Shocked,Angry but mostly Saddened.

[Vicky_Scot]

Had my family over for a fathers day/birthday barbacue yesterday (social distancing obviously) and do not know how or why the conversation took on a discussion about transexuals people and crossdressers.

I always thought i had brought my kids up to be open minded and accepting adults but I was shocked when the conversation turned very transphobic with words like weirdos,freaks etc being banded about and comments like what ever they are, made me feel uncomfortable, annoyed but mostly sad that my kids thought this way.

A couple of other family members outwith my direct family were even more disrespectful saying they should be locked up, they look more manly than me etc. Have you seen the tranny that works in this shop was another topic for laughter and ridicule. I sat and just took it in thinking wow and then eventually asked, what if your kid came to you and said they were trans or crossdressed would you disown them? The response was of course not and I replied your all bloody hypocrites then as you have all just sat here taking the piss out of them.

I have been toying with the idea of coming out to family members for a while but after what I heard yesterday I think that will not be happening.

X x x

[Patience]

...and that's why coming out to family is a bad idea.

Happy father's day.

[Jodie_Lynn]

...and that's why coming out to family is a bad idea.

Happy father's day.

Wow, really? That's your take away from this?

I feel sorry for Vicky_Scot, she found out her family's true feelings, and now, I'm sure, has second, third, and fourth thoughts about coming out.

Until March of this year, I worked at a place that was very gay & trans- phobic. I had to bite my tongue, severely, as I listened to people express their opinions on the gay, and especially, trans community. As a temp worker, it made me sick to my stomach, as I felt I could not offer any counter to the hate.

[NancySue]

Sorry to read your story. Depending on where you live, I think it?s a bad idea to come out at all. We live in a smaller town. Discovery would be a disaster. After golf, our foursome had our usual beer and brats. We got to talking about hunting in cold weather. One of the guys admitted he wore pantyhose to keep warm. He?s still trying to live his revelation down. I said nothing, but if they only knew....not good.

[bobbi1957]

its strange but i had a bbq for bday sat and same thing happened except it was best freinds that said they are weird and wanted to know if id be ok with kids being trans i said yes and they thought it was wrong ... my wife who knows i dress was in the kitchen and maybe heard never said a thing ...i guess ill never come out to my friends

[BrendaPDX]

Hi Vicky, I am sorry to hear that about your kids, guess we know why tigers eat their young. The nice thing is we all have the opportunity to grow, maybe they will come around. Thanks for sharing.

[JenniferWhenCD]

Hi Vickie,

I concur with Micki-Finn and Crissy, thank you for speaking out. Silence is Consent, not matter the topic.

[donnalee]

One reason I'm so much in favor of freedom of speech is that people like that out themselves as bigots which allows you to know who your friends really are and lets you take the necessary precautions.

[Jodie_Lynn]

One reason I'm so much in favor of freedom of speech is that people like that out themselves as bigots which allows you to know who your friends really are and lets you take the necessary precautions.

I totally agree with this!

I would rather know who my enemies are, up front, than try to figure out who is hiding behind the mask of political correctness!

At a PRIDE event last year, I was advised against going to a certain establishment, because it wad ONLY during PTIDE month, that they actually welcomed LGBTQ+ people. At all other times, they were either indifferent, or openly hostile to "our kind". It was just a ruse to get LGBTQ+ dollars in their coffers.

[Teresa]

Vicky,
The only way we can stop this happening is by coming out , OK I appreciate you put yourself in the firing line . I have no regrets about everyone knowing , it usually stops all these transphobia comments . I TOTALLY agree they can appear hypocrites until they know the truth , I've found then people have come out to me and also people have told me about work colleagues or friends who are TG . I'm lucky , my daughter totally accepts me and she invited me for Sunday lunch to celebrate Father's Day .

All this depends on if you are still in the closet or out in the RW , personally I've not had a single transphobic comment from anyone apart from my wife .

[Fran Moore]

I can totally relate to this Vicky, and yes the word for it is "sad"........

[GretchenM]

We get this impression that we have, as a society, made progress and then something like this happens. So glad you confronted their opinions. That is really what is needed. Exposure to "weirdos" like us help them see we aren't so weird afterall, but being called out for showing prejudice and hateful or at least hurtful comments is what is needed.

It happened to me with a sister-in-law and her daughter-in-law. What was it about? A messenger bag that looks faintly like a purse that carry my stuff in. "Bad influence on the kids." B.S. It really hurts when someone does that, especially when they put on that they are so accepting of others. They are, provided the others meet their standards for behavior. I confronted them and their tales of all the terrible things that could happen to me if I deviate from the narrow definition of what a male should look like. Goodness! Open discrimination and they don't even recognize it. Of course that might happen in the city they live in as it is really conservative. But here in Denver people are different than there. Those kinds of things like that don't happen very often. In another sense, their pressure is an attempt to force their standards on you by shame and pressure. Sorry. It just damages the relationship. Who wants to be friendly with family members that think of you that way and let you know that carrying a bag that looks a bit like a purse is not acceptable.

[kimdl93]

I commend you on putting this back on them. Perhaps those present will think about the intolerance and heartlessness of their comments. That would likely not have happened if you had remained silent.

[Dutchess]

Hi Vicky ,
I was passing by on my way to the FAB forum and I guess its rather timely .
I just wanted to implore you to please be careful and mindful of your own safety , I know you are but still . In a perfect world yes, everyone should be more tolerant or accepting but most o us live in world that is far from that . Where I originally came from in Texas , being this way could cost you your life and no amount of coming out will change this so I am very sensitive to keeping loved ones safe .
My wild wayward ex husband I guess has not checked in with his family in the Netherlands for some time , as my rude bigoted ex dutch FIL messaged me on FB Saturday, my time, ahead of fathers day asking if Id heard from him . I said no actually not in a few years. He said that If I did will I please tell him to either message , call or come home ( to the Netherlands ) and be a grandfather . I said I would and he THEN said that I needed to make sure he knew not to come home "looking like that " or else he would get a "real beating " . I got the idea that I dont think he cares whether he ever comes back to Holland but his instead wanted to make sure he conveyed that nasty opinion on alt lifestyles .
Then an old MC friend of his in Finland that gets scary hostile about it .

So yeah , as much support as you get here , the real world is not so much and it is not worth your life to prove otherwise .

[Helen_Highwater]

Vicky,

I would urge caution in assuming that your kids were totally onboard with what was being said. Social pressure to conform is a powerful force and it's a brave soul to go against the tribe. If the conversation is lead by a strong personality often sheep will follow.

I would suggest you talk to your kids when there's just them and you. Tell them of your surprise to their responses and ask them what makes them feel that way if the even actually do. Let them know you thought they had been brought up to be better than that and that you were disappointed to hear them respond in such a manner. It's never too late to give guidance to children.

Make your case for tolerance, ask them to explain why they responded as they did, the reasoning behind it. I find often it's just herd mentality that's at the root of such things and no real thought has gone into why someone holds any given position. Once you ask for reasons and non are forthcoming then the argument is yours.

[Davina Katherine]

I'm not speaking for or against coming out to anyone.

But it saddens my heart every time I read another example of the fearfulness we are forced to live under.

[Stephanie47]

Sorry you had a bad Father's Day. I have told more than one friend/acquaintance people will speak their minds when they are alone with people with whom they think are of the same beliefs as their own. A neighbor told me recently she noticed I tend to just sit back and let people hang themselves. They assume, if you say nothing, you are one of them. My brother reminded me of our grandmother's sound advice. "A spoken word cannot be unsaid!" Many people, when in public, will be politically correct. In private? Well, you experienced it.

I have always taken the position my cross dressing is a private affair because that is my comfort zone. However, I am vocal when coming to the defense of any person's rights to be who they are. It was nice to see our United States Supreme Court affirm the rights of gays and lesbians and transgender men and women.

I would suggest discussing their behavior and confronting their discriminatory beliefs. You do not have to "out" yourself. If you do, then you're only going to get "politically correct" responses.

[char GG]

And this:
by Marianne S

The only remedy for this is more education--though I'm afraid "education" only works on those willing to be taught!

It's just my personal opinion, but I feel the trans/CD community is largely an unknown - and perhaps people fear the unknown.

I'm sorry for the reaction on your Father's Day celebration. Maybe someday the participants of the conversation will be sorry for the words they used.

EDIT: It might be that in the past, CDing was done in secret so it was largely unknown to the general population.

[Angela Marie]

It is such a tough call; and whether to do it or not depends on each individuals situation. I know that I could never come out. My wife (2nd time around) knows and is tolerant but she would definitely want other to know. My children would not take it well. We all have to balance our choices carefully. Mine is to not reveal myself.

[FairyCrossdresser]

I?m sorry that happened, Vicky. It never fails to amaze me how conservative people?s views are when it comes to a man?s role, what he should and shouldn?t like (and wear for that matter).

In the last one hundred years the acceptance of what women can do and how women should dress has changed beyond recognition and yet the same public perceptions of genetic males seem not to have moved on at all.

Ultimately, a father is defined by the role they played in the birth of a child, not whether they were skirts or trousers at weekends. I?ve always been very insistent that I am a person, not a gender.

Hope things work out for you.

[Jean 103]

Pretty much typical, prejudice, closed minded, people.

Basically this is a lot of what is wrong with the world in general. Passing judgement with little or no information. Wanting everyone to be the same as they are, fearing anything that is different.

I guess you did want you could.

You may be able to change their minds, but without coming out I don't think it will happen. Even then there is no guarantee.

I have changed and/or influenced many people. I have done this by simply being out, being myself, and letting them get to know me. Some are easier than others, still it takes time.


Here is the problem, (guessing) most people likely know and/or have met someone from our community but don't know it, because most are in the closet, or stay in the shadows.

Family have addition complications to overcome, as a member of this or any group there are expectations. It's been seen here many times.

[Krea]

Vicky, it's very sad that this sort of attitude still exists, but you did the best thing by challenging their remarks and putting them right. Good for you!

[Shelly Preston]

You just never know how people will react until confronted with any given situation.

They said they would not disown their kids, but I would not bet on that either. (however you will know them better than anyone here)

I agree it is sad. Sometimes it can be how the subject is raised, can lead to a herd mentality.

There is a world of difference between

"have you seen the tranny that works in the local shop" and "I see someone in the local shop is brave enough to be themselves"

I have had similar conversations at work. I mostly reply by saying, you may not like it but what did they do to you.

Coming out is a purely personal decision. It is worth remembering the old phrase. You can choose your friends not your family.

[docrobbysherry]

Vicky, u don't mention the ages of your kids. Maybe they'll mature with age?

Even if they're in their 20's, they've got a long way to go!

[GretchenM]

Love your comments, Marianne. You have gone very deep in your discussion and I admire that. Very thought provoking for sure.

On the Nature vs. Nurture aspect, it seems that those who intensively study this behavior pattern have seem to have settled on the "it's both working together" explanation. Your genetics sets a generalized basic heritable environment that is sort of like a predisposition that may or may not be triggered. Sort of like handedness which is a predisposition. If you have two hands the genetic predisposition is triggered, but if you are unfortunately born with only one hand and that is not the one that fits the predisposition, the predisposition is never triggered into activity. But as is true of almost all predispositions, they only come with an "On" button and once that button has been pushed there is no way to turn it off. So environmental influences creates this shift in gender identity and association and where it goes from there depends on the particular impact on each person's sense of self. The vague genetic boundaries are still working in the background, but they are effectively flexible. A predisposition may change and evolve, but it doesn't go away.

In the gender mosaic theory it creates a mosaic of male-like, female-like, and intermediate configurations in the person's neural networks that regulate the sense of self to be a blend of male and female traits and characteristics that changes over time as a result of new learning and experiences. Those changes occur due to brain plasticity which is the unique ability of the brain to rewire itself to adapt to new experiences and learning that modifies the sense of self so they are always as consistent as possible. Unfortunately, if you are consciously locked into a particular concept that you believe is not changeable that is the standard by which everything is judged. "You can't be feminine because you are male. Period. Men don't carry bags so be a good boy and lose the bag so people will view you as you really are." Or my wife who says, "Why can't you just be yourself?" To which I answer, "What if this is myself and I am being myself? Look around. We are all different. So, by your argument everybody is not being themselves. It can't be both ways. And that is exactly what neuroscience has found - we are all different and sometimes REALLY different. And it is OK and normal."

Unfortunately, most people cling to the concept of the gender binary where gender is defined by your sex and is not supposed to change or deviate from that which existed at the beginning. So, someone who shows some degree of cross-gender behavior must be defective because their sex has not changed and everybody's sex determines the destiny of your gender. Result? An Us vs. Them mind set that is natural when a person encounters something different and does not recognize as being normal because of the person's own sense of self and thoughts about everybody else's sense of self and what it should be according to the rigid standard. In my discussion with my sister-in-law she kept pointing out the terrible things that could happen to someone who deviates from the tried and true sex=gender static thinking. I pointed out that there is an easy solution to that. Don't go to places where those kinds of things can happen because of the intolerance of the people that are there. Don't go into a Hell's Angels biker bar cross-dressed. I pointed out that women apply that selective rule all the time - there are places where they will not go, especially alone. Just apply the same sensibility. Notice that the thought that cross-dressed person is assumed to still be of the masculine gender because you can't change that and so even expressing feminine the person will do the same things they would do if purely male/masculine and not cross-dressed. My sister-in-law's view was that I am male and that is all there is to it and the clothes don't change that. The fact is, your sense of self is not immutable. Even hers. Thinking that is clinging to traditional concepts of gender that go back thousands of years and is a matter of destiny. Unfortunately, the world is not a static place - it changes and we have to change with it or perhaps we will die.

This same kind of thinking was probably engaged in during Vicki's experience - no recognition that the gender concept that has existed for so long just might be wrong in some respects. The possibility that variability might be built into us because it provides a means to adapt to changes in perspective as a result of changes in environment. That is a good survival tool for us to have because the world is not the same everywhere. Diversity aids in the survival of the species. And in the case of humans, our survival does not exist in our superior strength like a lion or a tiger, but in our superior intelligence and our adaptability to new situations. I have found that people who expect everything to be simple and direct also often have trouble adapting to new situations. Not always, but more than I would expect. That is why they tend to cling to the traditional - it is safe. They face the unknown (variable gender in this case) by trying to force it to follow the traditional concept even though naturally gender can't do that because it is so individualized, even in them.