Got caughtby my wife

[Glenda58]

Got caught by my wife the other morning.

Needed to take my wife in for cataract surgery at 7:30 AM. So I set the alarm for 5:45 AM. I get up to get ready and my wife walks into my room to get the dog. She couldn't sleep at night. We in a DADT relationship. So she see me I my bra and panties and nightee and has a fit. She takes the dog out and I change.

In the car she starts telling me she might divorce me and she would tell all my friends and family and how would I feel she did. I SAID OK THEN I WOULDN'T HAVE TO HIDE ANYMORE. Then she went on to say if GOD wanted me to be a woman he would have. I told her stop right that GOD make me this way. I don't have any bad habits and I always take care of her.

She hasn't said anything tome about it since other than I should get counseling. We just got home from V-Day dinner.

[Sandi Beech]

Glenda,

I am so sorry. I can relate because that is the way my wife has talked to me in the past. She said that I should go to counseling, not we. Anyhow I understand the pain. Our wives sound similar. Usually I lay low for a while and try to avoid arguments when something like this happens. I pretty much gave up and only dress when I go out of town to avoid what happened to you. Best wishes. I hope things go better for you in the coming days.

Sandi

[kimdl93]

Since she suggested counseling, perhaps the next thing should be an invitation that she join you in seeking it. She may be surprised at the results.

[junetv]

I too can relate. My wife says a lot of disparaging things when it comes to me and crossdressing.

[Georgia K]

Sorry to hear this but personally I think your wife needs counselling

[Lydianne]

That is clinical. In many ways, I admire SOs who do this to this level. I know you also self-suppress as much as humanly possible. With the knowledge of how I feel now after years of expansion, I admire those here who do this too.

I could imagine a CDer who lives with overt non-acceptance from their SO might wish they had this, but I can also understand somebody who has this wishing for an occasional demonstration of emotion from their SO - even if it's one of non-acceptance. ( I can also imagine a CDer who has what they feel to be too overwhelming SO support, musing fleetingly about DADT ).

Neither sounds ideal. One situation sounds tense, the other one sounds lonely. At the end of the day, it's difficult to imagine DADT being a first choice. You go there as a compromise with the hope for both sides to remain functional when supportiveness is beyond one's wife's comfort. However, it sounds like a lonely experience for both.


Stephanie, it sounds as though your wife can compartmentalise airtight. It wouldn't surprise me if you were to tell us that she can otherwise also brighten the mood in an entire room.

- L.

[NancyJ]

Glenda, My heart aches for both of you. I can feel the pain. And sitting across from each other at a Valentine dinner after such a contemptuous exchange? Oh my! My wife also disapproves and, in my view, refuses to understand. I think you know you have been living on the edge of this bomb going off by sleeping en femme in the same house. Tis was not a matter of if, but when. In that way, it probably is a fight you needed to have. One way or another, clear the air on this.

Be honest that you plan to sleep en femme. Why not, since apparently you are not sharing a bedroom? And I agree with others who have suggested that you take her up on her demand that you go to counseling. Of course, she says it like fling to counseling is for sick people.

I understand how hurtful her words were and how disappointing it is that she does not understand or accept your femininity. Sounds like you have many other reasons to stay together. Hope you work this through. Best, Nancy

[Devi SM]

Glenda, reading your thread I can see that several relate with you on being married to an oppressive woman.
I would never ever accept that my wife treat with embarrased me. Our relationship has always been based on love. The day that love no longer exist, I don't see a reason to keep living together, and go to a Valentines day dinner? What did you guys talk about during the dinner? I'd love to hear the other side of this story.

I'm sorry but I was born in a different country, any body there dream with one and live here but I never thought that it could be so common that kind of hiprocresy and fear, abuse and powerless attitude. Why do keep living in a lie?

I'm honest in my opinions, I'm sorry, but my advice wouldn't be received.

Devi

[Shelly Preston]

Glenda

It sounds as if you wife thinks counselling might be a cure.

[Lydianne]

I am also sorry about the conflict you both had. I do find it strange, though, that in a DADT, 1) she walks straight into your room ( and/or you didn't/can't bolt it ), and 2) she said this:

In the car she starts telling me she might divorce me and she would tell all my friends and family and how would I feel she did. I SAID OK THEN I WOULDN'T HAVE TO HIDE ANYMORE. Then she went on to say if GOD wanted me to be a woman he would have.

..in a DADT.


Doesn't DADT imply that one's partner is already aware it's going on but does not want to see it, hear about it, or experience consequences of it?

Therefore, that reaction would have made sense coming from a wife who either didn't know, had been given the impression that an effort was being made to quit, or was absolute zero tolerance about it.


When setting up a DADT, wouldn't there be bounds drawn up? And wouldn't there be a reasonable expectation of the inevitability that, living in the same house, some stuff would occasionally be stumbled upon on both sides?

So I would have assumed something along the lines of telling you to be more careful to keep it out of sight if you were dressing out of bounds, or an apology if she mistakenly walked in on time or space that had been pre-agreed for you, or a blind eye and deaf ear (?).



What Stephanie47 has described in the past, I consider that to be a pure DADT:

An initial talk:
Link.

..[SNIP].. That incident precipitated "The Talk."

Followed by a total shut down:
Link.

I wish my wife would say something. Anything sometimes. But, she clammed up several decades ago. Totally ostrich with head in the sand. She knows I wear women's clothing when the opportunity presents itself. I have no idea if she knows the extent of my wardrobe. So, how does one make a confession of a sin of omission when a wife does not want to hear anything or see anything?

I was also searching for a post where somebody said that when their wife stumbles upon an item of their clothing, she just puts it on the washing machine and says nothing ( the "DA" ). Again, pure DADT, and even quite generous from the wife not to reprimand her partner for not making sure everything had been taken away out of sight ( as obligated by the "DT" ).


I never made an attempt at family life solely for this reason; so I don't deal with this stuff. I just found the events strange in what I understand by DADT.

- L.

[Devi SM]

I am also sorry about the conflict you both had. I do find it strange, though, that in a DADT, 1) she walks straight into your room ( and/or you didn't/can't bolt it ), and 2) she said this:



..in a DADT.


Doesn't DADT imply that one's partner is already aware it's going on but does not want to see it, hear about it, or experience consequences of it?

Therefore, that reaction would have made sense coming from a wife who either didn't know, had been given the impression that an effort was being made to quit, or was absolute zero tolerance about it.


When setting up a DADT, wouldn't there be bounds drawn up? And wouldn't there be a reasonable expectation of the inevitability that, living in the same house, some stuff would occasionally be stumbled upon on both sides?

So I would have assumed something along the lines of telling you to be more careful to keep it out of sight if you were dressing out of bounds, or an apology if she mistakenly walked in on time or space that had been pre-agreed for you, or a blind eye and deaf ear (?).



What Stephanie47 has described in the past, I consider that to be a pure DADT:

An initial talk:
Link.




Followed by a total shut down:
Link.




I was also searching for a post where somebody said that when their wife stumbles upon an item of their clothing, she just puts it on the washing machine and says nothing ( the "DA" ). Again, pure DADT, and even quite generous from the wife not to reprimand her partner for not making sure everything had been taken away out of sight ( as obligated by the "DT" ).


I never made an attempt at family life solely for this reason; so I don't deal with this stuff. I just found the events strange in what I understand by DADT.

- L.

Lydianne, as I said before I love the way you write because, as a non native english speaker, is very enlightenment for me.

The reason of my comments is mostly an answer for tour doubts and of course everybody could benefit from it.
One of the things that be in HRT has taught me is to better understand women. I don't want to expand myself in this making a comparison between men and women and focus just in women.

Men are rationals, thinkers, subjected to facts (I don't agree with that self definition of men)
Women do not think too much just inunderstandable just react, without thinking, can be unpredictable and don't play fair, as you say in a DADT relationship. I don't agree either in this definition of women and explain myself.

Women are mostly emotional creatures, in all order of things they are guided by emotions and feelings, these are the one that guide their reactions and argument, when the argument time comes.
If you think on how women react in different environments and situation having in mind the above said will help you to understand them and be a more passable croosdresser.
I already mention here that for a wife to see her husband loosing his masculinity and embracing elements that she always feel something that belongs exclusively to her is very difficult and hard to accept, there's no reasoning about her husband rights or any agreement. They feel deeply hurt in her survival. Now they feel unprotected and that's and react on surviving and is going to grab whatever attitude to defend what belongs to her.
You can keep analyzing wives reactions from this viewpoint and everything will make sense.

That's the way my mind works now and that explains the wall that there's between you and me and in general between cds and trans. Cds keep being men that want to be a woman, so dress as a woman but trans are transformed by hormones into a woman physically and emotional. This is a common sideeffect that many trans expres. Being more emotional than before because now are "feeling" more like a woman and to dress doesn't have the same grade of importance than before and others things get control of their minds.
Mho.

Devi

[hosekid]

when you are married, you are supposed to love and accept each other no matter what. we arent talking about cheating here, were talking about who someone is. Ive been through the "I married a man" argument. my answer is that you married me, a person. How would the wives react if we said I married a woman, you are not allowed to wear pants or do things that men do. There is a big double standard here.

quick story. my daughter used to make snide remarks whenever i'd dress pretty. she would tell me how boys should not have long hair or wear makeup. So, being the teacher that I am, the next time the house got dirty, me and my son sat and watched tv while I made her clean. She kept saying how it was unfair, but I told her that boys dont cook and clean, that's a womans work. She really did not like that, but it helped her understand that if you want to live in a situation with defined gender roles, you have to be willing to live up to your genders roles. If you want the freedom/right to bend your genders role, you have to allow others to do the same.

[Stephanie47]

Lydianne (#8)...."I was also searching for a post where somebody said that when their wife stumbles upon an item of their clothing, she just puts it on the washing machine and says nothing.......etc"

That was me. You did some heavy searching in the forum to dig up my posts. Yes, on occasion I have failed to pack away a bra or a panty which was found out by my wife. Yes, she put them on top of the washer/dryer, but, did tell me she found them and where she put them. Nothing more said.

And, if you dig some more you'll find a comment that my wife found I had left my Firefox open to this forum. I had stepped away for a minute which grew to all day. She found my browser open to this forum. She minimized it. She told me she found it open and I should be more careful in case someone else came behind me and saw it. Nothing else said.

In no cases has she made rude comments. No judgements. Nothing about God. In other comments you'll she I do absolutely nothing to push cross dressing in her face. I do not modify my body. Fortunately, due to genetics I am almost hairless. Hardly a hair follicle on my legs and nothing at the underarms. She knows since day one in 1971 that is me, no shaving. She has said after nicking herself that my hairless body is "wasted" on a guy which is said with absolutely no hint of a double meaning.

I don't know if there are outward signs of love and affection between us. Many times when we are sitting together on a park bench or at the jetty at Ocean Sores, WA total strangers will comment upon how peaceful we appear together. Frankly, I could not imagine being married to a woman who would badger a husband with constant hostility.

[abby054]

...Frankly, I could not imagine being married to a woman who would badger a husband with constant hostility.

Some of us need not imagine. Leaving is not an option.

As for counseling, be careful. I am too patient. Our first counselor was into insurance fraud, using his patients as his patsies. I wised up quickly enough to avoid trouble. The second one was preparing to leave her husband. She counseled my wife to leave me and join her. My wife chose instead to get a new counselor. The third one (I told you I am too patient) taught my wife how to bully me. He later was arrested for sexually abusing female patients and was soon assassinated in jail. There is no fourth counselor for obvious reasons. I can?t make this stuff up. As for counseling, be careful.

[Teresa]

Abby,
I missed that comment but often we don't realise it's a gradual process , we don't just walk out the door because it doesn't happen overnight . It didn't occur to me until my separation how much my life had been controlled .

[GretchenM]

As terrible as it seems, it might actually be a good thing because it increases honesty. Wives often react in a strong way when this is found out. We all have been trained to think that men are men and women are women and crossing over is a sign of something very wrong going on. It is pounded into us as children. Problem is, the reality is very different. Everybody is a blend of masculine and feminine traits and characteristics. Some are more blended than others and the degree of blending affects the behavior exhibited. Many of these traits and characteristics have a genetic foundation and although they can be modified and frequently are in the course of our life, they can't be eliminated and therefore are always operating. It is why in humans there really isn't a normal except mathematically. "Normal" people are exceedingly rare and when you find one they are that way simply because all of the possible variations just happened to land on the normal point when put together into the total person.

When I came out I went to a gender therapist and my wife joined me once in awhile. But she never fully accepted that aspect of me. Not sure she ever will. Kind of traditional while I am not. Consider doing what she suggests, but go to a therapist who has a good deal of experience in dealing with these conflicts. Tell your wife that you are going, but don't tell her much about what goes on. In time her curiosity may take over and she will join you. Don't make a big deal of going; just tell her that you are doing what she suggested. A family or couples therapist might be best; I am sure most have dealt with this kind of situation many times. It you are not comfortable with the therapist then find someone you are comfortable with. Not all therapists are equal in their abilities. A comfortable and trusting relationship is essential to effective therapy. One of my daughters is a therapist and she has taught Dad a lot about the process and the profession.

[CarlaWestin]

My wife and I have a similar DADT agreement. We respectfully don't use that or any other things we've brought into our relationship.
It's always rock throwing cheap shots that are being generated elsewhere but, you're the convenient target of her frustration.
I just understand that, although I color outside the lines a little, there will always be people who've just switched off any acceptance for such a thing.

[tmonsivais]

Glenda, I am sorry you have to be going through this as some of us remaining something similar. What I have learned is to is to also be patient as this is hard on both of you. You have every right to feel and dress the way you want to as she has every right to feel and be who she wants to. Things become difficult when one begins to be abusive and hurtful and allow anger to get the best of them. You have to keep in mind that your wife has every right to want her husband to a certain way, someone who she finds attractive, etc. This does not mean that your not attractive, but to her there is a part of you that she just cannot accept. When my first wife found out about my love for wearing heels, she could not accept it, I felt guiilty, did not like myself. One day I realized that it was okay for her not to like that part of me and even okay for her not to want to be with him. But it was not okay for me to feel the same way she did. I learned to embrace myself and love everything about me even if it meant losing her. I saw that it was okay is she could not apprecaite me, the person, the man that I am. It was her right so we ended up getting a divorce. Fast forward to now, my current wife has been able to see me, the person, the man that I am and appreciate me regardless of what I wear or the way I look. My point in all of this is be patient with her, she may or may not want a divorce but communicate, seek therapy preferably together so that both of you can figure out what is it you want and can do for each other without sacraficing one self.

[JuliaGirl]

In the car she starts telling me she might divorce me and she would tell all my friends and family and how would I feel she did .... Then she went on to say if GOD wanted me to be a woman he would have.

Hi Glenda,

I'm not sure I can really offer much as someone who is so deeply closeted that I feel foolish suggesting any life lessons about dressing and relationships. But I have been married 27 years next month, to a lovely and smart Eastern European woman whose temper and moods run to extremes. If I ever told my SO about my dressing it'd wind up being more along the lines of snide remarks, rolled eyes, something she'd "hang" over me, and an unspoken mistrust that I am somehow "less of a man".

Those two points in your story that I quoted above? That would hurt me to the core. Telling people out of spite because she can't emotionally handle it? Sounds like revenge to me. And even though I'm an atheist I was raised in a christian home and to have the audacity to tell me that you know what god wants? Hmmm. Wow.

I'm hoping that both those statements were simply an emotional, non-thinking, spur of the moment reaction. And I agree with the others here ... unless you feel some guilt/shame/issue with you as a human who needs to dress, then it's not you who needs counseling to accept and open their mind to have some empathy.

I am very sorry for you having to experience that level of shaming. Not cool.

[alwayshave]

Glenda, My ex-wife was always threatening me when she did not get her way. Though she did not know of my crossdressing, everything else I did came under scrutiny and a threat of I'll divorce you. The best moment of my life was when I stood up and told her no. When I stopped giving in to her and stood up to her, she realized she could not control me and she changed her story. However, by that point I had had enough and just left. I'm not telling you to leave, but standing up to her was probably the best move.

[Marianne S]

Glenda, I'm so sorry this happened to you. And on Valentine's Day, of all days--the day that should be devoted to love! I too would like to know how the conversation went over that Valentine's dinner.

Sadly, what strikes me is that you may, after much thought, be forced to decide which way you need to "jump"!

I do salute the wisdom of many posters here--Gretchen, among others--not just in recommending counseling (which is always wise), but suggesting that even if your wife is not willing to accompany you, going to counseling yourself might be a way to get her "hooked" into joint counseling; to get her educated and get something sorted out between the two of you.

You might be able to mend your marriage, and as a champion of marriage (and a totally unashamed romantic!) myself, I'd love to see that work for you. Or for anyone! So that's the first thing to try; the "conservative" approach. It obeys that famous "law of the physician" attributed to Hippocrates: "First, do no harm!"

However, if that doesn't work, you might be forced to face a decision. And if so, it's best to see it coming earlier rather than later. As Devi has asked with wisdom of her own: "Is it right for you to continue this marriage?"

Up to a point I've been in both places myself, though not as deeply as you are. Decades ago I was in a relationship with a woman that I hoped and expected would become permanent. As I've mentioned here before, that didn't happen--and it was my choice to leave. It was a painful split. None of us with a heart likes to hurt anyone. But it was the right decision. It wasn't all about crossdressing either. Despite the warmth of our relationship--and she was a "good woman" in many ways--we did have incompatibilities that I believe would have eroded any marriage we had in the end. And while I never told her about my crossdressing, from clues I put together I am convinced that she would never have accepted me as Marianne. I'm sure it would have shattered our relationship beyond all hope of repair.

Instead I took up a lovely woman (my sadly late wife) with whom I was thoroughly compatible--we were so similar in many ways--and who did accept and enjoy me as Marianne. As hard as the decision was back then, I never for one moment regretted leaving one woman to join with another. Some things are "not meant to be"--and some things are.

I know your situation is by no means the same as mine. I have always preached that it is a great mistake for any of us to "project" our own personality or circumstances onto anyone else as if they were the same, when they frequently aren't. The best we can do is to ask "Are they comparable in any way?" I don't know the circumstances of your marriage, how long you've been together, whether you have any kids, what it would "cost" you to leave your marriage--emotionally as much as anything else--though at your time of life that must be one heck of a hard decision. Especially in terms of the limited possibility of forming a new and more accepting relationship, if that's what you want.

I have to admit, too, that I may be different from you in terms of my "need" to crossdress. The main thing, I feel, is whether or not we're comfortable enough with staying in a male role, regardless of our wish to be "female" at times. Some are, some aren't. I am, and I'm lucky to that extent. I was always happy to "play the man's role" to my wife. Conversely, while it was fun, I never "needed" to go to bed in a bra and panties every night. How strong is your own need?

So your situation is not much like mine. Painful as it was, that many years ago, I could afford to say "goodby" to a relationship that wasn't yet anchored and bogged down in kids or finance or years of shared memories. And admittedly my relationship with my wife of many glorious years was never threatened by any possibility that I would let her down by abandoning my "masculine side" that she loved as much as the rest of me. But "your mileage may vary," as the saying goes. Are you on the path toward switching genders?

In spite of those many complications, you may have a decision to face. How good is your marriage really? How much do you share with your wife in terms of common interests, common goals, things that you enjoy sharing together? How supportive are you of one another? Do you take mutual support for granted... or not? How often do you laugh togetner! (My wife and I laughed a lot!) Is your life together fun?

Why do you sleep in separate bedrooms? That's "not normal," you know. Possibly for certain members of the "nobility" in times past, but not among the vast majority of married couples today. Are the two of you that far apart already?

In short, is your marriage actually worth preserving in the interest of your own authentic self? (Which is Devi's point of view.)

I can't pretend to know. I'm only asking the question you may have to face. Confronted with conflict, which way will you need to jump?

I have only one thing to add. If you've had a long term marriage, as I did, we have a lot invested in our past: the lives we've built together; the memories we've shared together. It is never more appropriate than on Valentine's Day, above all, to remember these things. None of us would want to toss away an old relationship we've invested so much in over the years, even if it had serious flaws. So anyone can understand why you, or anyone, would be anxious to preserve their marriage.

But the same may be equally true of your wife. If you've shared many years together, some of which at least were enjoyable, she may have a lot invested in the marriage too. And what future would she face if you split now? In her sixties, perhaps? Females have fewer chances than men of finding new partners as they get toward old age--if that's what she wants.

In short, you do have some leverage. All this crap she's spouting about "divorce": does she really mean it, intend to go through with it? Or is she just venting her frustrations about a "problem" she can't solve?

If you can drag, persuade, cajole, seduce, or otherwise manipulate your wife into joint counseling with you, you may find an answer to that question. As reluctant as you may be to abandon a (probably) long-term marriage, your wife may be just as reluctant, for similar reasons, despite her threats of "divorce." Scads of marriages are far from perfect, but are livable with anyway; far better than the alternative. That old "advice columnist" Ann Landers used to ask the question "Are you better off with him (or her)--or without him (or her)?" So I do suggest you "stand your ground," sympathetically of course, resist your wife's bluff (assuming she is bluffing) about divorce, and don't be intimidated. Good luck!

[Devi SM]

Hosekid, I completely agreed with what you say but its bard to fight against those gender standards.
Long ago, when I was just a crossdresser, post pics here of me dressed doing "female" shores showing that that would be a tip to show wives that is not just dressing, to all those excuse themselves of having a bigger femenine side.
The reaction wasn't good but I wasn't wrong.
Now I'm a trans woman and last two weeks had to assume my wife's role taking her child day care
business and it was a very satisfactory experience for me where I could use the new acquired female abilities and skills, ir shouldn't say the dormant skills that now were awakes?.

Devi

[Lydianne]

@Devi SM: Thank you for the reply. I was *only* talking about in a DADT.


In the absence of a DADT, I *do* understand the attempt to protect a marriage with shock and awe. I also understand trying to protect physical attraction with a similar approach:

...that reaction would have made sense coming from a wife who either didn't know, had been given the impression that an effort was being made to quit, or was absolute zero tolerance about it.

How that reconciles with a jointly agreed DADT arrangement in place, given that the two approaches work against each other,.... . I made no implications about differences between male and female. I was only talking about a joint arrangement having been made and both sides abiding by it. I am very confident that both men and women are capable of this.


I can't assess whether a hormone course would make me assess that differently. Maybe. There are things that make me feel different stuff, so it's not impossible.


Give me your reply, I'll acknowledge having read it, and then I'm going to keep quiet lest I risk derailing the thread.

- L.

[docrobbysherry]

Glenda, I feel u should take your SO's advice. See a therapist!

Almost invariably, after a session or 2 your counselor will most likely want to see u together. To mediate your differences. This may be a good way to come a fair compromise and agreement on your dressing!

[Fran out]

Marianne, very insightful comments that can relate to anyone in a long term marriage. I have asked myself that question a number of times in my marriage..."are you better off with her or without her". The same question I'm sure my wife has also asked. So after 50 years, you can guess our answers.