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Thread: Crossdressing for everyone .

  1. #26
    Junior Member Sandra_Dodds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brianne_M View Post
    I wish skirts were more accepted. I love wearing mine. Skorts are more practical for me, but either way i feel more "free" wearing a skirt. Nice to see some places being more open like that.
    Same here Brianne. No one cares if a woman wears a man’s shirt and tie to the office or borrows one of his sweaters but I know that if I turned up in a skirt, tights and heels there would be so much less tolerance and understanding. If I could I’d swap all my trousers for skirts, with the possible exception of a pair of jeans.
    Last edited by Sandra_Dodds; 07-29-2020 at 06:21 AM.
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  2. #27
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    One of my favorite jeans had the zipper open on the left side. I wore them a lot and not once did anyone notice. I now have a lot of upscale jeans and all have the sipper open to the right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leslie Langford View Post
    I always get a chuckle when I see gender-specific articles of clothing advertised (or see similarly-phrased signage in stores) indicating "womens bras", "womens lingerie", "women's dresses", and "women's hosiery" etc. Is this redundancy really necessary...?
    It does seem amusing, Leslie. But I'd guess the distinction is between women's dresses (etc.) and girls' dresses, girls' bras ("training" bras) and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by GretchenM View Post
    I have no idea why women's shirts and blouses still button on the reverse side from men's (or you can turn that around if you wish). The original reason why they buttoned that way was because in the distant past women who were a little better off were dressed by other women and so the buttons operate in a "normal" way for the dresser.
    Think "QWERTY," Gretchen! The QWERTY keyboard wasn't logically "designed" that way from the ground up. It just kind of "evolved," with characters being swapped around, often arbitrarily, to lessen the chance of keys jamming on early typewriters. It's not the most efficient arrangement. The Dvorak keyboard is reputedly better. But the Dvorak never caught on in a big way because everyone was already used to the QWERTY, and the improvements weren't great enough to justify the trouble of "unlearning" one method and learning a new one.

    I'd guess it's the same with those buttons. Regardless of the original reasons for the difference, men are now used to buttoning their clothes one way, and women the opposite way. There's simply no motive for either to change.

    I often notice which side a shirt or blouse buttons on, in advertising photos for instance. If it buttons on the "wrong" side, I can be pretty sure the photo has been laterally inverted to fit with the text or some other feature. Same thing with a watch on the right wrist. Yes, the person could be a southpaw, but only ten percent of people are.

    Quote Originally Posted by lingerieLiz View Post
    One of my favorite jeans had the zipper open on the left side. I wore them a lot and not once did anyone notice.
    I'll bet they'd notice if the zipper was in the back! That's sexy too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teresa View Post
    As for the differences between the genders and what they wear , I personally hope we never have equality , in male mode a guy can look very good in a dinner suite accompanied by a stunningly dressed lady , that's what makes them look and feel special , going from from one to the other has been a wonderful experience , why spoil it ?
    I'm in sympathy with this, Teresa. For one thing I have no problem with being male, and as a man I have enjoyed dressing to look smart, including "black tie" and cummerbund on certain special occasions. Just as important, for me the main point of crossdressing is to wear women's clothes! If they were all the same as men's, that would take all the enjoyment out of crossdressing. There wouldn't even be such a thing as "cross"-dressing any more! As for terminology, "gender equality" is a worthy goal in terms of allowing men and women, as individuals, equal opportunity to make their own choices. But may heaven preserve us from "gender sameness!" Fortunately men and women, left in freedom to be themselves, do tend collectively to make different choices, in clothing as in other matters. And I say "Vive la difference!"
    Last edited by Marianne S; 08-03-2020 at 03:59 AM.

  4. #29
    Member Miel GG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teresa View Post

    As for the differences between the genders and what they wear , I personally hope we never have equality , in male mode a guy can look very good in a dinner suite accompanied by a stunningly dressed lady , that's what makes them look and feel special , going from from one to the other has been a wonderful experience , why spoil it ?
    Teresa,
    I can understand that you think like this, but I have a hard time with your comment as a woman. If you were born in the other team (women), surely you would have endured a life of gender-based discrimination and clothes are in a way the tip of the iceberg. Think of all the battles the women had to fight (and it isn't finished yet) to gain the right to wear clothes that were not designed only for men's pleasure (e.g. nurses didn't get the right to wear trousers or tenniswomen to wear shorts, etc, etc ...). I know some CDers tend to regret these good old times where women "were women" (dress, heels, make-up, ...). May I stress that in these same times, men had to "be men" as well ? No men in dresses allowed back then ... So maybe they weren't so good times for those who wanted some liberty and were under strong societal constraint because of their sex/gender ? Because women, gays and other minorities have fought against sex/gender constraints, YOU can benefit of a more accepting society today (even if everything remains difficult, or even dangerous, for TG persons). So if you want to increase mainstream acceptance and in particular GG's acceptance, you need to pivot your way of thinking and become more NB friendly.

    As I am sure you love the fashion capital, Paris, I will tell you this little story about the women who lived there ... The Prefect of Paris, who, like many of his fellow male contemporaries, didn't want women to displace men in male carreers, ruled that the Parisian women should not transvestite. In other words, it was forbidden for a woman to wear a trousers when a trousers is required to do the work (the only exception being if the women had a medical condition). So the Parisian ladies had no other choice than wearing skirts or dresses. This rule dated back to 1800 and was only withdrawn in ...2012 ! Fortunately the women in Paris haven't waited so long and massively wore trousers since the 60's.
    Last edited by Miel GG; 08-03-2020 at 04:32 PM.

  5. #30
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    Miel,
    A TG person also endures gender discrimination because they are fighting the internal battle of dysphoria and the external battle of dealing with it in the RW . I'm now 69 and most of my life has been lived with the expectations of how a man should dress and act , to me it was a male straightjacket . We suffer as a minority because so many of us are frightened to reveal the truth . I don't understand your comment about being more NB friendly although it doesn't work for me I accept it does for other people even if I don't totally understand it .

    In the last two years I've found mainstream acceptance comes from just going out in the RW and doing it , the thoughts of danger , difficulties and persecution are mostly in the mind .

    I don't totally agree with men dictating how nurses etc. were forced to wear dresses , some nurses I know lament the days when they wore a uniform they could be proud of , some really did prefer and enjoyed wearing them , one commented to me that she was a nurse not a mechanic !
    Last edited by Teresa; 08-04-2020 at 05:43 AM.

  6. #31
    Senior Member jennifer easton's Avatar
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    In this day and age real men can rock pink!! I also have a pink tank top and wear it out to the beach, even tho it started out as orange over time it faded into pink some how not sure how but it dosen't mater I wear it with pride!! xoxox Jen
    xoxoxoJennifer Easton
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  7. #32
    The 100th sheep GaleWarning's Avatar
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    Did you know that the South African rugby team, the Blue Bulls, had a team kit which featured a pink jersey?
    Their fans took awhile to get used to it, but they did.

  8. #33
    Member Miel GG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teresa View Post
    Miel,
    A TG person also endures gender discrimination because they are fighting the internal battle of dysphoria and the external battle of dealing with it in the RW . I'm now 69 and most of my life has been lived with the expectations of how a man should dress and act , to me it was a male straightjacket . We suffer as a minority because so many of us are frightened to reveal the truth . I don't understand your comment about being more NB friendly although it doesn't work for me I accept it does for other people even if I don't totally understand it .

    In the last two years I've found mainstream acceptance comes from just going out in the RW and doing it , the thoughts of danger , difficulties and persecution are mostly in the mind .

    I don't totally agree with men dictating how nurses etc. were forced to wear dresses , some nurses I know lament the days when they wore a uniform they could be proud of , some really did prefer and enjoyed wearing them , one commented to me that she was a nurse not a mechanic !
    You miss my point Teresa.

    1. You cannot compare the level of structural discrimination against 50% of the population (women) from birth to death in every life's domain and the level of discrimination endured by the small part of the population which is TG. Anything that you as a boy/man take for granted wasn't given to a girl/woman, only because of her sex/gender. Women have to fight tooth and nails for their rights, while you can enjoy them by simply being born a male. You have these privileges as a male.

    2. A MtF CD benefits from these privileges throughout his life, because he can present as male when he wants. It is a huge difference to have the opportunity to be part of the dominants (men) everytime you need to. Do you see the difference with GG's ?

    3. I know that young people are more aware of the concept of gender. Anyhow this concept is useful to highlight the discrimination due to the ideology of binarity (2 separate sexes, which leads to opposing men and women and hierarchizing masculine above feminine).
    A consequence of this ideology is the fact that clothes have to be different for boys/men and girls/women. Women have fought within the binary system to gain the right to wear trousers for example. A step further is to call into question the binary system itself and promote gender neutral clothes. In this case being NB friendly means supporting this evolution in a more inclusive fashion : more equality and liberty for both men and women, for all kind of bodies, ages, ethnic groups, ...
    Therefore, overvalueing stereotypical women outfits leads to maintaining the male power over girls/women. Fluid or delicate materials (silk, lace, ...) are associated to femininity because of the supposed fragility and sensibility of women for example. Yuk. We have to tear down these stereotypes for the benefit of all of us.

    4. About your comment on nurses lamenting about late uniforms (skirts ?)... You can also find ladies (seniors) saying that being cat called is a good thing, etc. My statements aren't about your life or mine but about the overall life experience of women (research results and statistics supports my comments).

  9. #34
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    I would be almost certain that the statement wasn?t designed to be interpreted the way you?ve read it (although in being non-specific, there may I suppose have been PC implications there).

    From an idealistic standpoint I am not a huge proponent of gender role and norm distinctions as while it has never been a major barrier for me (my own history being rather unusual anyway) I can imagine there are many likeminded individuals who feel constrained by what they feel to be social limitations and I?m not convinced that the evolution that made such distinctions necessary at one time can be said to be so relevant now.

    That said, if distinctions in gender norms were to be removed in their entirety, I imagine it would affect the relationship that most have with their dressing habit / compulsion.

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    Miel,
    I've checked your profile page to find your home country , as there isn't one I'm going to assume you live in the US . From reading comments and threads from other members there is more of a difference between the various countries than I expected , issues in the US don't often figure in the UK . Saying that everyone is differnt anyway , as a GG you obviously don't like the female sterotype whereas others still totally embrace it .

    On a personal level my sister was the apple of my father's eye when she was a child so she got most of the attention and I received most of the abuse , she could wear anything she chose and I had to be the rough , tough little boy whether I liked it or not .

    My children received equal support , one was never favoured over the other , a boy and girl bring different aspects into family life both which proved enjoyable , both also received equal support through university and after the same support when buying and setting up homes when they married .

    My son is now a qualifed structural engineer and my daughter a qualified nurse and speech and language therapist , both chose those subjects of their own free will .
    Last edited by Teresa; 08-05-2020 at 06:23 AM.

  11. #36
    Aspiring Member jacques's Avatar
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    hello Teresa,
    is crossdressing going full circle? Are men now wearing copies of women's clothes that were copied from men's clothes?
    stay healthy,
    luv J

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    Jacques,
    Returning to the point of my thread maybe Cotton Traders are trying to cover all the angles , so you could be making a good point .

    I haven't seen padded shoulder pads for a while but I recently bought a neat fitting denim jacket with shoulder pads in . The SA said she had the same jacket and cut the pads out straight away , I have fairly square male shoulder so I didn't need them , the jacket is a better fit now .

  13. #38
    Member Miel GG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teresa View Post
    Miel, I've checked your profile page to find your home country , as there isn't one I'm going to assume you live in the US .
    Teresa,

    I was stunned by your statement 'As for the differences between the genders and what they wear, I personally hope we never have equality', and simply wanted to emphasize the consequences of such a way of thinking for GGs in the RW.

    BTW I live on the other side of the Channel (France).




    Quote Originally Posted by FairyCrossdresser View Post
    That said, if distinctions in gender norms were to be removed in their entirety, I imagine it would affect the relationship that most have with their dressing habit / compulsion.
    FairyCrossdresser,

    I understand that for many the very essence of CDing is based on the existence of two separate genders, including strong markers of sexual belonging (dresses, make up, ...). One can assume that CDing can vanish if the binary system is abandonned.

    The problem is that the binary system induces a lot of pain for CDs, Trans people and GGs. It is a rough thinking but from my POV it is difficult to accept that CDs might not be GG's allies in their fight against gender stereotypes and gender based discrimination just because they are found of "feminine" stuff.

    We can all benefit of the suppression of outdated views of femininity and masculinity.

    But I wonder what CDs will prefer :
    - continue to live in the actual world, suffer of the societal shame but have the opportunity to wear clothes labelled as feminine,
    or
    - be free to go out presenting as they want but in a new world where feminine and masculine were considered lapsed ?

    Last edited by Miel GG; 08-05-2020 at 05:00 PM.

  14. #39
    Sunshine Gal AngelaYVR's Avatar
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    This is a strange thread. I can never imagine speaking on behalf of billions of people and to treat them as an amorphous mass of unified minds. We have trouble reaching consensus just among members here!

    As for the choice Miel presents, that is pretty easy for me as I feel no shame! Although virtually every person who tries to shame me is a woman; I presume they are protecting their feminine realm from interlopers.

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    Miel,
    My point was women have a far greater choice of clothes to wear whereas men don't , I personally wouldn't want to see equality in those choices , for a woman that is surely something to be proud of , not ashamed of , no way was I talking about gender equality .

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    Lots of people on this site wander off the original topic. The points made by Miel are perfectly valid. Compared with the issues still faced by women, being unable (or to be more accurate feeling unable) to wear dresses or lingerie is pretty insignificant. CDs do not have to found a #metoo movement or get paid less for doing the same work as someone else. In 2020, women still get a raw deal from some parts of society in a way that men do not. if you feel things should be changed the answer is simple. Wear your dress with pride out with your friends or at work. It might not go down so well in the so-called Land of the Free but here in the UK the only thing stopping you wearing what you want is you. If enough people do it, it will become normal. I like women's clothes but I would not wish to be a woman getting patronised and leered at by men, and occasionally attacked sexually in a way that very rarely happens to men. The only way I could imagine being a woman is as a lesbian - I would hate to be attracted to men. Please do not interpret that as a criticism of gay men - I am talking about myself, no one else at this point. We get only a few GGs on this site and many of us wish to keep them here and they are more likely to stay if they are treated with respect.

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    It doesn't look as if Parisian women took much notice of that ancient edict against wearing trousers--presuming bloomers count as a kind of "trouser."

    The Gladiator Cycle Company was based just outside Paris. They also made automobiles. This poster by Gaston Noury must be about a century old, possibly more.

    Last edited by Marianne S; 08-06-2020 at 03:05 PM.

  18. #43
    Member Miel GG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marianne S View Post
    It doesn't look as if Parisian women took much notice of that ancient edict against wearing trousers--presuming bloomers count as a kind of "trouser."
    Marianne,

    You may be interested to know that in 1892 and 1909, local regulations specified that women were allowed to wear trousers for biking (bicycle) and riding (horse).

    The Noury's advertising was probably created in 1902.

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    Thank you for the date, Miel. I suspected it was around the turn of the century, before the Great War anyway (which my father fought in), but I couldn't be sure about the fashion. That cute little hat for instance: so very chic and modern looking for the time; I wasn't sure if it was more 1920s.

    I do wonder though whether any women actually were arrested, prosecuted or fined for wearing trousers in Paris. I read somewhere that under this statute, women could still wear trousers if they obtained permission from local police. Somehow I can't imagine a gallant Parisian flic refusing permission to a jolie Mademoiselle or Madame to wear whatever she liked!

    I wouldn't have guessed you were French. Your English is virtually flawless, and I didn't attach any significance to "Miel" (Honey). It's the same word in Spanish anyway.

    I'm sorry you feel so negative about life as a woman. A number of women have been taught to feel the same way today. Maybe you've had an unlucky life? Some people do, men and women both. My mother was always so happy to be a woman. She told me "I'd hate to be a man. Look at the awful things men have to do!" As I've mentioned in another post, my father fought in that war alongside your countrymen to help drive the invaders out of your homeland. He was gassed, temporarily blinded, and came out of it with shrapnel in his leg. Luckily he made a full recovery and went on to live a healthy life. Many men were not so lucky, and ended up crippled or dead. I realize of course that most men in these better days are not called upon to fight wars (unless they volunteer), though many have been in the past. But men still do most of the dirty, hard, and dangerous jobs. I just think there's far too much propaganda around encouraging everyone to think "women are hard done by," and whipping up needless resentment and conflict. It doesn't make anyone happier. Nobody's life is perfect, and men's complaints don't get the same public airing that women's complaints do.

    I was planning to post that bicycling picture anyway, to illustrate a discussion of "bloomers." That one is on Wikipedia, but here's another one from the Gladiator Cycle Company. I found it in the book Honour Bound, published in English by Gerard Demaison and Yves Buffetaut. I realize of course that France was such a pioneer in bicycling (and still is; the Tour de France is the most famous bicycle race in the world), not to mention automobiles (Gladiator again, among others), and aviation too, remembering Clement Ader, among others. Why else do we use so many French words for parts of an airplane ("fuselage," "empennage," "ailerons")?

    But that's a digression. Getting back on two wheels, here we see a more traditional image of a family arriving on their Gladiator bicycles in front of what looks like the Palace of Versailles, fresh and relaxed after pedaling easily up the hill. The husband wears bicycling gear; his wife and daughter look so young and beautiful riding girls' bicycles in their white dresses, in accordance with that long-dead Prefect's edict from Napoleonic times. In the background, an older lady in a black dress (not so "modern" as this family) is still toiling up the hill on foot, way behind them, aided by a walking stick--a subtle piece of advertising. Clearly she should have bought herself a Gladiator bicycle instead! The caption: "Les Cycles Gladiator Suppriment l'Effort": "Gladiator Cycles Do Away with Effort!" What fun!

    Last edited by Marianne S; 08-06-2020 at 08:12 PM.

  20. #45
    Member Miel GG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marianne S View Post
    Thank you for the date, Miel. I suspected it was around the turn of the century, before the Great War anyway (which my father fought in), but I couldn't be sure about the fashion. That cute little hat for instance: so very chic and modern looking for the time; I wasn't sure if it was more 1920s.
    The hat is a "canotier". This summer hat of French mariners (male of course !) was initially weared by sportsmen, and at the end of XIXe century by sportswomen (for biking, riding, hunting).

    Quote Originally Posted by Marianne S View Post
    I do wonder though whether any women actually were arrested, prosecuted or fined for wearing trousers in Paris. I read somewhere that under this statute, women could still wear trousers if they obtained permission from local police. Somehow I can't imagine a gallant Parisian flic refusing permission to a jolie Mademoiselle or Madame to wear whatever she liked!
    It seems difficult for you to admit that Parisian women could suffer from the previous law. For a formal standpoint, it is however clear that women and men weren't treated equally, because there was no such law against men transvestite. Being under legal punishment is far more violent than suffering from social shaming (for Parisian men). It constitutes a strong warning and a perfect way to socially control women (it reminds her who's the boss / the clothes worn by the bosses symbolized the power).

    Sadly the archives from Parisian police concerning the requests and authorizations for female transvestites weren't well preserved. It seems that only few women (less than 60) have asked for a permission during the XIXe century, before or after being arrested (they usually had to stay in prison for 5 days and had to pay a fine). The authorizations granted mainly concerned 'masculine' women (i.e. beard women) or eventually women working in a male sector (i.e. house painter). And a few high society ladies (1806 : Melle Mayer, for riding a horse / 1890 : Melle Boullanger, because she was the mistress of Napoleon the 3rd), artists (1890 : Rosa Bonheur, from the famous theater 'La Comedie francaise', for hunting), or women who decided to transvestite to succeed in business (1830, Mlle Foucaud. I really love her story : she was a printing company worker, paid 2.5 francs per job. She learned that the same job was paid 4 francs in the male workshop, so she asked her boss to work with the men. Of course the printing company owner refused, arguing that male and female cannot work together in the same workshop. So she quit. But she cut her hair, put on a trousers and began a few days later to work as a men in the male workshop. As she was well paid, she saved money and bought some houses in the Parisian suburbs that she rented to ragmen).

    For the anecdote, in 1895, Louis Lepine, the Parisian Prefect, fought against the idea of allowing the trousers for women bikers because he wanted to preserve 'the sexual attraction' of women. Argh. But, from the late nineteenth century onwards, feminists have regularly demanded to suppress this law... We unfortunately have few archives for the requests during the XXe century. But French society tended to became more concerned about homophobia after WW2 than about women transvestism.


    Quote Originally Posted by Marianne S View Post
    I wouldn't have guessed you were French. Your English is virtually flawless, and I didn't attach any significance to "Miel" (Honey). It's the same word in Spanish anyway.
    Thanks for the compliment. A few years ago I used to work in an European environment so I had to speak English. But it is way more difficult to express myself about feelings and intimate thoughts in a foreign langage !

    Obviously you love foreign langages. Did you learn or teach French or Spanish ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marianne S View Post
    I'm sorry you feel so negative about life as a woman. A number of women have been taught to feel the same way today. Maybe you've had an unlucky life? Some people do, men and women both. My mother was always so happy to be a woman. She told me "I'd hate to be a man. Look at the awful things men have to do!" As I've mentioned in another post, my father fought in that war alongside your countrymen to help drive the invaders out of your homeland. He was gassed, temporarily blinded, and came out of it with shrapnel in his leg. Luckily he made a full recovery and went on to live a healthy life. Many men were not so lucky, and ended up crippled or dead. I realize of course that most men in these better days are not called upon to fight wars (unless they volunteer), though many have been in the past. But men still do most of the dirty, hard, and dangerous jobs. I just think there's far too much propaganda around encouraging everyone to think "women are hard done by," and whipping up needless resentment and conflict. It doesn't make anyone happier. Nobody's life is perfect, and men's complaints don't get the same public airing that women's complaints do.
    First, I must thank your father for fighting alongside us and I am sorry he was injured. My grandfather was injured during the infamous battle of Verdun (gassed, shrapnel in his lung too). He was a lucky one, 160 000 French soldiers died during this battle.

    Secondly, you are right, both men and women could be unlucky. My life is rather good compared to many of us. But because of my sex at birth, society and individuals always remind me that I am (just) a woman. I posted in another thread a link to a TEDx about gender equality because I found the talk relevant. I don't know if you've seen it. To make things short, in a patriarchal society, male/men stand symbolically for neutral (this is an unconscious bias for most of us). Therefore in such a society people are defined by a variation/difference from that 'neutral'. Because of this bias, we unconsciously confused human with man, and therefore woman is at first a gender variation from the neutral male and not simply another human. The same mechanism leads in an occidental society to consider that Caucasian is neutral, and people from other ethnies are first defined by their skin color (not white)... I don't know if I am making myself clear, but this mechanism explains why we see the gender of a woman before the person herself.

    You must understand and accept that the life experience of a woman is deeply different just because her sex at birth.

    I will give you 3 examples from my personal life.

    - When I was 5, I still remember feeling the injustice of being compelled to stay calm, of not being allowed to make sommersaults in the grass like male cousins because 'I had to present clean and pretty. I could ruin my dress.' (said my mother). I also began to feel angry because my cousins continued to play when I had to set the table, do the dishes, ... That is the moment I truly realized that my sex made a difference and because of that I had less freedom.

    Nobody had taught me anything about feminism at this time !

    - When I was a student, I took the subway every day. Of course we all were squeezed against each other like canned sardines. Several times a man took this opportunity to touch my back (or more). It was deeply humiliating but I never said anything. I used to jump from the wagon and wait for the next subway. I never told anybody of these abuses. I never complained to my mother, my friends, even my boyfriend. Why ? Just because I was ashamed and felt guilty. I never thought the other girls around me endured the same. I have understood retrospectively that I had embodied that as a girl/woman in a public space I would always be a sexual prey, that nobody could change that fact and that I had to endure and shut up.

    I surely would have liked to be told at this time that those male behaviors weren't acceptables ! That I had done nothing wrong. I would have been reassured if I knew they were stalkers who could be punished.

    - Your statement 'Somehow I can't imagine a gallant Parisian flic refusing permission to a jolie Mademoiselle or Madame to wear whatever she liked!' remembered me a nasty moment of my life.
    When I was 30, the VP of the company I worked for told me one day that I had to put a short skirt the next day (I had an appointement with a male representant of the EU to obtain funds). He was not joking. It was terrible. However, in that moment, I had the guts to respond that it was not even an option.

    I surely can write a book about sexism. But my GG sisters too. We all experienced more or less the same things, sadly. I encourage you to have a talk with your SO, daughter, sister, aunt, ... about what kind of sexism and gender discrimination they endure. Men really have to listen to women.

    Thirdly, I cannot agree with your statement 'But men still do most of the dirty, hard, and dangerous jobs'. You probably are aware that women were for a long time not allowed to became soldiers, even if they wanted to (remember that they painfully succeeded to convince military officers that female nurses could be helpful on the battlefield).

    In our contemporary world, the notion of dirty, hard and dangerous has to be updated. For example, dirty, emotionally stressful and physically hard is the job of billions of women taking care of aged persons, sick people or children. Ergonomics studies show that female jobs are very often harder and more stressful than we imagine : supermarket cashiers (mostly female) have musculoskeletal diseases for example. Etc.

    Of course, the men are complaining too. Just a mention of a recent disease : burn out concerns a lot of managers, and managers are more often male than female...

    If you are interested, I can give you references of studies about women's occupational health.

    Wow, I wrote a lot. I am tired !

  21. #46
    Aspiring Member
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    Jul 2005
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    oldest demographic in the states ,watching the sea level rise as bone heads point fingers and yell.
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    744
    mens ....( week end casual ware ) what would you call this other than fantastic?G6.jpgG5.jpg

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