Are we LGBTQ?

[Jean 103]

What you have run into is this we are better than you opinion that some have.

I have seen it in group many times. They feel CDs are in denial. That they tarnish the image.

The group I go to meets at a LGBT center. in this college town an hour north of me. I had heard that a new gay bar had opened up in town there. After the meeting I asked Trans woman running the meeting if she had heard of it. She snapped at me, "we don't go to bars!" Really, I didn't bother telling her I was asking for a friend who is a GAY MAN.

This center sends out announcements about meeting at some bar for a mixer, all the time.

[AngelaYVR]

I would say that technically the speaker was right. It all boils down to whether you actually are more than a crossdresser but have not wrapped your head around the idea yet. Are you a CD who goes out in public, interacts with others and for all intents and purposes lives a life as another gender? My opinion is that you are transgender. It is also my opinion that the term is grotesquely lacking but there we are.

[Pixie_94]

I'm not trans or any of that, so, no.

[franlee]

I'm not trans or any of that, so, no.

Me either!

[Helen_Highwater]

I spend a very small percentage of my time dressed for all the world to see. Like many others I'm constrained by family/social issues. I dress indoors as often as I can as presenting as we do is an intrinsic part of who I am. It shapes not just my bust line but also the person I am.

I see no reason why I should have less protection of the law for going about living my life as I see fit. I'm not breaking any laws by dressing in public so why shouldn't I have the protection of the law to enable me to do so safely?

Take a random selection of males, line them up and ask others to "Spot the gay". Many gay men, and women, are indistinguishable from anyone else if simply looked at. There will be a few who's demeanour will stand out, appear that little bit more femme. Hence it's they who are perhaps most at risk because of how they present. So how are we different?

What we share, where we have common ground is it the fact that there are those who view anyone who strays away from their idea of the binary gender stereotype as deserving of persecution. Freaks, aberrations of nature. So my view is yes we fall under the LGBTQ umbrella, it's just that the community has been slow to actively present it's case in the same way the Gay community has.

[sara66]

dido to pixie_94.
Sara

[SheriM]

I look at it this way. The LGBT movement really exists to bring awareness and acceptance and to stop the bias/hate against people that some feel do not conform to their norms. There is certainly a public negative connotation to being a crossdresser or we wouldn't hide it. So yes, in that respect, I do feel that crossdressers could be part of the LGBT community. At least, with more acceptance of transgenders, etc, crossdressing is becoming more accepted as well.

[Paulie Birmingham]

Nope, not any part of that

[Ressie]

I'm repeating myself again but we're all individuals and unique. Some of us aren't sure what we are yet. I have friends that started out as CDs and it turned out that they wanted to transition and now consider themselves TG. Some thought they were TG yet found that they didn't want to transition.

The fact that we all wear women's clothes puts us all into a set that includes fetishistic CDs and MTF TGs. We can call the set "biological men that like to wear women's clothes". BMTLTWWC!

[NancySue]

I agree with Kimberly. From my view, there are three kinds of cders....straight, bi and gay. The latter two clearly relate to LGBTQ...check out the definition of each acronym. I?m straight, enjoy dressing and though I have nothing against them, have absolutely no interest in being associated with the LGBTQ community, even though, I think society puts us in their arena.

[Star01]

I am one of those who realized late in life that my crossdressing is here to stay and I am still trying to figure out where I fit in. Nevertheless, I can pay claim to having a foot in the door of LGBTQ status but not because of my crossdressing. I have dabbled with the B in LGBTQ but I don't think of myself as part of the LGBTQ community. There are a lot of people who fit in that category but aren't involved in the movement and don't go to the parades and events. I guess one could say that I punched my ticket to the pride parade but lost it somewhere in my purse.

[GretchenM]

There are at least two concepts of gender at work in the world that provides a definition to gender and gender variance. One fundamental concept is the gender binary. Here gender is determined by sex - if male then you are normally masculine and if female then feminine. Transgender becomes some kind of reversal of some indefinite degree and therefore classified by artificial criteria based mostly on a biased view of differences while pretty much ignoring similarities. Unfortunately, reality doesn't follow this simplistic way of looking at gender which is actually one of the most complex parts of human behavior that there is. And the gender binary opens the door to the development of hierarchies that usually end up with males being dominant and females being subordinate and justifying it with made up reasons. The classic and exaggerated "Leave it to Beaver" world view.

The other concept is something along the lines of the gender mosaic where there is only variation between people and precise classification according to some immutable characteristic such as a person's sex simple does not exist. Sex does not determine gender or even have much to do with gender. Gender in a very large majority of people is a blend of traits and characteristics that mostly are found in people of either sex with only a few being more strongly expressed in one sex and not the other. Gender is produced by the constantly varying configurations and neural pathways in the brain with very little influence from sex other than to define reproductive behavior. Gender is based upon looking at the entirety of gender characteristics rather than cherry picking those that support an assumption that men and women are different in all respects because they have different sexes. They look different so they must be different. That is part of the neuraltrash thinking common in the gender binary. The evidence says otherwise. But after thousands of years thinking that way, erroneously, the gender binary idea is kind of fused to our thinking in spite of being false in most respects.

Gender variance in each of these concepts creates a chaotic and rapidly changing mishmash of thinking, most of which is inconsistent or even illogical and full of contradictions and exceptions. The gender mosaic and similar non-binary concepts solves this problem by basically taking the position that gender cannot be broken down into a well structured classification simply because it is too complex to create a classification. In other words, when a very large population of "normal" and "variant" people is examined what you find is, when attempting to classify them, a continuous spectrum that is even more gradual than the colors in a rainbow which tend to have fuzzy but definite boundaries that are a result of quantum jumps in the breakdown of light produced by electrons in atoms jumping from electron shell to shell. Color in a rainbow represent different energy levels that do have a natural reality. That does not seem to be naturally present in gender identity and expression. In short, with gender, we are simply all different when one looks at the total package of gender traits and characteristics rather than only looking at the aspects to define our differences.

So, in this view, it is all a blending. CDs occupy their own zone, but at the boundaries they blend into adjacent forms and none of it can sensibly be represented with a linear concept. It is multi-linear and multi-dimensional. You are wherever you are in the multidimensional continuum that is gender. Any attempt at classification of genders creates breaks in the continuum where there are no breaks. Are CDs transgender? In such a complex continuum, perhaps the real question is whether the term transgender actually makes sense anymore with the biological reality apparently being that we are all different and therefore we are all equal because we are all different?

[Robin-in-TX]

Are you saying that if I live as a woman I'm transgender, but if I wear women's clothes sometimes I'm a CD. even if most of the time I wear women's clothes?

No, I did not say that at all. Again, I'm speaking for me and my world view, it could be different to you.

Being trans does not have a thing to do with the clothes you wear. Being trans is a sense of self and not a form of dress. I am trans, my soul does not match the 46 chromosomes I was given by my parents. I should have received a female body. Even if I never put on an article of female clothing, I still see myself as female.

If a person feels that their body matches their sense of being, then they are not trans. If that person wants to wear the clothes of the other gender, it does not change their sense of being.

Clothes do not make one trans.

[jacques]

hello Michelle,
I would say that if we self-identify as LGBTQ+ then that is what we are!
And perhaps there is an argument that we should... Crossdressing is very much still a taboo; that is why most of us do it in private.
Some feminists think that M2F trans-people are not real women and should not use women's toilets &c. (the author of the "Harry Potter" books has caused a controversy about this in the UK recently); so hobby crossdressers may not get much support from that "community" yet.
There seems to increasing public acceptance of the LGBTQ+ "community" - so perhaps we should become part of it is we wish to end discrimination?
It is worth thinking about.
Stay healthy,
Luv, J

[Krisi]

"The speaker was a transfemine non-binary person from an Los Angeles LGBT organization."

Well I wouldn't have bothered to go. You're listening to a person with a pretty obvious agenda who is trying to promote his/her agenda, not trying to listen or accept anyone elses.

[Robertacd]

It pains me to read all the mental gymnastics people use to explain how even though they are exactly the same as the group of people they claim to not belong to.

They are not one of "those people"...

Threads like this reek of Transphobia and it makes sad that they are continually allowed here.

[Teresa]

Michelle,
So right we are discsussing the problems with labels , the speaker is only half right but then also half wrong .

Basically what drives the majority to dress is a level of dysphoria , I do wonder hand on heart any of us would wear women's clothes if we had a choice but we don't . Some may pass it off as an enjoyable pastime but there are other pastimes that don't have many of us scuttling off before we get caught .

The point I'm making is we all have levels of transness , Natalie , you got it partly wrong trans = to cross , vestite = clothes/garb , hence we get crossdresser .

So do we wish to come under the LGBTQ label or not ? I argued that I'm not gay but then the T label isn't suggesting the trans part is gay . So should we look at it as safety in numbers or are we being misrepresented , the speaker is suggesting division within our community , she has no right to do that because in doing so she is misrepresenting us .

So what's the alternative , do we have a strong enough presents to stand alone ? I'm sorry I think not , the divisions within our own community means only a small percentage will want or need representing because so many are still totally or partially in the closet . Those who are out and making their presence known may wish to bang the drum for everyone but the problem is not everyone wants that . Eventually a trans person possibly not necessarily fully transitioned may just want to get on with their own lives without needing to keep banging the drum for themselves or others .

Reine often talks about what happens to members after the forum , she suggests some have stopped but the ones who haven't enter that period of their lives when being trans is a normal way of life .

Looked at the situation in that way we are lucky to have the forum because it fills the need to be heard in a very succesful way , lets also not forget this forum is read by many people other than members, from deeply closeted CDers to wives/partners and possibly their famillies and possibly friends or work colleagues who need to learn more .

Personally , I keep beating the drum , I suffered for many years before I came to terms with what I am , if I can help one other with their suffering then it's been worth remaining a member . Do I feel I need or get support and help from the LGBTQ community , not really , I feel most of the noise they make is in support of the gay community which is wonderful , I feel the Trans label is added mostly for appeasement , the verdict is still open if they do good or not for us .

The bottom line is as an inidividual if you feel the LGBTQ banner helps you no one is going to stop you joining them , the problem is some of the community don't or won't try and understand the trans community so we get the comments made in the opening thread . I question is it worth taking on that battle as well ?

[Kimberly A.]

Well then Roberta, if that's your opinion then don't read threads like this..... However, I'm not homophobic or transphobic; I say live and let live. However, I don't identify with the LGBTQ community at all and if anyone has a problem with that, well, that's their problem.

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I have something else to add...... I think that it's OK for straight guys, if we so choose to NOT identify as being transgender or part of the LGBTQ community. It's a matter of choice and while I know some here feel they have no choice but to be a CD'er, it IS a choice and simply a hobby for me and I can stop doing it anytime I choose..... But I choose not to stop. Lol

Some of y'all can argue that all you want, but that's my 2 cents.

[CarlaWestin]

If you Google ?what does the Q stand for in LGBTQ? you get the answer ?queer? or ?questioning?.

On that basis, it probably boils down to, do you think you are LGBTQ? - as the Q would seem to be fairly open to interpretation.

Quicksand!

[Genni]

I can't say if "we" are part of the LGBTQ community, but I am. The most apt description I could come up with for myself is "fem-leaning gender fluid." Physically I'm male, and sexually I'm straight, but I am somewhere on the transgender spectrum. My preferred pronouns are he/him or she/hers consistent with how I'm presenting. Transgender is not all-or-nothing. You get to decide what label, if any, fits you.

[CarlaWestin]

............ that they are continually allowed here.

Allowed? Transphobia?

[Asew]

I think this boils down to wide definitions versus narrow definitions (with a side of stereotypes to make it narrow). And these kind of definitions then boil down into being inclusionary or divisive. I think we should all prefer umbrella terms and being inclusive

[Stephanie47]

During their presentation, Drag was described as only for entertainment and not part of gender identity.
And then when later asked specifically about cross dressers inclusion in LGBTQ, their response was that CDs do it for sexual reasons and not part of their identity.

I can see where "drag" performances may be considered entertainment as drag is usually presented in an entertainment venue. That does not mean the person in drag and performing is not a transgender woman or transgender man. I think the general public thinks of drag as an "art form." I don't think one can gauged somebody's "gender identity" at a "drag" performance. Can you determine a person's sexual orientation just by looking at the person? No!

Crossdresser or crossdressing is no more than a word; a noun or adjective or verb. The word has nothing to do with a person's motivation to wear the clothes of the sex opposite of his or her birth sex. I'd like to see that person's credentials. I agree the person has an agenda to present which will accomplish nothing more than to muddy the waters for the general public. Would it be valid to paint transgender women as mere sexual creatures because there is transgender pornography? That person fails a basic course in philosophy.

Me? I have no idea why I do what I do. I can express how I feel when I don women's attire. But, I cannot tell you why I do it. Do I do it for sexual pleasure? No, not at all. Am I a transgender woman in denial? I do not believe so. I am totally fine functioning as a male in a male environment. But, that does not negate there are times I feel compelled to act in a different manner. What does it take to "flip the switch?"

A counselor I see for issues related to war induced PTSD is of the opinion there is some dna in everyone of the opposite sex. In some the opposite sex dna is greater than in others. I like her answer/opinion because it may be the answer as to where an individual falls on the continuum of a sexual being.

[Aunt Kelly]

Damn... Here we go again with the "labels" debate...

Labels and, indeed, the definition of any noun, are tools we use to communicate. They work as such by convention, and only to the degree that a given definition is agreed upon.

If a CD'er wants to insist that he is not transgender, there's little harm. There is a convention that anyone who is "gender non-conforming" is properly included in the "transgender" group. If you don't feel that you derive any benefit from using that label on yourself, or if you are afraid that using that label might make "less of a man", feel free to avoid it.

Some observations I've made over the years:

• A lot of crossdressers are "fetish" dressers. They almost invariably identify as "straight", sometimes stridently so.
• Some crossdressers actually do suffer from gender dysphoria. If we exclude the fetish motivator, "I just like the way it makes me feel... more relaxed... less anxious..." is kind of a giveway.
• Most crossdressers will deny that they suffer from gender dysphoria. I know that I did, for a long time.
• Most self-identified crossdressers who are motivated to proactively come to terms their gender dysphoria are happier for it.

That last one is a tough leap to make. It is markedly counterintuitive, but transphobia and homophobia are common in the group who identify as "just a crossdresser". I'm not saying that most crossdressers are anything other than "just" that, or that most aren't heterosexual, but I've yet to see a meaningful study on that, and if this group (forum members) is any indication some are not, or won't be, given enough time.

[josie_S]

I can't say if "we" are part of the LGBTQ community, but I am. The most apt description I could come up with for myself is "fem-leaning gender fluid." Physically I'm male, and sexually I'm straight, but I am somewhere on the transgender spectrum. My preferred pronouns are he/him or she/hers consistent with how I'm presenting. Transgender is not all-or-nothing. You get to decide what label, if any, fits you.

i think this is a great answer and overall applies to me as well