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Thread: Are we LGBTQ?

  1. #101
    New Member Cdsissymtl's Avatar
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    We?re the ?extra?. The icing on the cake!

  2. #102
    Junior Member Brandi17's Avatar
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    I don't think it will matter one way or another, because if an employer tries to fire anyone for cross dressing at this point I am pretty sure they would get fined. They would have a heck of a time proving your not Transgender or why they should be allowed to fire someone for how they choose to dress (unless there is a dress code, then maybe they have a case if you do it at work).

  3. #103
    Senior Member mbmeen12's Avatar
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    What I think in my opinion LGBTQ Community is a umbrella which covers people who want to express their inner side freely. We crossdressers need to express our feelings through our clothes.
    Well said!
    Escapism isn't necessarily bad, but is definitely unhealthy in the long term. While helpful in the short term, things will degrade over time. At some point, the escapee will have to face the issue. Things simply blowing over isn't really going to happen in many situations.

  4. #104
    Banned Read only Vicky_Scot's Avatar
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    The speaker should be banned from taking these seminars as they are clueless coming out with nonsense like that.

    We are indeed part of the trans community. X x x

  5. #105
    New Member Susan_onmydayoff's Avatar
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    Hi all,

    Heres my thoughts, I definitely think that the lecturer in the OP is wrong to say that CD-ing is a fetish or sexual thing?
    I see it all as a spectrum.

    Imagine if u can, a long line that starts deep, dark blue at one end and fades to a kinda lilac in the middle before turning shocking pink at the other end.
    At one end, in blue, we have the totally masculine, mans-man (the for real mans-man), for him its totally binary, I?m a man and I do man stuff and there is no question, about it and the idea of wearing anything female would be a total mystery. At the other end is the person who has known ever since (s)he was old enough to understand the difference between boys and girls, that something was different about them.

    For that person, there is a journey to understanding, acceptance and in some cases, action?

    So I think that all of us who dont do the totally binary thing are perhaps positioned somehwere along that line and I think that where we are on that line can alter? (Like when the pink fog hits?), some accept it indulge it and try to live and engage with it, some may reject it, purge and pretend it isnt there? Some may be troubled, guilty, ashamed of it and hope that with the love of a (new or) good woman that itll go away but most of us already know the outcome? Others may have a different view on it? Or for some, transition is the only outcome that fits for them? For others, maybe a different outcome but whatever that outcome may be, its always going to be somewhere along that blue/pink line?

    I sometimes think that many other factors can sometimes cloud the issue? Such as what would my SO/wife/friends/family think? What about work/career? What about loads of other stuff? And thats fine because only you know how your life works and what will work for you?

    When I started to look at it this way, it kinda helped me get a handle on it, if it helps someone else, jobs a good-un! 😉

    Just my thoughts?

    Im gonna go do something very manly in the garage now, I do hope I dont get oil on my pretty dress?

    Stay safe, have fun

    TTFN & Mwah!
    Susan xx

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maid_Marion View Post
    You may want to adopt the label to fight job discrimination based on the latest Supreme Court ruling.
    This statement is not so far fetched as one would think. I have not read the court ruling, i.e., in its entirety. The media has centered the discussion concerning the case around gays and lesbians and transgender men and women. If one is adopt the idea cross dressers go what they do for sexual pleasure there may be a tough fight ahead. Washington State law since 2006 includes cross dressers under the umbrella of transgender men and transgender women. I have not read any cases in Washington State where an issue of a cross dresser suffering discrimination has arisen. There had been issues of transgender women under employment actions, but usually from the general public. The cases that come to mind are usually male transitioning to female at the elementary school grades. In states where there has been no protection for gays and lesbians and transgender men and transgender women there may be disagreements as to the scope of the law if the notion is adopted cross dressers dress for sexual pleasure and are no among the transgender community.

  7. #107
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    Hi All
    i feel that the term LGBTQI has two parts, LGB dealing with sexuality and TQI addressing gender and self expression. The analogy I think of LGB is who you look at through the window while TQI is who you look at in the mirror. I am part of the LGBTQI community not because of my sexuality but because of the way I like to express the way I feel. But doing this calls into question ones sexuality which more often than not is not part of the discussion. As with those that have come out to their partners, typically one of the first questions is 'Are you gay?'. Much of the early struggle for acceptance was carried by the LGB community and they have laid the foundation for acceptance for LGB's. As time has moved on more of the "undesirables" have been attached to an already fringe group of "deviants".
    We are now LGBTQI+ , a community so varied that a single moniker can seem too small to comfortable cover everyone as some may still not want to be associated with others.
    Disclaimer. The use of some terms was not intended to offend but highlight the way the general populous viewed people who were not vanilla.

    Love and be Safe.
    Dianne

  8. #108
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    DianneM,
    I'm glad you added the disclaimer but I'm still very disappointed you should use such words , I can only speak from the TG perspective but it truth I've found those words really don't ring true in the RW , if that is the true feelings of people to the LGBTQ community then maybe I don't want to be part of it .

  9. #109
    Girl about Town Jodie_Lynn's Avatar
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    @Teresa, it isn't the mainstream view, and I was also a little put off by some of @DianneM's word choices.

    Disclaimer or not, leave the negative word baggage to the muggles.

    My 2 centavos, YMMV
    Before you can love another, you must first like yourself

    I Aim To Misbehave

    Labels belong on BOXES, not PEOPLE!

  10. #110
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    Hey Everyone,

    Thanks again for the thread discussion. Good and different perspectives added.

    To close the loop on the OP. I was able to get the speakers contact information and emailed them to let them know about the issue.

    They graciously heard the feedback and took full responsibility for the error....even admitted to not liking their own, outdated response at the time it was said. We?ve gained an ally.

  11. #111
    Aspiring Member josie_S's Avatar
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    that's great Michelle! good for you

  12. #112
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    Identity is much more than the clothes you wear. So, from the very narrow context of 'wearing clothes typically tailored for the opposite sex', my opinion is: Are crossdressers part of the LGBTQ community? No. Are there members in the LGBTQ community who crossdress? Yes.
    I love film, fitness, and fashion. Those are the keys to unlock my heart.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan_onmydayoff View Post
    I definitely think that the lecturer in the OP is wrong to say that CD-ing is a fetish or sexual thing?
    I see it all as a spectrum.

    [...]
    I thoroughly agreed with your post, Susan. Lots of good details in there too. And it's good to hear from Michelle that the lecturer in question has changed her mind.

    I only wanted to add that it's not even possible to draw a hard-and-fast line between "fetish dressers" and "non-fetish dressers." There's a mini-spectrum there too: a "spectrum within a spectrum," as it were. Quite a few people have reported starting off as "fetish dressers," but find later in life the fetish aspect becomes less important to them, though they continue dressing more for reasons of gender expression. Of course the reality might be that while the power of sexual urges is what prompted them to crossdress in the first place, the gender aspect was also there all the time, but would have remained inhibited, latent and unexplored without being kick-started by the fetish aspect. Anyway it's clear with some CDers that they're not just "fetish dressers" or just expressing part of their gender identity, but a mixture of both.

  14. #114
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    Short background, I am a mostly cisgender male and fully heterosexual. I like many am in a DADT marriage, effectively. I underdress when I can, and am working towards incorporating blouses designed for women into my wardrobe. I may wear more in private, but I don't want to pass nor do I want to adopt a feminine look or completely feminine style when out. I'm simply not interested in that.

    I have played out this internal debate many, many times with my therapist, including the question of whether this is "just" a fetish or if its more. Her comments to have been to the effect that labels only matter to the extent they matter to you.

    And to me, I have finally decided to identify as part of the LGBTQ spectrum. Why is that? Because I have worked hard in therapy to understand myself and my feelings about wearing women's clothing. I've come to the personal conclusion that when I do so, especially when I underdress, it speaks to a feminine component of my being that I would like to now embrace. I no longer want to fear or feel shame about the fact that I enjoy wearing bras, panties, and more, and that a significant portion of the happiness comes from feeling feminine and enjoying the "femme" feeling of being pretty, sexy, delicate, and more.

    Not everyone will feel that way. Nor do they need to. This is a personal decision. And as far as the expanding definition of the LGBTQ community goes, I would absolutely now consider myself a part of it as its breadth is now commonly understood to also encompass persons who do not strictly adhere to the gender "binary."

    Intellectually/academically speaking, there are several terms that can apply to individuals like me who "crossdress" and feel feminine when they do it - demimale, demifemale, gender expansive, gender non-conforming and more.

    I don't know that any of them fit me perfectly, and that's okay. What matters is that I am one of those people who not only wear apparel designed for women because it feels good and makes me feel sexy/beautiful when i do it, but because it speaks to a feminine portion of my personality and I choose to embrace that. With that embrace of crossing traditionally defined gender boundaries, I can legitimately and authentically define myself as part of the LGBTQ community.

    I also find it ironic that anyone in the LGBTQ community would be so judgmental and dismissive of a class of persons who might think that they might belong to the "community." In my mind it's an utter and inexcusable rejection of the message of inclusion, diversity, and tolerance that LGBTQ activists are known to fight for. And it's so strange to think that someone would have to try to justify why they belong in a community that historically considered itself to be oppressed, discriminated against, and subject to so much violence and hatred.

    Finally, regarding the recent Supreme Court decision, "crossdressing" is absolutely now a protected activity as a result of the holding. The majority said in effect "One cannot be fired or discriminated against because they do not behave in a way that is consistent with their sex." The holding builds upon an earlier decision that said it was sex-based discrimination to treat a woman differently/poorly in the work place because she "acted like a man" (she drank, cussed, was aggressive, smoked, etc. - in other words acted like a member of the old boys club).

    The Roberts court expanded that holding to say that any behavior that falls outside heterosexual gender norms, including homosexuality, identifying as a different gender, etc. is protected because the law prohibits discrimination based on your sex. So if you are man that wears women's clothing and your employer treats you differently in a negative way as a result, you have been unlawfully discriminated against.

    Yes I am a lawyer, and that's how I read the decision. In addition, I spoke to my employment law colleagues and friends and they all read the decision the same exact way. In my case, they told me that if I was treated poorly in any way at work because I wore a blouse, a dress, lingerie, etc. while on the job, it would be a slam dunk case of discrimination and the employer would be liable for damages.

    You still have to dress "appropriately" and in a way that's consistent with the office dress code, but that means you simply have to adhere to the dress code or portions thereof that relate to your specific gender expression. In other words you can wear a blouse if you are a man, but you have to follow the rules that are set forth as it relates to wearing a blouse (it has to cover your midsection, for instance). Or your skirt has to be whatever length is set forth in the office dress code, but no one can tell you not to wear said conforming skirt because you are otherwise a "man."

    It's a huge relief to know that, frankly. It helps embolden me to dress in a way that reflects the "true me" without undue fear of losing my job. Sure I may get looks if people can tell that I have on a bra or realize my buttons are on the "wrong" side of my shirt, but that's they can do. Anything more and they violate the law.

    And I will say I hope to volunteer to do more to help people in "our" community understand this new interpretation of the law and how it effects them. Do PM me if you have questions and I'll do my best to direct you to the right resources to allow you to live your best life without fear of unlawful employment discrimination.

  15. #115
    Princess Candice candykowal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meeshell View Post
    ....it seems to be the nature of any group to form around a common interest, and then proceed to internally start trying to define who has the ?biggest dog in the fight? and establish a hierarchy of who most deserves the group?s attention. For instance, how many times have you seen the sentiment expressed, on this forum, along the lines of: Your issue is contemptible. If only you were (insert personal situation here) like me, you wouldn?t have this issue?
    Do I consider myself LGBTQ? Never really thought much about it. Do I consider myself ?trans?? Well? I don?t feel I would define myself as transgender, nor have I, or do I want to transition, but, I would have to say I am undeniably a transvestite at times.

    Although I take umbrage with someone trying to define me by their own experience and observations, I really don?t care what you call me or think I am. I?ll just worry about what I think I am if that?s ok. If you don?t feel I?m a part of your group, then, fine, but, I have to agree with Sarah. Excluding a group of people, who may have a modicum of understanding, and maybe even more sympathy for LGBTQ concerns and challenges, by ostracizing them in a presentation aimed at encouraging tolerance, seems ridiculous and detrimental to the message.

    LGBTQ? Trans? Odd? You decide. I would just like to be pretty once in a while.

    Hugs
    Meeshell
    Well said...Meeshell. I feel the same way! I agree!

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by vanphair View Post
    You still have to dress "appropriately" and in a way that's consistent with the office dress code, but that means you simply have to adhere to the dress code or portions thereof that relate to your specific gender expression. In other words you can wear a blouse if you are a man, but you have to follow the rules that are set forth as it relates to wearing a blouse (it has to cover your midsection, for instance). Or your skirt has to be whatever length is set forth in the office dress code, but no one can tell you not to wear said conforming skirt because you are otherwise a "man."
    Your state may be different, but from what I understand it has been this way for a long time as far as dress codes unless the company provides a uniform.

    That is why dress codes have to be non gender specific to begin with. For instance my company's dress code basically says Monday through Thursday, Business casual: Then offer a few acceptable suggestions like slacks, button down shirts, dresses and skirts knee length or longer, and a few things that are forbidden like t-shirts and jeans.

    It doesn't say men wear slacks and button down shirts or women wear dresses and skirts knee length or longer.
    Last edited by Robertacd; 06-25-2020 at 10:24 PM.

  17. #117
    Gold Member Alice Torn's Avatar
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    Ressie, You hit it. We are all unique individuals with unique finger prints. I am sick of group think. It stinks, and we are like you say, some of us are just not sure what the heck we are, and we are always evolving and changing with age. Group think is a control thing too. I refuse to be put into a box/

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  18. #118
    Platinum Blonde member Ressie's Avatar
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    Alice, well put and I agree with you.
    "You're the only one to see the changes you take yourself through", Stevie Wonder

  19. #119
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    Last time I checked, there wasn?t a formal application, exam, or certification. So yes if you think so and no if you don?t.

  20. #120
    Aspiring Member Kimberly A.'s Avatar
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    After reading a lot of replies to this, plus the original post, my whole thing is this..... If you just simply choose to be only a M to F crossdresser, but you're a straight guy, then who says you HAD to identify with LGBTQ+ If you choose not to identify as such, then simply don't and I think it's as simple as that. I mean, I don't identify with LGBQ+ because I'm a straight guy and I just choose not to.
    I may be crazy, but I'm BURIED in your memory!

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  22. #122
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    Wow, I didn't even know there was a question about this.

    In my community cd's are part of the LGBT community. The only place I see any issue is with the male gay community.

    I know Gay men who are ok with you dressing if you are there to be picked up. Or if you use it as a fetish, but can come down negatively if you are just dressing to dress and are straight.

    On the other hand I hang out with Lesbians and they include us, no matter our orientation.

    I have seen, now that I think of it, some resistance from a few radical sisters.

    Shrugs....I really never thought we were not part of the community till now.

  23. #123
    Gold Member Alice Torn's Avatar
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    Paula, Yes we are are unique individuals with our quirks, and we are always evolving, and very complex beings. i do not being put into a box. I am a bit or very odd and crazy for sure!
    IT TAKES A REAL DRESS TO WEAR A MAN.

  24. #124
    New Member Sally Paradise's Avatar
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    I never really thought about this either, I tend to avoid labels in general though. I?m okay with ?crossdresser? because I crossdress, but I don?t feel it defines me any more than most adjectives do. I?m just me.

  25. #125
    New "old" girl Suzie Petersen's Avatar
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    Vanphair (snip of a longer post): I also find it ironic that anyone in the LGBTQ community would be so judgmental and dismissive of a class of persons who might think that they might belong to the "community." In my mind it's an utter and inexcusable rejection of the message of inclusion, diversity, and tolerance that LGBTQ activists are known to fight for. And it's so strange to think that someone would have to try to justify why they belong in a community that historically considered itself to be oppressed, discriminated against, and subject to so much violence and hatred.

    Finally, regarding the recent Supreme Court decision, "crossdressing" is absolutely now a protected activity as a result of the holding. The majority said in effect "One cannot be fired or discriminated against because they do not behave in a way that is consistent with their sex." The holding builds upon an earlier decision that said it was sex-based discrimination to treat a woman differently/poorly in the work place because she "acted like a man" (she drank, cussed, was aggressive, smoked, etc. - in other words acted like a member of the old boys club).

    The Roberts court expanded that holding to say that any behavior that falls outside heterosexual gender norms, including homosexuality, identifying as a different gender, etc. is protected because the law prohibits discrimination based on your sex. So if you are man that wears women's clothing and your employer treats you differently in a negative way as a result, you have been unlawfully discriminated against.

    Yes I am a lawyer, and that's how I read the decision. In addition, I spoke to my employment law colleagues and friends and they all read the decision the same exact way. In my case, they told me that if I was treated poorly in any way at work because I wore a blouse, a dress, lingerie, etc. while on the job, it would be a slam dunk case of discrimination and the employer would be liable for damages.

    You still have to dress "appropriately" and in a way that's consistent with the office dress code, but that means you simply have to adhere to the dress code or portions thereof that relate to your specific gender expression. In other words you can wear a blouse if you are a man, but you have to follow the rules that are set forth as it relates to wearing a blouse (it has to cover your midsection, for instance). Or your skirt has to be whatever length is set forth in the office dress code, but no one can tell you not to wear said conforming skirt because you are otherwise a "man."

    It's a huge relief to know that, frankly. It helps embolden me to dress in a way that reflects the "true me" without undue fear of losing my job. Sure I may get looks if people can tell that I have on a bra or realize my buttons are on the "wrong" side of my shirt, but that's they can do. Anything more and they violate the law.
    First, I agree with your regarding the irony of what you describe there!
    Second, Thank you for sharing your professional and informed opinion regarding the recent ruling.
    - Suzie

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