Respecting the comfort zone of others

[DanielleDubois]

There have always been a number of threads about shopping in male mode, going to a wig salon, shaving legs etc. but a couple of recent ones made me reflect on the advice given in those threads so here's my 2 or 3 cents worth.

I have always appreciated the advice I have received here but I think we always have to be aware, as in many things discussed here, the spectrum of people's comfort zones can be huge.

It's fine to say no one or the SAs care if you are buying women's clothes or to go ahead and shave your legs as no one will notice but it doesn't change the fact for some people they will find doing those things are outside their comfort zone and can be stressful.

From personal experience I know most SAs don't care if you are buying women's clothes but it is naive to think some of them are not suspicious. In a Winners store (similar to TJMaxx) I was shopping for some housewares years ago when I spotted a separate rack featuring some gorgeous royal blue Liz Claiborne cocktail dresses with a cute crinoline to make the skirt flare out. I couldn't resist and as I quickly pulled a size 16 off the rack a lady came over to me and said it was great seeing a man confident enough to look and but something like that for his wife. I still do not know if she was being honest or nicely trying to say I know it's for you and there's nothing wrong with that. Coincidentally when I took it to a young male SA he said something indicating he thought the dress was for me. I answered back no, but I think it's more your colour. So, even if a SA doesn't say something it doesn't mean they are not thinking it.

I have been in a wig salon and the SA did her best to relax me. I have bought high heel shoes at Payless. I have bought a bustier in a big department store at Christmas. I have shaved my legs and and arms many times. I have done the stealth shopping by using self checkout or putting cosmetics or pantyhose in a shopping cart with other items. I have gone dress shopping with my wife helping to pick out dresses and then her paying for them while I hovered nearby. I have done all of those things but it doesn't mean I have become comfortable with it or still don't find it stressful.

I guess what I am saying is it is easy to tell someone to "just do it" because you are comfortable doing it but you do have to respect that for individuals such as myself it is not always so easy.

Sorry for the soapbox speech,
Happy New Year
Danielle

[Davina Katherine]

Very true Danielle, we all are at different places and moving at different speeds.
The "hovering husband" image made me laugh, that is so me many times.

[Crissy 107]

Danielle, I think what you said makes a lot of sense. We all had to start somewhere and I can say for myself I was very nervous thinking someone I know is about to see me buying something in the women?s department. I am now much more confident but I understand that some of our members may never be comfortable. That is just the way we are. It really is a to each their own type of thing.
I find that getting pedicures at my salon very enjoyable, talking with the ladies and just being one of the girls. That?s me and my attitude but we are all different. To say, just own it, is good advice but not for everyone.

[Stephanie47]

I am glad I am not the only person on this forum who feels as you do. Amen!

[AllieSF]

I agree in concept with you Danielle. However, since you have to be 18 to join this site and I bet anyone under 25 is fairly rare, I would say that the vast majority here are older and know how to ask for advice from others, read that advice, and then figure out what may or may not work for them. Those that are constant encouragers, like me, just want to let those that really want to do it, that it can be safe and a lot of fun, using, of course, some normal common sense, like stay out of the bad side of town. Now, if someone goes out only based on others' recommendations then, in my opinion, it is not the fault of the encourager. I normally preface my encouragements that it is for those that really want to get out, and to only go out when they are ready. For those younger rare members here, they should have already learned through high school and college or work that you don't always do what your friends or buddies do. We all, and they, have to take responsibility for our/their own decisions, some work out and some don't. We should not be responsible for other's actions nor feel bad because someone followed our or other's advise on a website like this without thinking it through. Maturity is learned in many ways, including making mistakes.

[kimdl93]

I don?t see much harm in being a constant encourager...though I don?t often do so. All that Allie and others are saying is that your fears are something that comes from within. Its absolutely true that the vast majority of SAs do not give a hoot what any of us buys, nor does it matter if a rare exception might be offended. The fear is not much different than stage fright. Some of us, myself included, never quite fully get over stepping on a stage to speak or perform. But we learn to manage our fears and our apprehensions. In doing so, we achieve things that fear would otherwise have prevented.

[DanielleDubois]

I hope I wasn’t giving the wrong impression. I always do truly appreciate the encouragement but no matter how unwarranted my fears there are some things I will not ever be comfortable with.

However, for years I was a lurker here and afraid to join but obviously I am now very comfortable sharing Danielle with all the caring and thoughtful members on this forum. So, not to contradict my first sentence, but I guess it could be a case of never say never.

[April Rose]

I am 69 and have been a crossdresser all my life. I started buying women's apparel for myself in the very early seventies. I have definitely noticed a difference over time, particularly in the last 5 years in how I have been received by SA's and others when shopping. It is not that they haven't always been willing to make a sale, but nowadays they seem to project a more comfortable attitude. I don't think I am fooling myself on this; I think there is a real change in the way people in general look at the rules of gender.

Everyone is different, I know, so "let the buyer beware", but I don't think encouraging people to relax and enjoy shopping is misplaced.

[Aunt Kelly]

There have always been a number of threads about shopping in male mode, going to a wig salon, shaving legs etc. but a couple of recent ones made me reflect on the advice given in those threads so here's my 2 or 3 cents worth.

I have always appreciated the advice I have received here but I think we always have to be aware, as in many things discussed here, the spectrum of people's comfort zones can be huge.

It's fine to say no one or the SAs care if you are buying women's clothes or to go ahead and shave your legs as no one will notice but it doesn't change the fact for some people they will find doing those things are outside their comfort zone and can be stressful.

From personal experience I know most SAs don't care if you are buying women's clothes but it is naive to think some of them are not suspicious...

OK... Let's unpack this a bit. "Suspicious" of what? Some crime? If you're acting nervous/guilty, then the answer is probably yes, because you look like shoplifter or a pervert. Shopping for clothes is not a crime, of course, and most SA's, by far, just want satisfied customers.
Look, I get it. All of us have been there at some point, but that does not make those irrational fears any more rational. I submit that it is not disrespectful to point out that reality. The worst thing one can encounter is laughter and/or sarcasm. Yes, it happened to me, maybe twenty years ago in a Catherine's. As the SA handed my purchases to me, she smirked and said, "Enjoy your panties." That bugged me, for about a minute, at which point I knew that I would never shop at that store again. It was a long time ago and to be sure, it's far less common now, but it did happen. I'm sure it still does, if only very rarely. If you're not prepared to deal with even that much reaction, ask yourself why.

[DanielleDubois]

I meant suspicious as in at the checkout they are thinking the merchandise is for you not suspicious as in lurking around the clothes looking to sneak a pair of panties in my pocket

I have often thought about the reasons why I am not totally comfortable buying women's stuff in person and yes the reasons may be a bit irrational but it doesn't make it any less stressful for me personally. That's not to say there are not times I suck up the courage to purchase things in person.

[TheHiddenMe]

Posters here are offering their advice. It's up to each person to act on that advice or not.

Personally, I found courage in boards like this and blogs that I could go out in public dressed (or buy women's clothes in drab). I needed that advice and courage.

And you MIGHT find a sniggering SA at a store--or you could find a nail tech that finds it cool that you're getting a makeover and shopping for clothes, or SAs that welcome you back, or another nail tech that is giddy you're a CD, and who regularly meets you to shop and go out, and who's daughters are dying to meet you.

Anyone can choose to fear the worst, or can face their fears and do what the little voice inside their heads are telling them--"you can do this."

[bridget thronton]

I have used the positive stories posted here as encouragement for me to grow

[sometimes_miss]

Look, I get it. All of us have been there at some point, but that does not make those irrational fears any more rational. I submit that it is not disrespectful to point out that reality. The worst thing one can encounter is laughter and/or sarcasm.

and

and the only way to get over that fear is to confront it head on so you can know that there is nothing to fear.

'Nothing to fear'? Uh, not exactly. No, the worst that can happen is that you get noticed as a crossdresser, and it gets back to people you know, or people that hate us. While the incidence of CD or TG violence is rare, it still happens, and it's not irrational to want to avoid it. Not everyone wants to be a front line warrior in the social wars going on about what's acceptable, and what is not. I grew up being an outcast, teased mercilessly, and have absolutely no desire to repeat that experience just to 'support the cause'. It's not irrational to be cautious of the people who want to hurt us. Ask any woman if she no longer takes any precautions when going out alone at night, if those precautions are foolish because there's 'nothing to fear'.

Part of the reason some folks get nervous is that they feel they are doing something wrong. It?s helpful to remind oneself from time to time that crossdressing is not illegal.

That's not the reason. The reason, is because a certain percentage of the population still believes that in their mind, 'we are doing something wrong', and deserve to be punished for it.

I'm frequently amazed at the number of threads started by people who have never had any adverse responses to their going out en femme, so they just automatically assume that there never are any, based on their own experiences. That's not how life works. Just because nothing has happened to YOU, doesn't mean that everyone else has that same experience.

I stand by my advice. Before doing something, consider the worst possible outcome. If you can accept and deal with that, then proceed. If not, then reconsider what you're about to do, because as they say, you can't un-ring a bell.

In my lifetime, I've seen many people go ahead with their ambitious, optimistic plans, because of the 'Oh, it happens to others, but surely, it can't happen to me' thoughts....and then 'it' happens, and they have no idea of what to do, once the stuff hits the fan, and their life is changed forever, permanently.

[TheHiddenMe]

Nonsense.

Do you know a FAR greater risk than a guy going out dressed as a woman?

It's getting in a car and driving. That's the riskiest things most people do on a day to day basis.

Around 35,000 to 40,000 Americans are killed in car crashes annually, or roughly 100 a day.

How many on this board smoke? That is a far bigger risk than going out dressed.

How many are overweight? Ditto.

If we all considered the "worst possible outcome", none of us would drive--or fly, or eat food, because they all have risks.

If you are trans, and you're a sex worker, yes, you have a higher level of risk.

But if you're not, the biggest risk isn't driving in a dress, it's driving.

[AllieSF]

"I stand by my advice. Before doing something, consider the worst possible outcome. If you can accept and deal with that, then proceed. If not, then reconsider what you're about to do, because as they say, you can't un-ring a bell."

Miss,

I think I understand what you are saying. However, if people follow your advice, no one would go out, and that includes cisgender people! The being able to accept and deal with a possible death situation (worse case scenario for us living creatures) from a car accident, robbery, hate attack, or whatever is always present in today's world of increased violence everywhere. If you modify your advice to read "...the worst probable outcome.." then it makes more sense to me. The worst, worst situation may happen, but it would be extremely rare and would make no difference of how one presents themself. So, picking the right location, venue, time of day plays a big part in the probability game.

I think that what most people who encourage others to go out are naturally assuming is that the adult on this site reading that recommendation has enough maturity and common sense to be careful where they go and what possible and probable reactions they might expect based on their being there. No one is saying go everywhere anytime alone. I also do not believe that those of us who have gone with zero "adverse response", I am one of those, assume that nothing ever happens. You are assuming all of us adults are innocents, and we definitely are not. Yes, anyone can get complacent in their own safety considerations, and sometimes, and rarely, do they/we get adverse or dangerous and harmful reactions. Yes, it does happen, but it is rare.

I believe that our encouragements to others to go out automatically (and many times they are clearly stated by someone in those threads) include that they should use common sense to maintain their personal safety, including the chance of verbal insults. Since I joined here many years ago I have heard many people say the "sky is or will be falling" if they go out while the number of negative stories here of their outings into the real world are miniscule when compared to the positive ones. So, yes if one goes out be smart, safe and have fun. Also, only go out if you want to and you are ready to. We are encouraging you not coercing or pushing you to go out.

Danielle,

Thanks for the further clarification. I do get your situation. Yes, you have offered a lot of good recommendations and support for others and please keep doing so. This is a good thread and had stimulated a lot of good conversations,

Thanks ..... Allie

[Aunt Kelly]

and

'Nothing to fear'? Uh, not exactly. No, the worst that can happen is that you get noticed as a crossdresser, and it gets back to people you know, or people that hate us. While the incidence of CD or TG violence is rare, it still happens, and it's not irrational to want to avoid it.

Yes, and a meteor might fall on one's head. Please...
The OP was talking about fears about interacting with merchants. Of course, if you live in a small enough community, or shop close to home, you run the risk of running into someone you know. If that would create a problem for you, that is a rational fear.
The fear of encountering haters with violent intent is also an irrational fear. Yes, of course, it does happen, but most of those cases you hear about involve the victims doing things that are high risk for any woman. The odds of that happening during a shopping trip are infinitesimally small, so bringing it into the context of this discussion is just silly.

Finally, risk assessment is far more than deciding if one can accept the worst possible outcome or not. I pity anyone who would use that metric to make decisions about how they will live their life. Fear like that is crippling.

[Alice Torn]

In small towns, like where i live, if a well known townsperson went out and was outed, it would badly hurt his reputation, or business, and family. The times i went out CDing were far from where i lived, so there was little chance of being recognized. If my relatives, some friends, business associates had found out, i would have had hell to pay. I did tell several friends, and church people about Alice, and none of them were pleased, but a few tried to understand, but said i need to overcome it and stop. Not one GG i was interested in, accepts it, too. I know that in many bigger cities, it is more tolerated and even accepted. And police are far more neutral and professional than ever before.. Some police officers are CDers too, from posts i have seen on here over the years! But, if I went out all six foot six of me, 265 lbs, and seven feet tall in high heels, here, i would be the laughing stock of my apartment complex, and town, and life would be very difficult.

[suzanne]

In recent months, I have made several fairly long posts about the benefits and fun of shopping in person. I will not repeat them here. But I will say this. My intention has always been to encourage, not to shame. And if someone fails to succeed the first time, I want to urge them to try again rather than feel like a failure. It almost seems like those who feel judged have not yet learned to stop judging themselves.

I was once deeply closeted and afraid to even walk into a dress shop, as has everyone in this forum at one time or another. I remember how many times I tried to enter a shop then chicken out and leave after a quick pass through a single aisle. I remember very well how hard it was to walk in and ask for what I wanted. And the relief I felt when the SA and managers accepted me so readily. These people now treat me more like a friend or family member than just a mere customer. How glad I am that I eventually pushed my fears aside. I want that for everyone in this forum.

I want those still closeted to add a word to their vocabulary: yet. As in "I can't shop in person YET" I hope my meaning is clear. Encouragement, not judgment.

[Shely]

I remember in a GW store some time back when a little lady SA said, while buying several pretty dresses, "Oh that will look nice on you" all I said is "I hope so" and took my change and left. it didn't bother me enough to say anything smart, in fact I kind of got a kick out of her knowing that I was going to rush home and put them on. Who cares what others think?

[Rachel05]

All things come with practice and confidence too, I remember my first time buying panties, I was sure they knew they were for me, sure that all the SA’s were watching and laughing, they weren’t and it said way more about my nerves than their judgment. Forward to yesterday, bought some nice little ankle boots and some tights, I never gave it a second thought, took my shopping to the line of least queue as opposed to seeing which SA would be best, purchase made, some pleasant chat and the boots are perfect. If you’d told me it was that easy 30 or more years ago, I wouldn’t have belief you but then I never had a forum like this either

You are right Danielle, we are all different

[Lydianne]

. . .

- People read advice so that they can extend their comfort level.
- If it were already within their comfort level, they wouldn't need the advice.
- One can't extend one's comfort level by only doing what one is already comfortable with.
- There has to be that initial over-extension.

People are different; so we can't advocate a blanket toning-down of encouragement because to do that in 'respect' of one person might undermine the crux for another.

It's down to the individual to decide how badly they want it and how much they are prepared to commit. ( Note that this can change over time and flip the balance ).

- L.

[Rachelakld]

I went parachuting with the wife, she thought I was smiling as I hung on to the spar of the aircraft - in reality, I was crapping myself (not literally).
Bungy jumping - same thing
White water rafting down a 7 meter vertical waterfall and having the raft on top of me instead of under me - same thing.

The most relaxing thing to do is probably going for a drive, yet statistically probably the most dangerous activity in the world (like 100,000,000 times more dangerous than telling the SA the dress is for yourself).

The problem with phobias, is they fail to constrain themselves within reasonable terms of outcomes.

[Teresa]

Danielle,
I'm sure most of us at some point can relate to these felings . Looking back over the last two years I can see it as a barrier , whether we need or want to cross it is up to the individual . For me going full time it obviously had to happen so when I shop now there is no thought of the items I'm buying are meant for anyone else but me , I have to say it is a lovely feeling because the conversations with SAs now are more between two women .

To turn the problem around I posted recently where I commented how I felt weird and out of place when shoping in male mode , I find it hard if not impossible because I went back to people staring at me when I was checking out some makeup , something I've not experienced for quite sometime .

The other problem is still having a wife /partner not fully on board , I also know how that feels , not only do you have to deal with SAs but also where to stash the items at home and sneaking time in when you can wear them .

I don't think these feelings ever disappear until you no longer feel guilty and totally comfortable being out in the RW . That's why I keep dropping my stories in on the forum I've lived all this, now I'm in a siutuation where I can hopefully help others as I have been helped in the past

[Helen_Highwater]

I would class myself in the encouraging camp. That said I appreciate what Danielle is saying. However it's not difficult to phrase a post about SA's not really caring and in the same sentence add a caveat that you will get the odd one who will be a bit off'ish.

The trick is for the reader to know that while the world isn't universally perfect it's not as bad as some imagine. It's down to aggregating the different posts to create an overall view.

There will come a point for pretty much all of us were we find ourselves stepping out of our comfort zones. Just because you do it once, that first time out shopping say, there will be others. First time using the ladies, using a female changing room. Getting on a bus or train. All these things can make you feel that bit uncomfortable or nervous. It's part of the rite of passage we go through as we gain evermore confidence.

I believe the important thing to take away from reading encouraging posts is they're just that, encouraging. Showing by example what's possible. There will be some for whom going out is a barrier to high. The role of the encourages is to point out there's an open gate in that wall.

[Jodie_Lynn]

The great thing about on-line forums, and the stories that people relate to others is that, one can take away what one wishes. Like a buffet. "I'll try some of this...Oooh I love that... Nope, don't like that stuff, I'll pass on it."

And NO ONE says that you MUST do A, B, and C. Unless I missed the memo and someone published the definitive "Guide to Crossdressing Handbook"?

I do want to point out some things about the whole "shopping for/buying" issue. People tend to overthink the whole situation. Women buy clothes for the men in their family (husbands, sons, Dads) and don't seem to express any angst about it. They also buy clothes for themselves and their daughters. I can't imagine that they feel 'weird', guilty, or afraid that the cashier will think it's for them.

And, if a cashier does think that you are buying something for yourself, SO WHAT? WHO CARES? Do you think they are going to get on the tannoy and announce it to the whole store? Or are you planning on inviting this random stranger into your social circle? And if they do tell their friends about 'this guy came through my line and was buying panties!!!!!', do you know them? Are they important to you?

We all have comfort zones, hela, the only place I'm nervous about, is friggin Walmart! You do what is comfortable for yourself, and stop overthinking the thing. In reality, we aren't as important as we like to think we are.