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Thread: 1!1=?

  1. #1
    Happy in life KlaireLarnia's Avatar
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    1!1=?

    1+1=?

    I am curious, when I read on here I often see people state about going En Femme or As A Woman (with ?drab? representing normal male clothing), and with this comes phrases like "be able to be Jane" or "going out as Jane" or "As Jane". It is something I have often struggled to grasp and why I largely kep silent because I don?t get it.

    So my question is, do people see themselves as 2 people. The male who is ?normal? and what people expect in Real world and the female who is?. I don?t know? someone else. Do you change your mannerisms, your attitudes, your voice, your walk, your body language when you are dressed up rather than remain as you would be as a man. If so which is the person you prefer to be?

    I ask this not to be awkward or poke fun or criticise but because in my life there is no distinction between me / the clothes I wear / who I am. I could be in a suit and tie, Jeans & T-shirt or a dress and still walk, talk and act the same way as I do. At work today whilst in a long denim skirt and floral top I was discussing an issue with a motor engineer on the phone and it was very down to earth like two drinking buddies in a pub ? because that is how you talk to engineers ? you keep it open, honest, frank and don?t pull punches. But this is also who I am at heart so it?s no issue ? the fact I was dressed in a very feminine outfit doesn?t change who I am or how I act/speak on the phone or in person. I go into the local shop dress in female clothes and I speak the same as I do if I was in jeans. ?Klaire? doesn?t exist per say, she is not a separate person in my life or someone who comes out at certain times. Her qualities and persona are part of me but not separate from me.

    So back to my question: 1+1=? for me its 1 because 1+1 makes me whole.

  2. #2
    Silver Member Micki_Finn's Avatar
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    In my case, basically yes. However, I’m a drag performer so it’s a little different than other people on here.

    However some things NEED to be altered if you want to blend/pass. If you walk like a guy, move like a guy, and talk like a guy while dressed, it creates an incongruity that makes you stand out more.

    Also, sometimes referring to ones fem presentation is just a linguistic short cut. “This shirt would be great for Micki” is easier than “this shirt would be great for when I’m crossdressed.” It also creates verbal subtlety when out in public.

    There are some here who view their “fem self” as a different person/persona, but I think you’re reading too much into what ultimately amounts to communicative laziness.

  3. #3
    Always been a GIRL. Michelle1955's Avatar
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    1+1=1 and 1+1=2. We are all in someways a little different. Research goggle the various definitions of non-binary. At my age 64, I’m probably 65% F & 35% M in my brain = 100% , but appearance wise it is flipped on %’s.

  4. #4
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    Honestly no, I am the same person DRAG or DRAB.

    In some ways you can't help doing things a little differently. Like when walking wearing a dress, shape ware, breast forms, and heels. It's hard to just clomp along like some guy.

    But then I am not trying to pass as anything besides a Transwoman. I don't care if anyone realizes that I am actually a GM.
    Last edited by Robertacd; 02-21-2020 at 08:49 PM.

  5. #5
    Platinum Member kimdl93's Avatar
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    I do not see myself as possessing two identities. I suspect most people use the convention of referring to themselves in that third person sense as a convenience...to differentiate from when they present in male mode and name. I have the luxury of having a female name on my birth certificate, so I really do not need that contrivance.

    that does not mean I don?t try to accentuate my femininity when presenting as a woman. I do manage my voice, to maintain a more passable vocal tone. And I probably allow myself a bit more freedom of movement as a woman, at least in comparison with my more self conscious male presentation.

    Easy come, easy go;
    Easy left me long ago...

  6. #6
    Member Victoria_Winters's Avatar
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    For me, I as a performer am working on learning more control over my voice so yes. I do alter my voice and some of my mannerisms while dressed. But I am still me just display a different side/and when on stage I have a ?stage persona?

  7. #7
    Gold Member Helen_Highwater's Avatar
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    I see this as no different to being an actor on the stage. They are a person but events and situations require them to present different persona. I can understand the argument that we're a single personality, we are who or what we are but to deny that for many of us we have to live two separate lives, presenting two different characters is failing to acknowledge the obvious.

    The constraints I live under require that I can't be Helen, in all her magnificence, all of the time. I manage my duality and I'm comfortable doing so. To not have this requirement would be much easier but that's not the reality of my life.
    Who dares wears Get in, get out without being noticed

  8. #8
    Gold Member Diane Smith's Avatar
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    I am one fairly well adjusted individual who happens to have a somewhat more complex than usual relationship with gender. However, referring to myself as "his name" or as "Diane" is a convenience when writing here as shorthand for how I am dressed and presenting externally at the moment. It doesn't have any deeper meaning to me.

    - Diane

  9. #9
    Rachel Rachelakld's Avatar
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    I have co-consciousness.

    It means I have multiple personalities (2 anyway) that are both fully aware of each other.
    The male is the primary, female is the secondary
    They both like very different stuff and when the need arises, we can "swap out the driver" so to speak.
    When the baby cries, male doesn't care, female wants to rush over and fuss over the baby.
    Male - doesn't like anyone (mechanic, car washer etc) touching his car, female always wants to call the mechanic (if she could afford it)

    Single entities seem the most common here, which surprises me as I don't understand why a man would want to dress up as a woman - unless they are just acting a part, but if they are just acting, why not Viking or super hero?

    All my male "dress up parties" I have been in Viking/Roman or 1800's gentlemens clothing, even Freddy Krueger when I was into SFX, girl clothes didn't even come up as a possibility.
    See all my photos, read many stories of my outings and my early days at
    http://rachelsauckland.blogspot.co.nz

  10. #10
    Happy in life KlaireLarnia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rachelakld View Post
    I have co-consciousness.
    Single entities seem the most common here, which surprises me as I don't understand why a man would want to dress up as a woman - unless they are just acting a part, but if they are just acting, why not Viking or super hero? .
    In my case I have male and female traits in my personality. To allow me to be "whole" I need to let both out and be on show. To do that I find the easist way is to dress in female clothing and let that element express itself in terms of how I look and offer a "shell" to which the male side can exist and guide actions/mannerisms. Think like an Egg. The main part and the part which holds all the falvour, the essence and body of what an egg is and tastes like is the yolk, around it is the white which doesn't do much other than make the egg a complete package. Remove the white and the esssence of the egg exists but there is less of it, move the yolk and you have something which on it's own has no real purpose unless you put it with something else,

    That's why I dress. I am the yolk, the white [dressing] makes me a the complete package. One can exist without the other but really you would never want it too.

    ----------------------------------------------

    Thank you everyone else for the replies, it's interesting and to be honest not always the answers I was expecting. It's nice to have my eyes opened somewhat.

  11. #11
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    I am glad to see posts like this because I get the impression that those of us who are 'just' cross-dressers are being frozen out of this site, to the extent of being mocked for imagining we are not trans. I am male no matter how I am dressed and having a bra and forms does not change that. When I go out as Susan (as Susan, not being Susan) it simply describes a presentation, and all the time I am out I am acting, just as others here have said. I am me no matter how I am dressed. In 3 weeks I have a four-hour round trip with a woman friend and as we will be on our own in the car I will use my own voice and gestures - there will be no acting even though I will be dressed to the nines in womenswear. I call myself a gender tourist. In fact the clothes and perfume are the only aspects of women I envy and I can access both of these as a man so I have it all. On Wednesday I went shopping in boutiques far from home in tights, ballet pumps and a skirt but presenting as a man so I do not feel I have to do the whole look every time I go out but I am happy to admit it is more fun if I do. That is all Susan is - fun - not another personality.

    If I claim on this site that I am doing this for fun and am not trans I get mocked. I don't get mocked for wearing a dress on the street. It seems that if I am to be mocked for the way I dress I only need to post this on a site aimed at cross-dressers. How ironic. Anyone posting on here telling someone they are not a real woman and if they think they are they are deluded would be banned from the site. But telling a man he is deluded for believing he is still a man if he wears a dress is apparently fine. The logic of this escapes me.

  12. #12
    Somewhere in-between. Krea's Avatar
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    I do not consider myself as having separate male and female "persona". It is not a case of in male-mode i am Nick and in female-mode i am Krea. (I chose that name for anonimity earlier in my time here and now some of you know me by that name i can't be bothered to change my user id....)
    I am me all the time. I do not identify as specifically male or female, but somewhere in-between. What i wear does not change who i am underneath the clothes.
    "Welcome to my scene.
    A place that's in-between.
    Where the squares fit the rounds."
    (Lyrics by Queensryche)

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by susan54 View Post
    . Anyone posting on here telling someone they are not a real woman and if they think they are they are deluded would be banned from the site. But telling a man he is deluded for believing he is still a man if he wears a dress is apparently fine. The logic of this escapes me.
    Very spot on observation.

  14. #14
    Member SaraLin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KlaireLarnia View Post
    So my question is, do people see themselves as 2 people. The male who is ?normal? and what people expect in Real world and the female who is?. I don?t know? someone else. Do you change your mannerisms, your attitudes, your voice, your walk, your body language when you are dressed up rather than remain as you would be as a man. If so which is the person you prefer to be?
    .
    I won't pretend to speak for anyone but myself. That leads to all kinds of trouble...

    In the beginning, I was trying desperately to hide/deny/bury anything about myself that was feminine.
    It didn't work, of course. So then I only allowed "her" out in tightly controlled situations and talked about the girl inside me as if 'she' were a separate personality.
    It sorta worked, but it was tearing me apart inside - and there was still a lot of "leakage" between the two.
    With time and a lot of self-work I have managed to blend the different aspects of myself into a single whole rather than keep trying to split myself in two.

    These days, I refer to "Sara" or "her" only as an -um- semantic tool. It's clearer when I say I'm Sara today than to say that I'm choosing more typically feminine clothing and/or behavior than masculine.

    NOW- do my mannerisms, voice, etc. change when I'm fully dressed? I'm told that I do. My voice softens. I move differently. and of course, I don't sit with spread legs when in a skirt. Most of this isn't by deliberate effort, it just happens naturally. I've even gotten grief from my semi-DADT wife for acting too "swishy" on a few occasions, and have to watch out that I don't get TOO feminine for her comfort.

    Which would I prefer? Well, for me the choice would be a "normal" female - but reality has dictated otherwise and I have to accept that my body and soul will continue to be out sync with each other for the foreseeable future - probably the rest of my life.

  15. #15
    Reality Check Krisi's Avatar
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    I was born male and remain male to this day. Strapping on a pair of boobs and a wig does not change my personality or beliefs. Wearing boobs does not change my political views or my choice of music.

    However, when dressed as a female, I try to walk like a female, talk like a female and act like a female. Why? Because I'm playing a part. When I walk down the street or through the mall, I don't want people to see me as a man in a dress, I want them to see me as a woman.

    Some of us are different, but that's what I do and why I do it.
    Krisi

  16. #16
    Silver Member Meghan4now's Avatar
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    So, when I dress in a shirt and tie versus jeans and work boots, my essential personality does not really change, but my expression may modify a bit, and certainly the way I approach an activity. Who wants to ruin their cloths by stepping in the creek or moving a bale of hay?

    When I dress, there is a bit of an act, there is somewhat of a change in appropriate actions, and there is also for me, an amplification of certain personality characteristics.

    In the long run, there is only one me. But I have different expressions of who that is at different times. Can a generally happy person express anger or fright and not be the same individual.
    Put on a Happy Face.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rachelakld View Post
    I don't understand why a man would want to dress up as a woman unless they are just acting a part
    Well in my case I am Transgender.

    BTW: This is not something I ever WANTED or chose to do for fun or eroticism, it's just who I am.

    To say I am just acting a part is to say I chose to be this way.
    Last edited by Robertacd; 02-24-2020 at 09:42 AM.

  18. #18
    Platinum Member Teresa's Avatar
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    Klaire,
    This is what dysphoria is all about , not being happy with some or all aspects of the male part . Some of us can go out fulltime or possibly 99% as a woman , I can't speak for others but I feel perfectly NORMAL as Teresa . I accept there still is the small part of that has to be male to satisfy a few family members , so at the moment I can't say I'm 100% whole , I have separate parts which I hope with time will become ONE .

    As for changing from one to the other , yes it does happen but the changes are subtle , it is not an act because an act can't be sustained . I look at it from a different angle , there are feminine men and masculine women so I'm going to slot into that mix somewhere , it's all about finding your identity .

    I agree if you've spent most of your life in male mode you are more conversant with a greater range of technical issues and it's easy to slip into that way of thinking and talking , in that respect I will never have the same abilities as a woman because at my age I won't be able to experience them all but I will add I'm having a great time learning .

    Perhaps I've been here too long but I'm beginning to understand more and more the comment , " Don't overthink it !!"
    Last edited by Teresa; 02-22-2020 at 02:54 PM.
    The real me ,no going back.

  19. #19
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    I don't see myself as two different personalities except as to what I wear and how I do things when enfemme. Inside, I'm the same person. BTW, Klaire, based on what you said, why do you use a girl's name?

  20. #20
    Senior Member Asew's Avatar
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    I don't see a difference either. Sure wearing a skirt or heels will change some aspects in how you sit and walk. But I also see myself as non-binary and pick and choose what I like from both genders to make my gender.

  21. #21
    Silver Member Aunt Kelly's Avatar
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    Susan, please provide a link to a thread wherein you were mo ccx ke for being "just a crossdresser". No one here is "just" anything. I don't doubt your assertion, but insecurities abound in this community, and those can give rise to "not trans enough" just as easily as they can produce overreactions for some perceived ed slight. So let's sort this out.

  22. #22
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    Aunt Kelly

    I stress that this post is not criticising you - you just asked for more information.

    I forget where it is - it was a few weeks ago. It was a quote from my post where I had said that I was a man who dressed as a woman, then I added "I am not trans". The quote was surrounded by laughing emojis. What I should have done was complain to the mods at the time. But this is the first time I have made a post on this subject and not had it disputed - there are too many people on this site who claim to know more about me than I do. There are posts on this thread from members who say they are just acting, which is the same for me. I am fed up of having my motivation questioned by people who have never met me. If you are acting in a play or a film you have a part, which can involve a different costume, voice and mannerisms and, of course a name. That does not mean you have psychological issues related to the part you are playing. Sometimes it is just fun - compulsive - but fun. It is clear that there are others like me even on this thread, but there are others on here who would deny our existence, and it is to them I would direct questions about motivation. If I stay on this site (and I am opening fewer and fewer threads) I will certainly report the next person who denies the validity of me identifying as male when dressed up - it is no less offensive than denying the validity of anyone identifying as female and should be treated accordingly. The real problem, though, will be for any man in my position trying to explain his motivation to his partner. She will come on this site and find that other cross-dressers maintain such people do not exist, making her husband deluded or a liar. Thanks for that. This is the first time I have gone near labels since the emoji troll. I have my own label. I am a gender tourist. I am equally happy with cross-dresser as long as no one requires this to have gender identity issues. I like to look good in these clothes but they are just a costume - I am still exactly the same person inside the costume. Exactly the same - which means a man. Does wearing a clown costume mean you identify as a clown? Does wearing a Dracula outfit mean you are convinced you are undead? Of course not. Obviously there are many on this site who have different reasons for wearing what society regards as womens' clothes. I am not criticising those who really have gender issues - just give those of us who do not a break too.
    Last edited by susan54; 02-23-2020 at 06:01 AM.

  23. #23
    Platinum Member Teresa's Avatar
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    Susan,
    To a point I agree with you , being told by other peolple what we are not what we clain to be .

    While mods are asked to accept spelling and grammatical errors sometimes the comments and threads are written in an ambiguous way , also I'm afraid some people don't read the full text and jump on part of it and use it out of context . I will hold my hands up here and admit I've been guilty of that on occasions . I also state that I try to read between the lines , sometime it's not what has been written but what had been omitted that's important , in that case ask the right questions before passing judgement .

    OK I could argue the point with you when you talk about " Acting " and " Costumes " but that is how you see it in your life and it obviously works for you . Talking in those terms I would feel a fraud , being Teresa isn't an act I put on but then I'm facing the problem of male mode becoming an act I have to perform for a certain audience , I'm finding it harder to step onto that stage .
    The real me ,no going back.

  24. #24
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    "The real problem, though, will be for any man in my position trying to explain his motivation to his partner. She will come on this site and find that other cross-dressers maintain such people do not exist, making her husband deluded or a liar. Thanks for that. "

    Spot on again Susan54. I would never tell my wife about this site. Too many people have said that what I do is just the first step to becoming Caitlyn Jenner. Something my wife and I would not want to happen.

    I guess my label would be a man who loves women and who likes to under dress and occassionally more for some reason he hasn't figured out but isn't too worried about

  25. #25
    Senior Member Ceera's Avatar
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    The bottom line here is that different people have different reasons for changing their gender appearance, gender role, or entire gender personality.

    The fact that being ‘a man in a dress’ and/or perceived as such was not what was ever right for me, in no way invalidates the people here who feel that is exactly what they are and what they want to be. We simply have very different reasons for choosing to present ourselves differently than the way our bodies and upbringing dictated.

    Likewise, the fact that many of us will never fully ‘pass’ as our desired gender presentation in no way invalidates the undeniable fact that a few of us are blessed with that ability. Many can not, but some can. Again, we are different people, with different abilities and needs. It is equally inaccurate to say, “No one I know can paint good pictures, therefore no one can expect to paint good pictures.” Or to say, “It is easy for me to paint fantastic pictures, tgerefore everybody else should be able to paint well, if they try hard enough.” Some can, some can’t, just as with any ability.

    In my case, I now classify myself solidly as a transgender woman. I am 18 months into living full time as a woman, have been on HRT for that time, have converted my legal identity to female. Driver license, birth certificate, passport, all say female now. Me living as a male has ceased to happen, and I am eagerly looking forward to my top surgery this year and bottom surgery two years from now, and living the rest of my life as a happy, bisexual woman. And I happen to be one of the lucky ones who can, most of the time, pass fully as female, in both appearance and voice.

    Addressing the OP’s query... how I have viewed myself has evolved as I evolved and changed how I present myself to the world.

    There was a time I would have said, “I am male, but I can do really well at writing female story characters or role playing female characters in games. In real life, I am strictly a normal, if bisexual, guy, living a normal heterosexual life, (and, after age 21, ‘married to a woman I love’). I would never really dress like a woman in public, or try to become one. The female characters I portray in games stories or on-line are just storybook characters that I devised, and which I present as entertainment.” That would have been me from about age 18 to age 50. Prior to that, from 12-17 I knew I was bi, but refused to openly acknowledge it, and tried to act straight.

    In my 50’s, I considered, and still rejected, the thought of me ever actually cross dressing or changing my gender role or physical gender. One of my co-workers transitioned from male to female. It was no longer just something I read about, which rich people far away sometimes did. My thoughts on my own gender remained as before.

    When I was 56, my dad died. Mom had died the year before. Not wanting to disrupt my otherwise great relationship with my parents had been my main reason for repressing what I had thought of as ‘my being bisexual’, and kept me from even considering the possibility that my mind and gender identity did not match my body. I was still married, and still needed to maintain a ‘normal’ public life as a male. But I had to admit there were impulses to at least try wearing women’s clothes. And I had to admit that a lot of the detailed, believable Female characters I had developed over the years for stories and on-line roleplaying had a lot more of ‘me’ in them, and that I had a lot more of ‘them’ in me, than I had previously admitted, even to myself. I started tentatively experimenting with cross dressing, in private.

    When I was 57, my wife died, and I decided to re-evaluate what I wanted and needed to do with the rest of my life. A major part of that was acknowledging that I at the very least had a strong female component in my mind, and a need to be seen and perceived as a woman. That was in 2014, and for the next four years, I led a double life. My social life became increasingly female, going out socially as ‘Ceera’, a name I had adopted from one of my female roleplaying characters, and doing my best to ‘pass’ as a woman. And otherwise continuing to live as ‘Jay’ the guy I had lived my life as so far. During that time, while I never would have said I had a true ‘split personality’, I certainly did have the ability to somehow ‘flip a switch’ when I shifted between gender presentations. As a woman, my behaviors were different. Not just to pass or blend, but in terms of how uninhibited and openly bi my female aspect was. During that period, I referred to ‘being Ceera’ and ‘being Jay’ much as if they were separate personalities. I considered myself gender fluid, bi leaning strongly to lesbian when presenting female, bi leaning strongly to straight when presenting male. And I quickly gained the ability to pass as a woman with strangers, in just about any setting. I loved living as a woman, but did not hate living sometimes as a man.

    In 2018, at age 61, I found out it was financially possible for me to fully transition. And years of denial and repression came crashing down. After some soul searching, I started down the path to full transition. Part of that was seeking guidance and evaluation from two independent mental health professionals, as well as getting guidance from my primary doctor. And I realized that the ‘Jay’ male personality was a construct I had built to appease the expectations of my parents, family and friends, who all expected me to be a ‘normal’ male. But if I had been given the choice, as early as when I was seven to ten years old, of living as a female, I quite possibly would have had a much happier life. My ‘Ceera’ personality was the real me, repressed for most of my lifetime. I still do not regret or dislike having lived for so long as a male. I have a wonderful daughter as a result, and have had, over all, a pretty good life. But living as a woman is much more appealing to me. I came out to friends and family, and left my male past life behind.

    So I guess that, for me, it was all ‘me’ the whole time. But ‘the guy’ was a mask the girl always wore, a mask I am happy to finally remove. My ‘female personality’ was the real me, all along. It explains why being ‘a man in a dress’ never felt right, for me. Because My mind never really was male. It was a female mind, seeking to appease other’s expectations by acting like a male.

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