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Thread: dealing with "gender critical"

  1. #1
    Call me Pam pamela7's Avatar
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    dealing with "gender critical"

    I have a person who i've known for 15 years, who I feel should know better given their profession. A man, they express transphobic views through the excuse-lens of "gender critical", which appears to be a form of feminism that refuses access and rights to transwomen wanting to be accepted as women.

    So, what is our response, what are our views, what have you done to debate, challenge, discuss, address these things? because simply cutting off the person won't help educate or shift those biased against us.

    xx Pam
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    I used to believe this, now I'm in the company of many tiggers. A tigger does not wonder why she is a tigger, she just is a tigger.

    thanks to krististeph: tigger = TG'er .. T-I-GG-er

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    Here how many years? LeeAnnRose's Avatar
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    I am guessing on this one, but if your goal is education I would say you need to continue to offer those subtle examples first to soften the mindset. It seems like your associate is reacting in the mindset of hating that which he does not understand. I do know a few people like that and I think tolerance is the best I can do while providing examples of trans positive reinforcement.

    Otherwise, your fight or flight seems to be on the money and it is time to let that part of the relationship go...possibly the whole thing.

  3. #3
    Isn't Life Grand? AllieSF's Avatar
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    I continue doing what I have been doing, being me everyday out and about. TERF's, gender critical people and all the other on the edge anti LGBTQ+ people should be ignored. They want attention and they love confrontations, where most of us are just trying to live normal lives. One way to overcome all the naysayers is to get more of us out in the real world interacting with the general public, even if it is for a short day or night outing. There are more of us out there than even any of us could guess, because most are very secretive about this side of their lives. That alone will give us much more positive results than trying to "defend" ourselves on their own home "TERF"! They have the advantage over most of us there. We have the advantage by just being ourselves in public.

  4. #4
    Silver Member Aunt Kelly's Avatar
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    The TERF's are a very small, very ignorant and fearful minority. I like the idea of ignoring them. The stridor of their protests say more about them than we ever could, even if their ranks have been recently joined by J.K. Rowling. Yes, that J.K. Rowling.
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    This is tough. I?m a feminist for sure, but I think the meaning of that word is lost. So many hyper-feminists (as I call them) are not really out for equality, but rather reshaping women and society to their own ideas. I think this gender critical thing is the same thing. Bc to what I consider a real feminist, male, female, trans or whichever doesn?t matter. All they care about is that equal is equal. It?s sad really. I have daughters that I try so hard to teach about a very positive kind of feminism.

  6. #6
    Platinum Member Teresa's Avatar
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    Pamela,
    Some groups will remain minority ones simply because the majority don't or won't to accept them . Whether they have a valid point or not is irrelevent , some people just like to be different and contentious .

    The issue of gender identity is an unfolding story it is going to happen and groups like this will not stop it . We can't totally ignore them but the bias from a small minority group won't possibly affect most of us . One question it does raise is do we have to accept responsibility for how we present ourselves and to a point represent others or is that giving into these minority groups ? Personally when I'm out in the RW I do feel we have to consider we are responsible for our appearance and actions if we wish to be accpeted in society , I won't intentionally hurt or bring discomfort to others .
    The real me ,no going back.

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    Silver Member Devi SM's Avatar
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    I was a preacher for so many years and always the purpose of my message was to touch hearts abiliting them to change to a better life based on faith.
    Being honest, to impress minds and achieve changes on thinking with words is really useless but a lot of people told me after years that my example had created a ompression onnher minds enough to take in account my words.
    Transfoby is deep fear that the same person ignores and if course is created by ignorance. Without wanting to offend, it's the lack of knowledge of real people from the lgbtq community.
    After all that said, the only thing you can do is never argue with your friend but let them know who you are then wait patiently but don't count on sure changes or good reactions s, as I said, many of them had an unconcious rejection and to work with the unconcious is really hard and difficult.
    Mho.

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    Silver Member Micki_Finn's Avatar
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    Sit it out. Confronting people over their closely held beliefs rarely convinces anyone of anything except that the “other side” are just pushy know-it-all’s trying to force their beliefs on everyone else.

  9. #9
    happy to be her Sarah Charles's Avatar
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    I'd advise keeping your distance if possible. But that isn't always the case. I've found most of the people who hold very strong contrary positions are often forced to think of things a little if you ask them what they are afraid of. Fear drives people in ways that indifference doesn't. Fear can have them build walls or act out in ways that impact others in important ways; physicially, psychologically, socially, financially and politically. If they can bring that TERF or Gender Critical idea into a framework defined by their fears, then there is something to discuss and disprove. But until they open a door to reason and evidence, communication isn't going to happen.
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  10. #10
    Call me Pam pamela7's Avatar
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    thankyou ladies. I had not had a goal really, I was and I am open to learning different views on dealing with the situation, preferably not ending in separating from a person who I used to mentor, going back 15 years. I know he is compensating for something really big in his psyche, which I'm not going into here, even if he has completely suppressed that aspect. His social group are quite right-wing LGB, which might sound a little incongruous, and perhaps it is. So, they're very pro gender-binary as an XX/XY thing, and protective of radical feminism, seeing trans as "men intruding male privilege into female spaces". We know how wrong this view is, in terms of our emotional-psychological demographic, and also we have to acknowledge that female survivors of abusive relationships with men need spaces away from what they perceive as "men", which might therefore include a woman in a male body, from their perspective.

    He lives in an area of social strife, on both racial and religious grounds, with a strong lgb culture also present. He has seen many victims of abuse professionally and comes from a place of empathy there, but he also has this overly binary worldview of a person denying something massive about themselves. so, you can see, it is complex, and it is also worth seeking to find how society does manage the genuine GG fears of men with the also genuine fears of transsexuals needing safe, female-embracing places too.

    So, it seems to me, that gradual, rounded discussions are one way of eventually finding out how we do move ahead as a more open and tolerant society.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJFyz73MRcg
    I used to believe this, now I'm in the company of many tiggers. A tigger does not wonder why she is a tigger, she just is a tigger.

    thanks to krististeph: tigger = TG'er .. T-I-GG-er

  11. #11
    Little Mrs. Snarky! Nadine Spirit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pamela7 View Post
    ..... female survivors of abusive relationships with men need spaces away from what they perceive as "men", which might therefore include a woman in a male body, from their perspective.
    I hear this argument, and have nothing but the utmost of sympathy for survivors of abuse. Trust me, I have sympathy, I was sexually abused at age 5. However, the idea of needing safe spaces away from what they perceive as "men," can be problematic.

    First off, what does that mean "perceive" as men? Clearly we are talking about passing privilege. So, if someone takes that stance, then a cute passable trans woman, is somehow different than a non-passing one? And they somehow are entitled to different rights because of their appearance?

    Secondly, are we providing safe spaces to everyone who was abused? It is an easy enough idea, if we push the false notion that only men only abuse women. That is not the case. So again, we will provide special rights to special people in special circumstances? So, how about me with my abuse? I was a 5 year old presenting as male child abused by their 10-15 years older female babysitter.

    What I find with most people is that they take anti-stances based off of ignorance and fear. The only true way to combat that is education. Unfortunately not everyone is willing to be educated.

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    Country Gal.... Megan G's Avatar
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    The best way to deal with someone that has a different opinion than you really depends on if you are both open to considering the other persons viewpoint. They have to be open to what your saying and you have to be open to their thoughts.... if this is not possible then the conversation is doomed from the start... you both need active listening skills....

    Not everyone believes in the crap TRA?s are pushing... me included. The current trans narrative has become so militant and toxic to people on both sides of the argument. Look at the so called trans people that are making headlines... the ?Jessica? Jonathan Yaniv?s, the Karen Whites, the recent attack on JK Rowling and the list goes on.... it?s no surprise that Gender Critical people are gaining in numbers and getting more vocal.

    The toxic TRA?s are causing more harm than good for trans people everywhere....

  13. #13
    Call me Pam pamela7's Avatar
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    Nadine,

    I agree, with safe spaces needed, for healing, and then moving on., regardless of origin. I've worked with my share of abused men also, and heard the horrors. The world is a mess. It does not mean there are grounds for excuses to allow discrimination undercover. So, yes, education, gradual and pacing the perceptual ability of the other.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJFyz73MRcg
    I used to believe this, now I'm in the company of many tiggers. A tigger does not wonder why she is a tigger, she just is a tigger.

    thanks to krististeph: tigger = TG'er .. T-I-GG-er

  14. #14
    Call me Pam pamela7's Avatar
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    So, I wrote this for them

    This is my initial writing to the other person. I suspect the wording might cause a little upset or uproar in fellow TG quarters, but it is well-intended as part of a dialogue with the transphobe. I'd appreciate constructive feedback, not arguments or disputes.

    Addressing Non-understanding of Transgender for Someone Willing to Broaden their Perspective

    This brief article has emerged after I tried to address what I perceived as a lack of genuine understanding of the situation for a transsexual in terms of feminism and pro-radical-feminism and anti-transgenderism aming partticularly the LGB demographic. Where I speak is from my own experience, and I would be wary of generalising too much. I am also choosing to speak only of the Male-to-Female form of transgenderism, though I might make a few words at the end about the F2M in relation to prejudices.

    Starting with definitions, the term "transgender" covers a wide sprectrum covering crossdresser, genderfluid and transsexual.

    The crossdressers who I have met in person are sometimes men expressing their feminine, and others who are using that as a cover to engage in homosexual relations - they use the crossdressing as an excuse to pretend to themselves and eachother that they are not actually bisexual, as "it does not count" in their words, in terms of being unfaithful outside of their primary heterosexual relationships. Then there are the drag queens; many self-proclaiming their gayness, openly being men interested in attracting men and expressing a very gay-male perception of the feminine. and there are the DQ?s who are straight men who just like to perform in drag. What I have not come across, in any of these men, is a menace towards women.

    The M2F genderfluid folks are people whose sense of personal gender changes by the day or even by the hour. They are already suffering enough with this, and certainly in my opinion present no threat to others, and I can't really see why a genderfluid would want to go to a radical feminist group.

    The key problem of non-understanding is about the M2F transsexuals. These are women born with male bodies. They do not see the world as men do. Their brains are wired to show either as female-stereotype or as something different from either gender stereotype?s neurology. Most will go through gender re-assignment surgery, and almost all will be at least on HRT or be waiting to receive HRT. As 99% are on HRT or post-op, they are highly unlikely to have any functional sexual equipment, and their strength-power is down to female or below-female levels. Having a large frame without the associated strength is a genuine disadvantage. A transsexual woman with a Gender Recognition Certificate is a woman. As women, they do not present a male threat to other women.

    Moving to the radical-feminist, largely male-hating female demographic, I can understand why they want nothing and no-one of male origin among their ranks or among their groups. I can empathise with people hating a demographic for the actions of an evil minority who have raped and abused, and against a world of genuine male privilege that almost 100% of males can?t even see or acknowledge. But the transwomen get this; they understand. They disidentify with the male-pattern behaviours. They hate it as much themselves, and everything it stands for. They are sisters.

    Take the analogy of the black man who converted large numbers of Klannsmen to leave, and understand that reinforcing hate and separation does nothing to heal; it only furthers and continues the pain. Consider that accepting others as they are, consider that the only genuine emotion is love, and that any other emotion is a distortion caused by ancient traumas in origin, and you can begin to understand that the transphobic behaviour is a signal for healing not for reinforcing hate.

    [... and that's kind of how I'm trying to give this transphobe some sense of there being no danger to drive his protective urge for the radical femininsts.]
    Last edited by pamela7; 01-04-2020 at 02:15 PM.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJFyz73MRcg
    I used to believe this, now I'm in the company of many tiggers. A tigger does not wonder why she is a tigger, she just is a tigger.

    thanks to krististeph: tigger = TG'er .. T-I-GG-er

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan G View Post
    The best way to deal with someone that has a different opinion than you really depends on if you are both open to considering the other persons viewpoint. They have to be open to what your saying and you have to be open to their thoughts.... if this is not possible then the conversation is doomed from the start... you both need active listening skills....

    Not everyone believes in the crap TRA?s are pushing... me included. The current trans narrative has become so militant and toxic to people on both sides of the argument. Look at the so called trans people that are making headlines... the ?Jessica? Jonathan Yaniv?s, the Karen Whites, the recent attack on JK Rowling and the list goes on.... it?s no surprise that Gender Critical people are gaining in numbers and getting more vocal.

    The toxic TRA?s are causing more harm than good for trans people everywhere....
    Well, J.K. Rowling “#stands with Maya”, who wrote this about you:

    ‘“men cannot change into women” and that discrimination against transgender women can “hurt mens feelings.”’ and likes tweets from TERF’s calling trans women “men in dresses”.

    So it seems a little stockholm syndromey for a transsexual woman to sympathize with Rowling, but you do you

  16. #16
    Call me Pam pamela7's Avatar
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    Nikki, You're asking Megan, but really your question is phrased both unfairly and inflammatorily.

    I believe we have to empathise with every other person, to understand their view, in order to then bring about greater mutual understanding.

    Personally, if a person holds those transphobic views, that's up to them and their loss, but if that person is in a job where their decisions and recommendations affect the lives of transgender people, then clearly they are in the wrong job and the contract was rightly not renewed.

    What Megan is saying, is that extremism on either side of the debate is unhelpful; she is not endorsing JKR's views.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJFyz73MRcg
    I used to believe this, now I'm in the company of many tiggers. A tigger does not wonder why she is a tigger, she just is a tigger.

    thanks to krististeph: tigger = TG'er .. T-I-GG-er

  17. #17
    Platinum Member Teresa's Avatar
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    Pamela,
    I don't wish to sidetrack this but when issues such as this arise , there is rarely if ever any mention of F/M transsexuals . The numbers are rising steadily but I can't help feeling the bigotry and condemnation is aimed squarely at the male in all his guises .
    The real me ,no going back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pamela7 View Post
    Nikki, You're asking Megan, but really your question is phrased both unfairly and inflammatorily.

    I believe we have to empathise with every other person, to understand their view, in order to then bring about greater mutual understanding.

    Personally, if a person holds those transphobic views, that's up to them and their loss, but if that person is in a job where their decisions and recommendations affect the lives of transgender people, then clearly they are in the wrong job and the contract was rightly not renewed.

    What Megan is saying, is that extremism on either side of the debate is unhelpful; she is not endorsing JKR's views.
    I have no idea what’s going on in Megan’s or anyone else’s head, but what she wrote was “ the recent attack on JK Rowling and the list goes on”, which is clearly sympathy for J.K. Rowling for being “attacked” by trans activists.

    I merely pointed out that for a trans woman/transexual to express sympathy for someone who clearly believes trans women are not women is akin to feeling an affinity for one’s captors, ala stockholm syndrome.

  19. #19
    Silver Member Aunt Kelly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan G View Post
    The best way to deal with someone that has a different opinion than you really depends on if you are both open to considering the other persons viewpoint. They have to be open to what your saying and you have to be open to their thoughts.... if this is not possible then the conversation is doomed from the start... you both need active listening skills....

    Not everyone believes in the crap TRA?s are pushing... me included. The current trans narrative has become so militant and toxic to people on both sides of the argument. Look at the so called trans people that are making headlines... the ?Jessica? Jonathan Yaniv?s, the Karen Whites, the recent attack on JK Rowling and the list goes on.... it?s no surprise that Gender Critical people are gaining in numbers and getting more vocal.

    The toxic TRA?s are causing more harm than good for trans people everywhere....
    First off, I'd like you to cite your source for the assertion that "...gender critical people are gaining numbers...". I don't believe that's the case, but that's just my belief. It will change if facts show otherwise.

    Next, I'd like to make an historical observation. In the mid-eighties, the LGB movement was consumed by two things, the AIDS epidemic and the controversy the followed the growing activism in the community. It is the latter phenomenon that I wish to speak to. An acquaintance of mine was as flamboyant an out gay man as one could find. He was also brilliant, and card-carrying, in-your-face activist for gay rights, to the point of being annoying at times. Barely a generation later, gay rights had become the rule, rather than the exception. Same-sex marriage became the law of the land in 2013.

    All that time, the T community was an active ally to the LGB community, believing that the interests of each group overlapped a great deal. While that is true, large portions of the LGB community have now forgotten, or abandoned outright the T community. That so many would not just walk away from the fight for trans rights, but actually become militant against it is unconscionable. Their excuses, every last one of them, are born of the same fear and ignorance carried by all haters of the LGBTQ+ community. Same goes for the TERF's. Evan a casual review of their grievances reveals ignorance on a grand scale. An entire class of women, who would gladly stand with the feminists, is attacked for reasons that are wholly imagined.

    So don't tell me that activism works against us. It may make some, who are used to status quo, more than a bit uncomfortable, sure. That's how it works. The bra burners of the 60's and 70's help bring about significant change in women's rights. The chant "We're here. We're queer. Get used to it!" had the same effect in the latter part of the twentieth century. If trans rights are to make progress, it's going to take some of the same "consciousness raising" noise.
    "Being honest may not get you a lot of friends, but it will always get you the right ones."
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  20. #20
    Platinum Member kimdl93's Avatar
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    To echo a point from Kelly, some people made the same kind of arguments about the Civil Rights protests of the 50s and 60s....that anything remotely confrontational might somehow set-back efforts. The fact is that without that confrontation, Jim Crow would still be the norm....lynchings would still be the norm.

    I think someone said freedom has to be won again by each generation.

    Easy come, easy go;
    Easy left me long ago...

  21. #21
    Country Gal.... Megan G's Avatar
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    Omg a transsexual woman that does not have any issues with what JK Rowling wrote.....

    ?Dress however you please.?
    Nothing here.... move along.

    Call yourself whatever you like.
    Again nothing here.....

    ?Sleep with any consenting adult who?ll have you?
    Common sense but in today?s day and age it?s a good thing to point out every so often.

    ?Live your best life in peace and security?
    She is wishing everyone happiness and safety....

    ?But force women out of their jobs for stating that sex is real??

    And this is where people seem to get hung up on.... and I?m not sure why.... as she is correct. Sex is real... and it?s immutable. Transsexual woman like myself are born male (for the most part, not going to get into genetic Anomalies like Swyer Syndrome). We will always be genetically male no matter how many surgeries we have. Are we women...yes we are ?transsexual women? What we are not is female, we will never be XX genetically and that is just biology.

    If sex was not real then ?Trans? would not exist. Remember I?m talking SEX (only 3, male, female, intersex) not one of the 57 million genders

    Peace out ✌️ I?m sorry i don?t subscribe to the current trans narrative,

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    Cool. Kudos to you for holding a belief outside the standard narrative. I would like to publicly apologize for projecting a narrative on to you based on my own misplaced assumption and inferences. Mea culpa.

  23. #23
    Silver Member Aunt Kelly's Avatar
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    It is inaccurate and disingenuous to frame the nonsense that the woman Rowling defended as speaking about "sex". If you take the time to read what that women has posted, it is pretty clear that she is a TERF and is defending her ignorance by trying to reduce the argument to one about biology. That too, is inaccurate of course, and the court agreed.
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  24. #24
    Silver Member Micki_Finn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan G View Post
    Omg a transsexual woman that does not have any issues with what JK Rowling wrote.....

    ?Dress however you please.?
    Nothing here.... move along.

    Call yourself whatever you like.
    Again nothing here.....

    ?Sleep with any consenting adult who?ll have you?
    Common sense but in today?s day and age it?s a good thing to point out every so often.

    ?Live your best life in peace and security?
    She is wishing everyone happiness and safety....

    ?But force women out of their jobs for stating that sex is real??

    And this is where people seem to get hung up on.... and I?m not sure why.... as she is correct. Sex is real... and it?s immutable. Transsexual woman like myself are born male (for the most part, not going to get into genetic Anomalies like Swyer Syndrome). We will always be genetically male no matter how many surgeries we have. Are we women...yes we are ?transsexual women? What we are not is female, we will never be XX genetically and that is just biology.

    If sex was not real then ?Trans? would not exist. Remember I?m talking SEX (only 3, male, female, intersex) not one of the 57 million genders

    Peace out ✌️ I?m sorry i don?t subscribe to the current trans narrative,

    Sex isn’t nearly as immutable as you think, and biologically, not all of mankind fits into the neat little “xx/xy” genetic box that some would have us believe. There is a whole range of biological intersex possibility, so saying “sex is just a matter of your chromosomes” is completely false.

    What about people born with congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH), a disorder of sexual development (DSD) in which a person with two X chromosomes is born with a functioning penis? What if you have androgen insensitivity syndrome, where despite having a Y chromosome, your cells’ unresponsiveness to testosterone gives you a “female” body? What if you have Kenefelter syndrome, which is when you’re born with two X chromosomes and one Y chromosome? Or what if you’re among the 1 in 4,500 people born with “ambiguous genitalia,” many of whom are surgically altered while still infants to fit into the binary two-sex model?

    It’s not a false narrative, it’s science.
    Last edited by Micki_Finn; 01-06-2020 at 03:47 PM.

  25. #25
    Country Gal.... Megan G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Micki_Finn View Post
    Sex isn’t nearly as immutable as you think, and biologically, not all of mankind fits into the neat little “xx/xy” genetic box that some would have us believe. .
    If you took the time to actually read my post instead of becoming triggered you would have noticed that i said i was not getting into genetic abnormalities.

    The science behind ?trans? is still in its infancy and honestly may never become a reality.... just like they were looking for a ?gay gene? and could not find anything. Reaching out and adopting studies of genetic conditions that are unrelated to being trans and fit into the intersex category just so it fits your belief is garbage science....

    ✌️

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