFyz73MRcg
I used to believe this, now I'm in the company of many tiggers. A tigger does not wonder why she is a tigger, she just is a tigger.
thanks to krististeph: tigger = TG'er .. T-I-GG-er
I think how Im looking at it is more practical considerations.
I don't disagree that feeling open to new experiences is valuable on its own...
Im delighted to be where I am now
I am saying that I wouldn't sign up for the whole see it from both sides given the cost and also I don't feel like I ever Saw the other side... it was just confusing and distressing..
I am real
Yes. You're expressing a principle here that I think is very important. Now lots of us, along broad lines, will have very similar experiences in life--but we interpret those experiences differently. This is only to be expected. Normal state of affairs among human beings.
E.g., just recently a girlfriend of mine underwent surgery and said, "Now I'm a woman." Now that's not the way I see things. It isn't just surgery that makes you a woman. But I didn't argue with her. I didn't see any point in it. This is how she interprets her experience. This is how she sees herself. I don't see any right or wrong here. We each see ourselves as individuals.
It's on this score that some transpeople might take me to task. A lot of transgender women, e.g., will state that a transgender woman is every bit as much a woman as a cisgender woman. Now I don't argue with them, but that's simply not the way I feel about myself. I feel that I needed to have been born cisgender female. No if's, and's or but's about it. And I didn't get that. And so I simply cannot persuade myself that I have all that I need.
I've been very lucky. I've found a lot of acceptance among my cisgender women friends. But I nonetheless always feel a certain barrier between them and me. Because of circumstances their life experience has been very different from mine. I simply cannot ignore that difference. I simply cannot tell myself that I'm the same as them. So I do tend to think of myself as transgender or transgender female, rather than simply female. If other transpeople want to argue with my view of myself, I suppose they can, but I can't change the way I think about myself and I don't really see any need to.
I think I can point out, too, that it's on this score that we transpeople as a group take some criticism from our cisgender opponents. They seem to think we should all be the same, and if they see us interpreting our experience differently, they think that we're confused about what it is to be transgender. They don't see that transpeople can be individuals just as cispeople can be.
I'd agree with you that there's no magic to being female or male, but if I were offered a cisgender male pill, there's no way I'd consider it. Again, it comes down to how I see myself. I see this body of mine as a shell I am living in. This me, my "self", is female. Now if you're changing my gender identity, you're changing such a fundamental part of me that you're changing me. And I don't want to change me. I'm OK with me. Now if you were offering me a cisgender female pill, oh, yeah, I'd love to have that one. But if the choice is between cisgender male (not me) and transgender female, then I'll remain me.
One thing I'd say is that a lot of people, particularly men, who complain about political correctness are actually complaining about being required to show basic respect and courtesy to others. There's no reason why men shouldn't be wary about doing stuff that women might consider offensive. Everybody should be concerned about avoiding things that anybody might consider offensive. It is a good idea to think about other people's feelings and to respect them.
"Conditioned"? I don't know. But I did learn that there are certain things that you shouldn't do or say to women. I was OK with that. I wanted to show women respect and not make them feel uncomfortable.
I wouldn't like it at all. I do get compliments fairly often--on my clothing, my nails and my hats in particular. I enjoy such compliments, and I enjoy complimenting other women on such things. It's one thing I enjoy about being out: I have more freedom to compliment other women. But I can't imagine myself complimenting another woman on her legs, and I wouldn't want to hear it from another woman. It strikes me as very out of place.
If there was a cis-male pill there’s no way I’d take it because then I wouldn’t be me anymore. I like the way foxglove put that. I’ve never been a cis male and I don’t want to be. A cis female pill? I’d have to think about that, but I probably would tbh.
But that’s not an option, so I am what I am. And I think of myself as transgender, rather than TS, because I don’t think that changing my anatomy would make me feel any different. (I’m conscious that this is the TS section and many here would really benefit from that, but I’m just explaining *my* perspective).
Last edited by Eemz; 11-15-2019 at 05:50 PM.
I don’t understand the transmedicalist position. Why must someone be dysphoric and suffer in order to legitimize their desire to live in the opposite or different than assigned at birth gender role?
It doesn’t make trans or ts or tg people any less weird to the rest of society by insisting it’s a medical condition, and those without the medical condition are illegitimate.
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