Ask a GG - Three

[char GG]

Personally, I don't care. I get in and get out.

However, I know many women who are strongly against/uncomfortable with Crossdressers, Transgender, or men using the women's restroom. Of those, some use the public space in the ladies room to change clothes for whatever reason.

Other friends were alarmed at a hotel on Halloween when crossdressers and men came into the ladies room. My friends were suspicious that it was just a ruse to enter the ladies room and very unhappy about it.

I also witnessed a man (on Halloween again), waltz to the front of a line of GG's waiting for their turn. It was brutal! The GG's read him the riot act.

I also have a close friend with strong views against it. She was alone in a public city owned multi stall restroom when a man (possibly a CDer) entered. She was alarmed and angry. She even reported him to the authorities. In her case, I would have been alarmed also.

GG's can't read the minds of CDers who show up when the ladies are alone. Keep in mind that GGs are concerned about their safety and feel vulnerable in restrooms. They do have the expectation that it is a safe space is for GG's.

GG's are the majority in their restrooms. Anyone who is not a GG is in the minority. If a lady has a hissy fit about a man in the ladies public restroom, the authorities will most likely side with the GG.

I also think that in these times, women are very nervous about who they see as men in the ladies restrooms.

This is probably not what you wanted to hear, but since you asked the question, this has been my experience.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions

[Di]

I do not think anything about it and do not care.

As far as OTHERS I witnessed something horrible .I remember a event out ( girls night out for cders ) there was very much a kerfuffle when a some of cders went to the restroom together and alarmed the other guests causing a big scene. A big damper for those involved.



As far as when Sherlyn and I went out , I felt it was only safe for her to use the womans, but she was in and out and did not talk or act like it in itself as a social event ( like I have read cders feeling they had to interact with women in there)
Like the above question men commenting on strangers clothing. Women have to have their guard up from previous experiences in life many ( most) have had with men.
So if read as a man, I think many woman will have their defenses up, not understand and feel threatened. There is just no understanding , as it is not something they have in their life and only see it as a threat .
I think the closeted aspect of a crossdressers life keeping a hidden life does not help the matter.




About the friend transitioning . They are a woman and should be treated as such and the work place might need to educate. Totally not acceptable to be treated otherwise.

[ellbee]

Hi, thank you both for the replies so far!


I do have another follow-up question ( ), but first, I'd like to publicly clarify something...

Apparently the M2F transitioner has been using a small, private, rarely-used restroom in another part of the building. I have no idea if it's men's (doubt it), women's or unisex. I also have no idea whose idea it was -- as it could have been the individual's request/choice (perhaps foreseeing the reaction from some of their GG co-workers? ). I'm not familiar with the organization's LGBT policies, but they are a large US employer... No doubt they do have a decent one in place.


I was also curious as to *why* these GG's felt this way -- Is it because of what some have already mentioned, at a general level? Or, is it more individual-specific, as from I understand, this person wasn't exactly the most-liked as a male, even to the point of being considered by some GG's as giving off a bit of a "weird/creepy" vibe?

Sounds like a mix of both, which is what I suspected.


Anyway...

Time for the last follow-up question!


Do you think certain variables may sway some GG's one way or another, as it pertains to the whole "CD'er in the women's room" thingy?

For example, take two CD'ers... One is pretty legit looking, on all kind of levels. Femininely fit & trim, 5'7", dressed like a lot of GG's for that time & place, pretty face, seemingly respectful & conscientious, with a femmy build, movement & aura. Heck, if it weren't for that last glance, maybe you (the GG) wouldn't have even realized it was a CD'er!

The other CD'er? 6'3", 265 pounds, built like a linebacker, clearly-visible chest hair sticking out from their top, horrible wig & make-up job, outfit totally out of place, barging in & lumbering around like a big male oaf who really needs to use the restroom.


Perhaps some GG's would be more apt to accept the first CD'er, over the second?


Thanks again!

[char GG]

I could not speak for what other GG's will or won't accept so I won't even try.

Edit: Most likely, other friends have shared a public restroom with a CDer at some point but didn't care enough to comment. Honestly, I rarely see a CDer in public much less the restrooms. The examples I relayed were the ones women did talk about or I witnessed.

CDers and what they do and where they go, are just not a topic that comes up in day to day conversations.

One more point to add to Reine and Di's suggestions, never take your phone out and take pictures of yourself or anything else in there.

[ReineD]

I don’t mind CDers using women’s bathrooms, as long as they’re in there just to relieve themselves and wash their hands. I understand not wanting to be dressed in men’s bathrooms. I’ve been in all-gender bathrooms where everyone does their business in private cubicles and washes their hands in a common area. No big deal.

I do however object to CDers using the female facilities for kicks, or as they put it, "for a female bonding experience". I’ve read this fantasy many times here. These people seem to get some sort of thrill out of having "girlie" contact with other women using the bathroom, i.e. they imagine complimenting someone’s shade of lipstick (if anyone even puts on lipstick anymore lol), or shoes, etc. Public bathrooms are utilitarian, just like the men’s room. They are not girlie bonding places. I’d be creeped out if I saw a CDer in a public bathroom eyeing me and wanting to start a conversation, or even just dawdling in there. But if he simply did what he had to do, washed his hands and left, like the rest of us, I would not have an issue with it.

As to other GG attitudes, it has never come up as a topic of conversation with my friends. You’d be surprised at how below-the-radar the topic of CDers in women’s bathrooms is, given the very small percentage of MtFs out there (compared to the general population). Some GGs would be OK with it, and others not. We seem to be going backwards in this country with acceptance of LGBTQ and I’m not surprised you’ve encountered negativity.

Your follow up questions:

I was also curious as to *why* these GG's felt this way -- Is it because of what some have already mentioned, at a general level? Or, is it more individual-specific, as from I understand, this person wasn't exactly the most-liked as a male, even to the point of being considered by some GG's as giving off a bit of a "weird/creepy" vibe?

If a GG doesn’t like the coworker as a male, then she won’t like him more if he is crossdressed in the bathroom, or even out in the general office for that matter. This has nothing to do with whether or not this GG is accepting of the LGBT community. And as mentioned above, some people are OK with alternative lifestyles and others are not. There’s no magic formula to determine who will be OK/not OK with it or what percentage of the population is OK/not OK with it, since attitudes are formed depending on political geographic areas, urban (more exposure to diversity) vs rural (less exposure) communities, population demographics such as age, education levels, socio-economic status, religious beliefs, etc.

Do you think certain variables may sway some GG's one way or another …
For example, take two CD'ers... One is pretty legit looking, …
The other … 6'3", 265 pounds, built like a linebacker, clearly-visible chest hair sticking out from their top, horrible wig & make-up job, outfit totally out of place, barging in & lumbering around like a big male oaf who really needs to use the restroom.

I doubt that anyone built like a linebacker as you describe will go out in the mainstream public, let alone go to a female bathroom. I’ve read countless posts here from members who dress strictly at home because they know they do not pass. They might go to a gay/alt club and I’m sure that if they used the female bathroom there, no one would object.

There are very few MtFs who can pass totally as female upon close inspection, and again, some GGs will be OK with it and others will not, depending on all the factors mentioned above.

[Di]

I care care less about CDers using the restroom and like I said Sher did . I do not care how they look.

Can not say what other GGs think.

I mentioned the event above because I witnessed it .
My guess they were doing the fantasy fem experience thing we read about here, doing their make up, talking to everyone & loitering. Just go in then wash your hands and leave like everyone else . Then no problem.

More than that like I said you feel red flags as it is not how women act in bathrooms and those not knowing about cding would feel threatened.

[Miel GG]

I agree with the other GGs.

Personnaly I don't care about a CD or Trans using the women's restroom if he/she is acting like a true GG (and not a fantasized one).
But on a general level it is a very complicated question because sex and gender are complicated concepts too. I have yet to take a final position on the restroom question.

GGs are evolving in a binary world and are used to separate toilets. And maybe this separation will be necessary as long as men carry on acting like disrespectful persons, stalkers, predators... Toilets are usually a safe place for GGs. Don' forget that GGs will often clock CDs and a man is an intruder (and the fact they wear female attributes is more worrying than reassuring).

I think also that there are some differences (level of dysphoria) between a CD/transvestite and a person who is officially transitioning. One could be labelled as genderfluid and the other as transgender.

So if a straight guy wants to present as female from time to time but doesn't identify himself as female 90% of the time should he be allowed to use women's restroom ? My answer is probably no. He belongs to the male restroom because it is only a question of outfit. But, due to his external presentation, the male restroom isn't a safe place anymore for him. So using the Ladies' room is a short term answer to this safety problem. But I haven't seen yet a CD demanding a safe access to male restrooms while I have seen a lot complaining about the bad GGs who do not want them in their toilets. Why ?

Of course the problem is different with a transwoman who rejects her sex at birth. This person should have the right to access to the restroom of her choice. But again, in our binary world, this situation will induce fear on GGs' part.

Maybe the best would be for CDs/Trans to educate themselves on the behaviour of most GGs and on the behaviour they should adopt in order to not disturb or worry GGs, don't you think ?

My final point is that gender neutral toilets are probably the best solution. In my country there are few. We have 3 restroom's types (in the best case) : male, female and physically handicapped.

Also... My feminist friends are the only people I know talking about LGBT toilet access ! As for GGs they have their own problems to solve and we talk a lot about "potty parity".

[Mary Loo]

Well, I want to get some GG feedback.

A couple of times this past week I awoke in the middle of the night to find my wife awake and on her phone and unable to sleep. The second occurrence, I asked what was keeping her up and she indicated it wasn’t something she wanted to discuss nor make me burdened with as well.

So fast forward to this morning and the subject of her concerns surfaced again in whatever context. She said it was her struggling with cross dressing in general and of course relative to me. She was reluctant to share for fear of how I might react to her comments.

Here goes : she is struggling with accepting cross dressing. She was trying to determine why it is bothering her so much and trying to explain to herself what it is that is making her upset. She is generally very accepting and has always seemed to understand a desire or want to cross dress. However, now she is angry that “man”kind has repressed and burdened women over the centuries and created clothing and standards that bind and prevent women from doing things that men could do. For example, you can’t run and be active and do a lot of things when in heels. Girdles and bras and corsets restrict movement and comfort to adhere to men’s vision of beauty and femininity. In other words women have been forced to adhere to men’s standards of beauty and femininity and have consequently been repressed and persecuted.

Essentially she is angry that cross dressers embrace these items that women were “forced” to wear and that she feels it is insulting and degrading. She likened it to white men wearing black face to “emulate” white people’s view of black people, not actual black people. In other words in her mind, when cross dresssers are trying to admire or pay homage to women with their emulation of “beauty” heels and pantyhose and bras and girdles and such, that instead they are adhering to the negative associated items that men forced on women and thus it is disrespectful.

I honestly do get it and understand her thoughts, and told her I don’t judge her for that opinion, but I want to ask if this is a common feeling amongst GGs and spouses of cross dresssers? I don’t know how to respond to her other than I can understand or respect her point of view, but it isn’t going to make me want to stop. In her mind, she wants me to think of these things every time I dress and to push a negative thought process to make me not want to cross dress anymore. She is currently struggling with herself to where she doesn’t want to be accepting, but at the same time loves me and wants to not be negative or controlling. She just wishes it would all just magically go away. She has tried to not put her foot down with me or say no to ANY cross dressing activity, but now is sort of wanting her feelings to be adhered to and is sort of leaning that way of being more upset with it than she has been in the past.

She has known about my cross dressing desires and activities since very early on in our 30+ year relationship, but only fairly recently have I started to “up my game” with a pair of heels and a wig and a few of my own clothes. It has been more of a open discussion of late and less unmentioned or infrequent.

Anyway, sorry if I haven’t expressed her thoughts coherently or clearly, but again, I just want to know if her opinions have been frequently expressed by other GGs and spouses in the FAB forum or such.

Thanks for reading.

[char GG]

Your wife is just letting you know how she feels. It's only natural that it's on her mind a lot.

I don't know how old your wife is, but my experience was quite similar. Girls HAD to wear dresses/skirts from the time I was in kindergarten until my senior year in high school. In elementary school, the girls soon learned to wear shorts under their dresses. The boys would like to come behind us and throw our dresses up and yell, "it's dress up day". Swinging on the swings, playing on the monkey bars, sliding down the slides, and most of the playground equipment wasn't meant to be used while wearing a dress. At my grandparent's farm, if any girls had on a dress (which my mother made me wear), we couldn't climb the apple trees or play in the hayloft. Dresses were also required for winter. Most of us had to walk to school, so either snow pants or some other pants were required to avoid frozen legs by the time we got to school. For those of us, like your wife, who remember how limiting dresses can be for a child. Boys didn't have that limitation. Some of the early CDer boys might think it's all fun and games to hide in their room with a bra and panties taken from mom or sister's closet, but it was not fun for little girls to either be left out of outdoor fun or have to adapt (like wearing shorts/tights) under their dresses.

As we got older, many of us were teased by boys because sometimes a bra outline could be seen. Until pantyhose came along, garters dug into our legs when we sat on those wooden school chairs. I could go on, but I think you get the picture.

Personally, I had to take a stand at home and refuse to wear a dress when I saw an opportunity for more fun by wearing pants/shorts. Not all girls could get away with that during that era.

So, not to make this answer about me, but I sympathize and understand what your wife is saying. What I think she means is, she doesn't really understand the attraction you would have to women's clothes. You were not socialized as a girl (I assume), so to you may find CDing to be tantalizing and a bit risque to dress like a girl. But to some women, it's just curious as to why they would want to. In your case, your wife finds it "insulting and degrading". We don't really have to understand to accept that some men just have that proclivity to dress like a woman. Your wife is going to feel how she feels and there is nothing you can do but try to understand that her life growing up was not your life. My hubby got to do a lot of things as a child growing up, that I had to take a stand against the norms to be able to do as a girl.

Also, this may be a shock to some on this forum, but many girls were not and are still not interested in makeup and fashion. Some ladies think that stuff is frivolous and vain. I don't know anything about your wife, but she may possibly struggle with what she might feel is the narcissistic nature of CDing. Not to say that you are that way, however, if she has done any research, she may get that opinion of CDing in general.

I think that the only thing you can do is to listen to her. You can explain how YOU feel but you can't make her life experiences from the past any different. It's just a matter of understanding other's perspectives.

One more thing... I don't know how long your wife has known about your CDing. It sounds like a long time, but you said that you recently have "up'ed your game". You know her better than any of us, so only you can help her with her feelings. Sometimes our "demons" come to us during the night, when there are no other distractions. Your wife is as you said, "struggling". All you and do is keep the lines of communication and trust open.

[Miel GG]

Char has already given a lot of relevant information.

It is not clear for me if your wife was struggling with your CDing before or after you started to "up your game", because buying a wig and heels can be a stressful signal for a wife. Were these purchases discussed together beforehand ? Did she have the opportunity to express her concerns about these purchases ? (I don't know the terms of the agreement about CDing between you two)

About your wife finding CDing offensive... These thoughts are fairly common among feminists who call out to men in general and to CDs/transwomen in particular about the stereotyped images of women and femininity that they (not all of them) enhance and perpetuate.
But you seemed to understand that point already Mary Loo.

I totally understand the feelings and thoughts of your wife, I was very upset when my hubby came out to me for that reason too, especially because I cannot understand why he stands for woman's rights on one hand and why he "emulates" a stereotyped woman from another time on the other hand. I guess your wife doesn't really want you to think about these things nor stop CDing, but it has been comforting for myself when, after a lot of discussion and exchanges, my hubby and I agreed on the fact that he was not trying to emulate a true GG but an archetypal female when CDing. I hope you and your wife will find a way to calm things down.

[Mimi]

I definitely feel like many CDers are emulating the styles of the 1950s and 60s, and wish that women would still dress that way. It is degrading and insulting, especially when they imply that women who don't care about makeup and hair styles and stockings and high heels are somehow less feminine, and that the CDer is more feminine, or knows more about being a real woman. I think it is narcissistic to obsess about nails and hair styles. I don't feel at all flattered if someone says they are wearing a girdle or heels or a tight mini skirt as homage to how they think women should behave or dress. If they want to say that they like the vintage look, that's fine and a personal preference, but don't go saying that all women should still dress like Donna Reed. Don't expect us to thrill to your teenage fantasy of what the high school prom queen back in the 60s might have worn. If you want to go out in public dressed as a woman, then dress to blend in, not stand out.
,

[Dutchess]

Id looked at this for awhile trying to find the words I wanted but Mimi said almost word for word what I wanted to say.. I agree with Char and Miel also..

If I had anything more to add it would be that I see CDing as a very masculine activity..no matter how some protest to the contrary I see them as emulating the type of woman that turns them on .....past or present ..... With that If eel that sometimes because most real women don't wear these things, then fine , the cd'ers will just BECOME what they want..so no room for me there or I get left behind for the obsession ... so you know,I'm certainly not going to be interested in such a scenario/person anymore.. I used to be able to deal with that but can't now for whatever reason.

So yeah males made up all the above clothing and if we don't want to look like that it feels/seems like/READS like alot of cd'ers would rather have a fake version of us.


PS To whom it may concern , women don't sit around and cry all the time either and I see that all OVER the forum..we just dont. If Your family drilled unemotional and hyper masculine into your head then fine, thats your family.. All the guys I've been with since 1975 were gentle and not afraid to show emotion . I've never been into cold uncaring men .

[Mary Loo]

Thank you to Char, Miel, Mimi, and Dutchess for your replies and the GG perspective that I asked for. I truly do understand what each of your responses meant and that there was consistency amongst them and with my wife’s comments. Though her comments had caught me a little off guard at the time, they did make sense and your replies confirmed they were perfectly “normal”. I do agree that the members on here tend to live in our own fantasy worlds and a dose of reality and historical background can be very useful. Your feedback, as always, is invaluable.

It is helpful to be able to have this forum to discuss and learn the perspectives from all sides.

Thanks again!

[ReineD]

Your wife is certainly not alone in thinking the way she does and I share her sentiments. After the "young woman" life phase has passed and her mate is secured, a woman does not need to wear clothes that show off her boobs, butt, and legs in order to have a meaningful life. In fact, dressing as if she is trolling for men will damage her career path. Unfortunately, this style of dress seems to be the focus of many if not most CDers. And so most wives simply ask themselves why their CDing husbands choose the styles they do.

Years ago, Helen Boyd (author of My Husband Betty) wrote one thing that I will never forget: she would make it a priority to teach her husband all about feminism, because it seemed that her husband relished gender inequality. I mention this to illustrate that your wife’s feelings are shared by many wives, including book authors.

Back to your situation: I can understand why your wife is upset if you have, as you say, upped your game. And judging by her remarks, I’m guessing that you like to dress in a style that is designed to please men? Your wife likely wonders why, and how far it will go. Even though she is generally accepting of LGBTQ, it is one thing to support individual expression and quite another to support a husband who behaves as if he wants to be a man-pleasing woman.

Might a compromise be that you continue to crossdress, but in styles similar to what your wife wears every day? I’m assuming she wears flat shoes and pants or jeans? You could find a cute pair of loafers, and women’s pants/jeans are indeed cut differently than men’s. As to breast forms, many women do not have, nor do they try to show-off if they do have, boobs that would cause a guy to have a double-take. Might you consider smaller breast forms and/or perhaps looser tops?

Good luck!

[Di]

I had limited time to post earlier but our wonderful GGs came through with flying colours.
I cannot add to their wise words as elegantly.

Wanted to add something that I agree with Dutchess about.
The CDs here that boast / complain how much more feminine they are than the wife because the cd wears stockings, heels, dresses, vintage nightie ect ect and the wife does not.
I would say nope I see masculine energy/ dressing in what turns you on only. I also feel bad for the wife.
Back to the OP I see from other posts of yours you understand and have empathy for your wifes feelings and feel you will talk it out . I think your upping the game scared her and is worried/ confused how far will this go and does he want to attract men. It can be scary and confusing.
Best wishes

[kimdl93]

Darn, its been quiet here for a while. I have a question, with just a bit of context. I have quite a few GG friends who have known about me for years and continue to be immensely supportive and encouraging. Why does it seem that women are more likely to be supportive? (This question is not with respect to significant others?that is a whole other kettle of fish)

[char GG]

I will generalize here. This thought process does not pertain to all GG's or all men.

Most GG's, that I know, have a "live and let live" attitude. Most guys, that I know, seem to have a "men should act like men" attitude. (Even though all men and women act different from each other.) You might know more about why men act like that than I do.

Just my opinion, but it seems that back when my children were in school, moms came in contact with a variety of quirks that children display. The men usually were not that involved and did not seem to be interested in children other than their own. I just think women get more used to non-standard behavior.

I also think that many men don't want to be supportive of men who wear women's clothes for fear of criticized by other men.

[Di]

.

I also think that many men don't want to be supportive of men who wear women's clothes for fear of criticized by other men.

Agree with the above statement..it is men insecurities IMO and how men are raised.
Closed-minded people put their ego ahead of the outcome. They refrain from inquiring and instead focus on disproving others without attempting to comprehend .
They were raised told it is not what a man/ boy would do and they ( many ) do not question it.

Of course can be men or women but I find often it is more men like that. Things being black and white.

[Dutchess]

Because most women are nurturers .. either born that way , raised up that way or a mix of all . I think most of us are born with that - kids or no kids .. it was our role biologically since time began .. and even as civilized as we all are today , its still in there .
Now of course men and women feel free -er to be that way or not be that way but for this post ...

I looked up that word in the Cambridge dictionary and it says :to take care of, feed, and protect someone or something, especially young children or plants, and help him, her, or it to develop: May 31, 2023

That built in nurturing thing that most of us have translates away from our kids and so's and extends to others as well . Our friends , relatives and people we see that we sense need some sort of support/feel included .. I do it all the time .

[ReineD]

Agree with the answers so far.

Also, there have been many studies reporting that women generally are more supportive of gay relationships than men, and that lesbian relationships are generally better tolerated than gay relationships, but relatively few studies have determined why this is, except the one in the link below.

According to that study, it’s a question of choosing the lesser evil. Women are generally suspicious of straight men who are strangers, because they are wary of being hit on. But this disappears if they know that the man is gay. And since many people assume that CDers are gay (or they are not like "straight men"), this attitude must also extend to CDers?

http://www.psychologicalscience.org/...suggests.htmly


Another reason, and this I have witnessed personally through my sons, is that younger men tend to avoid at all costs anything that would brand them as gay or as "lesser than". For example, you won’t find a male teenager willingly use a pink umbrella. And I think this extends to adulthood for many, although not all men. They wish to avoid any association with homosexuality, including the approval of it, for fear of being branded as such. Obviously this does not apply to women.

I also think that younger generations of men aren’t quite as homo/trans-phobic as their fathers’ generation. I’ve seen a wider acceptance of "queerness" among younger straight males, likely because the gender gap has narrowed considerably in the last few decades as most women are now in the workforce and most men share the household and child rearing responsibilities.

[Miel GG]

Agree with the previous answers.

I will add that women are experiencing discrimination and inequality. That could lead to be helpful and supportive of those who are discriminated too. For example, a study concludes that women are more likely to hire gay persons ( https://link.springer.com/article/10...869-015-9412-y).

[BustyOlivia]

Just curious how GGs feel about us given the current state of the world with drag queens and everything? Do we infringe on women?s place in the world? Forgive my ignorance please girls

[char GG]

I do not feel that drag queens or CDers infringe on anything that pertains to me.

[ReineD]

BustyOlivia, I’ve seen opinions here over the years from CDers who believe that women feel jealous or are threatened by CDers. Apparently some CDers believe that women see these CDers as competition. If this is what you mean by "infringe", then I can answer with a resounding no. I personally have never met a CDer whom I felt was competition for anything, let alone for the attention of any man that I might have been interested in.

I don’t believe that a guy who would be attracted to me would also be attracted to any CDer - guys can tell whether someone is a woman or a CDer when they talk to them for awhile. Men who want to be with women don’t tend to be attracted to CDers and men who are attracted to CDers don’t generally tend to be attracted to women … in my experience.

So, no competition there!

But if you mean something other than this when you say "infringe on a woman’s place in the world", them please elaborate.

[Di]

Infringe no
Live and let live .
It is disturbing how people that do not understand others do a gang up hate campaign.
Like to say more but rules .
It is really sad , scary and disturbing.