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Thread: Are we LGBTQ?

  1. #1
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    Are we LGBTQ?

    My employer offered an optional seminar to raise awareness about LGBTQ. Discussion on gender, sex, pronouns, challenges, etc.

    The speaker was a transfemine non-binary person from an Los Angeles LGBT organization.

    This individual (they) clearly thought of Crossdressers as excluded from LGBTQ.

    During their presentation, Drag was described as only for entertainment and not part of gender identity.

    And then when later asked specifically about cross dressers inclusion in LGBTQ, their response was that CDs do it for sexual reasons and not part of their identity. So No.

    I know some of you will say who cares about whether or not we?re in the LGBTQ community. And here we go again with the labels. ..But I was pretty surprised by the explicit exclusion. Particularly when gender fluidity was part of the conversation.

    What do you think? Are we in or out and why?
    Last edited by Michelle Vinova; 06-16-2020 at 04:42 PM.

  2. #2
    There's that smile! CarlaWestin's Avatar
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    I'm a crossdresser for pleasure. It used to be an escape obsession but now it's just a unique personal comfort zone.
    I am none of the other letters and never will be. I don't consider any denial by being excluded from anything.
    The latest awareness escalation is political at best IMHO. So, add me to the don't care list.
    I've waited so long for this time. Makeup is so frustrating. Shaking hands and I look so old. This was a mistake.
    My new maid's outfit is cute. Sure fits tight.
    And then I step into the bedroom and in the mirror, I see a beautiful woman looking back at me.
    Smile, Honey! You look fabulous!

  3. #3
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    Like it or not I think CD's fall under the Transgender umbrella. But I have had quite a few CD's here adamantly disagree with that

    Drag Queens maybe or maybe not. As I know some of the local Queens are theater majors at the local university, and are basically doing it just for the tips.
    Last edited by Robertacd; 06-16-2020 at 08:37 PM.

  4. #4
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    As primarily heterosexual males, it makes sense that most CDs not really caring about being part of the LGBT activism. And thus, LGBT dont view us as part of their community.

    But I agree with you Carly that CDing is part of personal comfort zone. I think transgenderism is a spectrum and CDs are on the lower end where we do have the need to express our femininity but don?t need to transition full time.

    Where it matters beyond silly politics is the recent Supreme Court decision in the U.S. ... if we are included, we are in the protected class if we were to be fired from our job because our employer found out we CD.

  5. #5
    Aspiring Member Sandi Beech's Avatar
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    Wow this one could be a hot potato discussion so I am not going the weigh in other than this thought. One of our local drag queens was also Miss Gay America as I believe the title said a few years ago. So where would that leave her?

    I guess it would really just depend on how the person feels about their orientation, not how they dress or choose to entertain.

    Sandi
    Last edited by Sandi Beech; 06-16-2020 at 05:33 PM.

  6. #6
    Aspiring Member Kimberly A.'s Avatar
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    Michelle, I think it's really a matter of opinion and who you ask..... It is of MY personal opinion that CD'ers are not LGBTQ, unless they are gay, bisexual or transgender. Also, I guess, unless you just wish to identify as such.

    As for me, I do not wish to identify as being part of the LGBTQ community. I am a 100% straight guy who likes to cross-dress and I have NO desire, whatsoever of being transgender. I cross-dress, not because it's a fetish, but it is very pleasurable for me and I just like to temporarily be a woman every so often..... If that makes any sense. LOL

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    [QUOTE=Robertacd;4454379]Like it or not I think CD's fall under the Transgender umbrella.

    Roberta, I must respectfully disagree with that..... If most, if not all M to F CD'ers here who are like me and do not wish to transition to the opposite gender, then it would stand to reason that we don't identify as being transgender, or part of the LGBTQ community.

    Now, for those of us who go out in public while dressed, if we were to be figured out by other people that we are, in fact, men in women's clothing, then yes someone may assume that we're gay or transgender...… But you know what they say about assuming.
    I may be crazy, but I'm BURIED in your memory!

  7. #7
    happy to be her Sarah Charles's Avatar
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    If we are to use the term "Transgender" as an umbrella term, there is no reason not to include CD's. You can say what you will about where you or someone you know will end up, but I doubt there is a consistent way to forecast any one person's future. So where is the benefit in excluding anyone who experiences any value in exploring beyond their assigned gender at birth?

    My definition of Transgender is any behavior that breaks away from the normal ranges that define Cis-gender and provide any satisfaction or comfort. It extends all the way to a full medical, social, legal and psychological transition. That's what an umbrella does, it covers and protects as much as possible. As soon as that protection is removed from someone arbitrarily classified as a Crossdresser, just pushes them away and exposes them to unnecessary and unwanted judgement.

    From the age of 5 or 6 until I started hormones over 60 years later I was attempting to understand the complex relationship I had with gender. Each time I was crossdressed I was probably dealing at some level with dysphoria, even if I didn't recognize it at the time. As I changed, so did the dysphoria. I spent those years exploring and coming to terms with who I have become and would argue there is no single point in that timeline where I was not Transgender. I may have called myself a Crossdresser and I may have convinced others there was no chance in the world I would consider transition, but here I am. When I crossdress now, I pretend to be a man, am I no longer transgender when that happens? It's not time to split hairs or be exclusionary, open it up as wide as possible and let's have as many members and allies as possible as we move forward.
    Sarah
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  8. #8
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    It depends.

    I'm low on the scale so see myself not part of LGBT as I'm a heteroosexual male who just happens to have a particular sartorial affection.

    But I can also see that those who take things further could and should be included especially if they are then discriminated against in society.

  9. #9
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    So crossdressing is an effect that has a consciousness based/psychological cause. Transvestism. Though usually it is a temporary crossing over from one thing to the other, as perhaps a coping mechanism. Perhaps the temporary nature of it does not fit in with LGBTQI.... So it depends on the individual circumstances and what impact it has on ones life overall.

    Well that post achieved a lot.

  10. #10
    Resident Polymath MarinaTwelve200's Avatar
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    Some LGBTQs Cross dress----But it is more of an IDENTITY thing and sometimes a dating "Strategy". But us CDers / Transvestites are straight and do not Identify as women being part of the definition. It has a Direct connection to Sexual feelings but varies, as in fetishism, sadomasochism (Humiliation) autogynephilia, and other non sexual identity based urges like "escapisim" and the "rush" one get from violating Taboos etc.---- As the REASONS we Cross dress vary widely and are more Psychologically based rather than A congenital biological condition like in LGBQT cases.

  11. #11
    Junior Member SirDonna's Avatar
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    Have you listened to the agony on the forum? I don't see this agony being any different than the agony of being gay. I guess some LGBTQ are not LGBTQ+ and are more NIMBY

  12. #12
    Silver Member Micki_Finn's Avatar
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    They are correct on Drag not being gender identity, though there are gender variant people who do drag. As far as the crossdresser thing, it?s a semantics issue. Many within the LGBT community will say that if you?re NOT doing it for sexual pleasure, that makes you trans. Just because you don?t want to transition doesn?t make you not trans. There are LOTS of trans folks who have no desire to modify their bodies surgically or hormonally.
    So it?s more that the LGBTQ community uses a wider definition of trans, and a narrower definition of ?crossdresser?. I?ve mentioned this a few times on these forums.
    Last edited by Micki_Finn; 06-16-2020 at 07:41 PM.

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    If you Google ?what does the Q stand for in LGBTQ? you get the answer ?queer? or ?questioning?.

    On that basis, it probably boils down to, do you think you are LGBTQ? - as the Q would seem to be fairly open to interpretation.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Micki_Finn View Post
    They are correct on Drag not being gender identity, though there are gender variant people who do drag. As far as the crossdresser thing, it?s a semantics issue. Many within the LGBT community will say that if you?re NOT doing it for sexual pleasure, that makes you trans. Just because you don?t want to transition doesn?t make you not trans. There are LOTS of trans folks who have no desire to modify their bodies surgically or hormonally.
    So it?s more that the LGBTQ community uses a wider definition of trans, and a narrower definition of ?crossdresser?. I?ve mentioned this a few times on these forums.

    Thanks Micki

    I think that?s what caught me most off guard was to so narrowly define CDs as only doing it for sexual reasons.

    If they would have described it as you have ...or others above have with the nuances ... would?ve been appreciated. Instead, they left a group of people thinking that cross dressers just do it for a sexual fetish.

  15. #15
    Country Gal.... Megan G's Avatar
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    Right from glaad’s website (https://www.glaad.org/transgender/transfaq)

    “ Transgender is a term used to describe people whose gender identity differs from the sex they were assigned at birth. Gender identity is a person's internal, personal sense of being a man or a woman (or boy or girl.) For some people, their gender identity does not fit neatly into those two choices. For transgender people, the sex they were assigned at birth and their own internal gender identity do not match.”

    So with that said since you all identify firmly as males, your gender identity matches your birth gender..... you do not belong under the “transgender” label. I’ve seen stuff that does include you but honestly if you read above you can see why this is not possible.

    As for being a part of the LGBT...... unless your gay than again the answer would be no...... your a bunch of heterosexual dudes that like to dress up..... that’s it....and nothing to be ashamed about..
    I'm outta here...

  16. #16
    Member HelpMe,Rhonda's Avatar
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    If we're not, we're adjacent. We certainly can face some of the same issues.

    As for GLAAD's definition, I'd say my gender identity does not fit neatly into those two choices. And these pages are filled with stories of other people judging members to not be the gender they were assigned at birth when that side of them is revealed.
    Last edited by HelpMe,Rhonda; 06-16-2020 at 08:58 PM.

  17. #17
    🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥 Patience's Avatar
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    It's funny. I once posted a thread asking the forum if we were queer and a lot of people thought that the term had far too much baggage for comfort.

    My personal first outing was during a Pride weekend and like de facto LGBTQ folk, CDers are usually either suffering in closets and dying to come out or being chastised for wanting to be who they are. We definitely benefit from any social advances LGBTQs enjoy, as well as the flak whether we feel we deserve it or not, so I'd say we're on the fringe of that group, at least. How deep varies from person to person.
    ...throw off those chains of Reason and your prison disappears...

  18. #18
    Member Natalie5004's Avatar
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    According to what I have read. Transvestite is for people that wear opposite sex clothes. Trans- means change and vestite is a Latin term for clothes. It has no sexual references.

    Therefore I am a part time Transvestite. I do not desire to change my sex or alter my body, (other than pierced ears). I am not a woman trapped in a man's body.

    I also understand that as straight men wearing womens clothes there are circles in the LGBQT (Letter of the month) that are not thrilled with us. Personally, I dress at home exclusively so far. So I am not part of the conversation.

    Those of you that have read my posts in the past, here is some good news. My false eyelashes went on in about 30 seconds today. It is getting easier. As a side note to a side note, my wife call me at home and told me what time she was coming home from work. We both knew what that meant and why she did it. I thanked her.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan G View Post
    Right from glaad?s website (https://www.glaad.org/transgender/transfaq)

    ? Transgender is a term used to describe people whose gender identity differs from the sex they were assigned at birth. Gender identity is a person's internal, personal sense of being a man or a woman (or boy or girl.) For some people, their gender identity does not fit neatly into those two choices. For transgender people, the sex they were assigned at birth and their own internal gender identity do not match.?

    So with that said since you all identify firmly as males, your gender identity matches your birth gender..... you do not belong under the ?transgender? label. I?ve seen stuff that does include you but honestly if you read above you can see why this is not possible.

    As for being a part of the LGBT...... unless your gay than again the answer would be no...... your a bunch of heterosexual dudes that like to dress up..... that?s it....and nothing to be ashamed about..
    Megan. For me you are spot on.

  19. #19
    Member Robin-in-TX's Avatar
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    Everyone has to answer that for him or herself. To me, CD and transgender are separate things. CD's were born with a body that matches their soul, but they prefer to present as the opposite sex from time to time. Trans peoples' body and soul do not match. My parents gave me the body of a man to hold the God given soul of a woman. Nature makes lots of mistakes and that is one of them for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimberly A. View Post
    I am a 100% straight guy who likes to cross-dress and I have NO desire, whatsoever of being transgender.
    Good luck with that, I said the same thing for over 40 years. In fact you can go back through this boards archives and probably find a post with me saying basically the same thing.

    I was lying to myself most of all...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kimberly A. View Post
    Roberta, I must respectfully disagree with that..... If most, if not all M to F CD'ers here who are like me and do not wish to transition to the opposite gender, then it would stand to reason that we don't identify as being transgender, or part of the LGBTQ community.
    Where does it say that all transgender people desire to transition?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kimberly A. View Post
    Now, for those of us who go out in public while dressed, if we were to be figured out by other people that we are, in fact, men in women's clothing, then yes someone may assume that we're gay or transgender...? But you know what they say about assuming.
    LOL IF We are all nice to each other here, but to be honest I have yet to see pictures of any MtoF CD on this forum that fully passes, myself included. Yet I have been going out in public dressed almost daily for over a year and I can count the number of times I was called Sir instead of Ma'am on one hand.

    Am I %99.999 passing? Am I fooling everyone?

    Not a chance, but then I am not trying to fool anyone.

    I am Transgender and people accept that.
    Last edited by Robertacd; 06-16-2020 at 10:08 PM.

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    I find it interesting that now that the LGBTQ have been recognized and protected CDs are not included. If I wear women's clothes full time, because I find those are closer to how I want to be treated and admired. As for sex, if I prefer women does that now make me a lesbian or just a straight man? It would have been much better if the court had said you can't fire someone for personal presentation or sexual conduct.

    As a manager I had several people that I knew fit into the various letters. I never once rated them based on presentation or who they chose to be with. Basically I think that some of the letters got theirs and could less about those left behind.

  22. #22
    Aspiring Member Kimberly A.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertacd View Post
    Good luck with that, I said the same thing for over 40 years. In fact you can go back through this boards archives and probably find a post with me saying basically the same thing.

    I was lying to myself most of all...

    Roberta, I'm not lying to myself...? I'm comfortable being a man, most of the time, (meaning I'm in "male mode" most of the time and am comfortable with it) and comfortable temporarily being a woman when I get the chance and I do not now, nor have I ever had the desire to be transgender and I never will. I don't care WHAT anyone says, simply being a CD'er does NOT make a person trans.



    Where does it say that all transgender people desire to transition?

    Ok, I'm confused by this..... Don't ALL transgendered people desire to be the opposite gender than what they were born with?


    LOL IF We are all nice to each other here, but to be honest I have yet to see pictures of any MtoF CD on this forum that fully passes, myself included. Yet I have been going out in public dressed almost daily for over a year and I can count the number of times I was called Sir instead of Ma'am on one hand.

    Am I %99.999 passing? Am I fooling everyone?

    Not a chance, but then I am not trying to fool anyone.

    I am Transgender and people accept that.
    Well, that's one difference between you and I..... See, I try to pass as a female when I go out and I have yet to be addressed as "sir" when I'm out dressed..... However, I do doubt that I'm fooling everyone who sees Kimberly. LOL
    I may be crazy, but I'm BURIED in your memory!

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robin-in-TX View Post
    Everyone has to answer that for him or herself. To me, CD and transgender are separate things. CD's were born with a body that matches their soul, but they prefer to present as the opposite sex from time to time. Trans peoples' body and soul do not match. My parents gave me the body of a man to hold the God given soul of a woman. Nature makes lots of mistakes and that is one of them for me.

    Robin
    Are you saying that if I live as a woman I'm transgender, but if I wear women's clothes sometimes I'm a CD. even if most of the time I wear women's clothes?

  24. #24
    Member amandagurl2014's Avatar
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    The speaker in the opening post is wrong to exclude cd's. That want hold up in court.

  25. #25
    Isn't Life Grand? AllieSF's Avatar
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    This is always a topic that is debated by many on this site and elsewhere. However, that being said, the site's official definition includes crossdressers. If you want to argue that with the mods and admins to change it, have at it! You probably won't get too far. The umbrella term is used on this site and other reputable sites like Susan's Place (susans.org). It is used to try to avoid these senseless arguments. Plus, it is accepted by most medical organizations too. On this site anyways, if you walk like a duck and quack like one and look like one then you will be labeled one. Identify yourself as you wish, but do not expect others to see what you see through their own eyes. Have a happy day everyone!!

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