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Thread: dealing with "gender critical"

  1. #26
    . Aprilrain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pamela7 View Post
    So, what is our response, what are our views, what have you done to debate, challenge, discuss, address these things? because simply cutting off the person won't help educate or shift those biased against us.
    To answer this question first I need to know the situation, who is the person?
    Not every person I meet is important to me, therefore not every utterance that happens to fall upon my ear is worthy of my acknowledgement let alone debate! In the situation you describe I get the feeling this person is a casual acquaintance or work colleague.
    To me this person would rank very low on my "person who matters to me" list.

    I did not transition to be a cause. I transitioned to save my life. My transition is 100% about me and my physical, mental and emotional well being
    I personally do not have the energy, drive or inclination to try to create utopia. I have enough to worry about with my life and the people in it.
    I try to let the world be. In my own life any people such as the one you describe would likely be someone I have not had to endure for at least 8 years now. They and whatever hurtful or ignorant thing they said are either a dim memory or are lost to time.

    There is nothing I can say to someone who knows better. Efforts to change a persons closely held convictions are usually fruitless.
    Last edited by Aprilrain; 01-08-2020 at 12:52 PM.

  2. #27
    Gold Member Lana Mae's Avatar
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    You can not forcibly educate those who do not want to be educated! You can refer them to the educational material but they have to make an effort to be educated!
    That said, I am out and about in my community! No one has questioned my gender, my right to be that gender or any other gender related topics! No one has even asked me if I am gay, or trans! I am accepted as me and am treated just like any other human being regardless of how I am dressed! All that in NC the "Bathroom" state! AMAZING! Hugs Lana Mae
    Life is worth living!
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  3. #28
    Call me Pam pamela7's Avatar
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    About 12-14 years ago I was their mentor in psychotherapeutic practice and life. They had made significant life changing discoveries, and then over the years since I saw this darker side emerge, a sense of prejudice probably emerging from their local environment to a large extent, of feeling a minority as a relatively indigenous Brit, but given what I know about them and their largely LGB social circle, I do wonder why so many LGB do seem to be anti-trans, when so many trans are part of LGB! It's like an oxymoron in my world.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJFyz73MRcg
    I used to believe this, now I'm in the company of many tiggers. A tigger does not wonder why she is a tigger, she just is a tigger.

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  4. #29
    Vespa Vixen AngelaYVR's Avatar
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    If I could just rattle the bones of this thread a little, I have a personal philosophy that if I have the freedom to walk outside in a dress and makeup then others have the freedom to dislike that I do. There is no reliable way to convince someone to change their mind, people have to come to their own conclusions in their own time.

  5. #30
    happy to be her Sarah Charles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AngelaYVR View Post
    If I could just rattle the bones of this thread a little, I have a personal philosophy that if I have the freedom to walk outside in a dress and makeup then others have the freedom to dislike that I do. There is no reliable way to convince someone to change their mind, people have to come to their own conclusions in their own time.
    I agree with you that each person can make up their own mind about my life needs and choices. However if that decision is based on myth, misunderstanding, bad or even intentionally incorrect information, I would like the opportunity to at least provide accurate data for them. Getting out and interacting with others, being a normal adult with the only difference being how I express my gender has been helping provide some of that correction. I don't know if I've changed anyone's mind, but I do believe they are more willing now to be an ally to other transgender people and our place in society than they were before. There are a few who have been close to me in the past but I don't expect will change their opinion and it definitely is their right, but at least there is the possibility I've provided an exception to their formerly hard line opinion.
    Sarah
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  6. #31
    Platinum Member Teresa's Avatar
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    Angela,
    It's quite correct what you say but it also means they have the freedom to like you and your presentation , that's mostly what I'm seeing and it does feel good .
    The real me ,no going back.

  7. #32
    Silver Member Aunt Kelly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah Charles View Post
    Getting out and interacting with others, being a normal adult with the only difference being how I express my gender has been helping provide some of that correction. I don't know if I've changed anyone's mind, but I do believe they are more willing now to be an ally to other transgender people and our place in society than they were before.
    I agree. Now, I don't believe that anyone is going to have a "light bulb moment" the next time they encounter a TG person, and some people are so filled with fear that they may never give up their hatred, but I am dead certain that every little bit helps. A pleasant smile and ladylike manners are positively disarming. I've seen that simple approach change the atmosphere in a restaurant or other gathering place. Humans are creatures bound by a complex social protocol, one of the quirks of which is how we take our cues from others around us. If you can make the waitress happy, for example, you will notice the other patrons relaxing a bit, not always, but often enough that it is plain to see if you look for it.
    "Being honest may not get you a lot of friends, but it will always get you the right ones."
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  8. #33
    If only you could see me sarahcsc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan G View Post
    If you took the time to actually read my post instead of becoming triggered you would have noticed that i said i was not getting into genetic abnormalities.

    The science behind ?trans? is still in its infancy and honestly may never become a reality.... just like they were looking for a ?gay gene? and could not find anything. Reaching out and adopting studies of genetic conditions that are unrelated to being trans and fit into the intersex category just so it fits your belief is garbage science....

    ✌️
    Megan,

    I'm not trying to trigger you here, and please believe me that I'm arguing in good faith. I've read your post on JK Rowling and it seems to me like you're defending Rowling's position that 'sex is real'. And you went on to state you will 'always be genetically male' (even though I assume you have transitioned and identified as trans) and that 'sex is immutable'. But you also made a very important caveat to say that your position specifically omits 'genetic abnormalities'.

    If I'm misrepresenting you here, you can just ignore this message right away, or just correct me. I want to be fair to you by correctly representing your position.

    I'm not wishing to argue the science with you, but rather scrutinize your way of thinking about this issue. The argument that 'sex is real', and 'sex is immutable', are both very different arguments and we should not conflate the two. The former demands a degree of subjectivity, while the latter demands a similar degree of objectivity. Sex, depending on how you define it, in this case, genetic sex, as it turns out, is immutable. That means, it cannot be changed, at least not with our current state of technology.

    However, just because it is immutable, doesn't mean it doesn't vary within a population (which are what you term the 'anomalies'). Much like how you can't change the colour of the sky (which is most of the time blue), therefore the colour of the sky is immutable (at least we can't change it with our current state of technology), but the sky can also sometimes turn red during a sunset, or turn grey during a rainy day, or turn dark or black during the night.

    Are you still with me? Good.

    To say that 'sex is immutable' and therefore it is 'real', requires a degree of interpretation which is prone to errors. If were to put forth a counter-argument, to propose that if 'sex was somehow mutable' (maybe technology might one day permit us to do so), does that make it any less 'real' by then? Is a blue sky more 'real' than a red sky?

    I'm not saying that sex ought to be 'real' or 'unreal', but we ought to focus more on the context here on what Rowling is defending. I don't want to speak for the entire trans-community, but as far as I was concerned, the biggest challenge I faced was trying to overcome what philosophers term 'metaphysical scepticism', which is a line of questioning to deduce or ascertain the existence of a particular 'something'. It is the Cartesian doubt that questions the existence of everything.

    Some of the most ardent transphobes don't just argue that transfolks are evil, they argue that transfolks don't exist therefore they aren't 'real'. And that argument had been used to justify a swathe of mistreatment and prejudice. Rowling was very careful to point out that she ISN'T a transphobe by saying that she endorses people's freedom to date who they want, to dress how they want, or even to identify as whoever they want, except... she just won't accept these people as real...? *shrugs, not sure how to take that?*

    And here's the real kicker, if I can't argue that I'm real, neither can Rowling.

    The REAL problem here isn't about what is 'real' or 'unreal', it is the large scale disavowing and denial of hate and prejudice. Because the truth is this, the sky is as real as you want it to be, and the same applies to transpeople. People have a choice to treat us as 'real people', deserving of rights and respect, and likewise, they have a choice to do the opposite. Instead, they seek deniability by arguing 'I didn't say you were UNREAL, science did', which is categorically false. (Science have proven there to be variation in sex genes within a population, just like how there is a blue sky, and a red sky. It never asserted which one is more real.)

    Again, I'm not trying to shame you or trigger you. I'm not arguing that sex ought to be real or not, or that Rowling was right or wrong, I'm just scrutinising your thought processes that's all.

    Personally, I wasn't offended by what Rowling said, simply because she doesn't have that kind of power over me. But there are still valid reasons for calling her out simply because we need to make her take ownership for her own prejudice. We need to do that with everyone who perpetuates transphobic rhetoric.

    It is OK to be 'gender critical', but take ownership for it. Don't let people get away by sying that 'science thinks you're not real', instead, we ought to replace that with 'I think you are not real, and the science has nothing to do with it.'

    S
    Last edited by sarahcsc; 01-23-2020 at 10:43 AM.
    "The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me" - Ayn Rand

  9. #34
    Country Gal.... Megan G's Avatar
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    So I?m at work right now and can?t fully respond but will leave you this to think about.

    You come into the hospital and the doctor prescribes you a drug that reacts differently to males than it does females.... if i give you the female dosage of this drug it would not work effectively and we would never get you into the therapudic range and would not cure your issue.... or I could give you the male dosage and we can get you into the proper range and cure you.

    You go in for your yearly physical, do you want me to treat you as a female and do a Pap smear or do you want me recognize your birth sex and check your prostate. One route is a waste of time and money and the other could be life saving.

    See where i am going. You can do what ever you want but you will always and eternally remain genetically male....

    Cheers I?m out.... i have work to do

  10. #35
    Silver Member Aunt Kelly's Avatar
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    Yes, in the context of medical care, one's genetic "sex" is important to get right, but to suggest that that fact justifies ignoring the patient's gender borders on malicious. And that disingenuous rationale is precisely the one used by Rowling, the TERF's, and all manner of haters

  11. #36
    If only you could see me sarahcsc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan G View Post
    So I?m at work right now and can?t fully respond but will leave you this to think about.

    You come into the hospital and the doctor prescribes you a drug that reacts differently to males than it does females.... if i give you the female dosage of this drug it would not work effectively and we would never get you into the therapudic range and would not cure your issue.... or I could give you the male dosage and we can get you into the proper range and cure you.

    You go in for your yearly physical, do you want me to treat you as a female and do a Pap smear or do you want me recognize your birth sex and check your prostate. One route is a waste of time and money and the other could be life saving.

    See where i am going. You can do what ever you want but you will always and eternally remain genetically male....

    Cheers I?m out.... i have work to do
    Great question, and because I'm a doctor (what you in the US would call an 'Attending'), I will tell you how I'd address the situation.

    If a transwoman believes she is pregnant and insists on a pregnancy test, I would take time to explain to her that it is unlikely that transwomen can be pregnant unless they have a womb, Fallopian tubes, and ovaries. It is my duty to explain and educate patients about what they may or may not know. I don't make an assumption that this person is 'crazy' or 'difficult' or 'unreasonable', but I assume they are uninformed or misinformed. So I will sit them down and talk about the birds and the bees.

    If they continue to seek a pregnancy test after, I will gently refer them to another doctor.

    This is no different to any patient who is requesting the impossible or harmful. For example, the drug addict seeking more drugs, the hypochondriac seeking more investigations, the worried mother who refuses to vaccinate their children and herself, and the transwoman who is seeking a pregnancy test or a pap smear. I treat them all the same.

    So with your hypothetical patient, I would make sure the same education would take place, and tell them that certain drugs work differently in males and females (genetically speaking), and let the patient decide for themselves. They could just be uninformed or misinformed. And if they persist with their position, then I will refer them to another doctor. It is as simple as that.

    I see where you're going and you are asking the right questions. But I assume nobody has put across to you that transfolks are just like everybody else, some are uninformed or misinformed, some are unreasonable, some are difficult, and some are batshit crazy. Problem is, when an issue about transpeople arise in the media, people like Rowling just simply assume that transpeople are ALL batshit crazy and only wish to label them as such by making comments like 'sex is real'.

    You know, when I mean 'sex is as real as you want to make it', I really mean it.

    That means, sex (genetic) can be VERY real (or very important) in medical settings, but in other settings, it can be less important or completely irrelevant. The trick here is being thoughtful and contextual with your actions.

    The examples you have given makes three important points that may have been taken out of context, so let me break them down for you:

    1. All transpeople are like that.
    2. Even if not all transpeople are like that, there is still a crazy/unreasonable minority who are difficult to please, and that's unacceptable.
    3. And because their stance is unacceptable, the opposite stance must be acceptable, whatever that stance is.


    And here's the context you are missing,

    1. Not all transpeople are like that, only few people are, and that's evidence that they are just HUMAN.
    2. Yes, that is unacceptable. But the minority doesn't speak for the entire trans-community (I reiterate myself time and time again that I don't speak for everybody), and there will always be crazy/unreasonable minorities in any group, such as in religious circles, nationalists, environmentalists, heck, I'm sure there are a few crazy scientists out there but they don't speak for the entire scientific community.
    3. Just because some transpeople hold unacceptable stances, the opposite stance may be just as, if not more unacceptable.


    I'm trying to you give you some context here, Megan.

    I am not accusing you of thinking this way, but I want to raise your awareness in case you do, so you can pick this up when it happens. I've had this conversation with countless people both online and in the real world, and I'd reflect on the way they think and realized how appealing it would be to simply 'box people into categories' and leave it at that. Please avoid that as much as you can.

    It is arguably easier to put people into categories because that way you don't have to expend precious energy trying to 'figure them out individually'. But when you do try to get to know a person, you'd realize that you would do the same being in their shoes and understand that we're not so different after all.

    Believe it or not, I used to think like Rowling too. Until of course, my life and experiences changed me.

    Over to you.

    S
    Last edited by sarahcsc; 01-25-2020 at 07:47 AM.
    "The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me" - Ayn Rand

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