Wanting only the best parts of female 'privilege'

[phili]

I have been working hard to just let myself be a woman [social definition- not biological] and follow my inner impulses. As many of you know, I gave up on trying to look female and just look as feminine as a 70 yr old male can. But- I feel it as much as any teen girl or mature woman, and so I discovered at several points how I started to feel restricted as a woman, in sort of a reverse of being restricted as a man. The gender norms are kind of a division of labor and sets of privileges, and it is an uneasy bargain that males tend to get the better deal with and keep women down.

So when a female woman sees me verging into her area of society by wearing 'women's" clothes that are nice and having a day out, I am clearly playing dressup and cherry picking the presumed 'best of times-. But they understand just how much more there is to being a woman, from their own biology [ok- I said social definition- but most people, like my wife, still feel their biology and their norms are linked], to the work involved in dressing up and grooming for performing 'woman's day out' , and it is meant to be their assigned reward- something they rarely actually get to do, and it is meant to counter the suppression and burdens they have had since being little girls and told they can't climb trees or get muddy or whatever. I sometimes think that the attention getting for looking good is meant to be intense, so it can counter a lot of less good experiences we also lay on them- like not taking their opinions seriously.

So I am specially appreciative of the generous spirit of females who are willing to support me in my foray into these pleasures- knowing that I am a tourist in a way. I do think some feel that my freedom means they are also now free to be perfectly expansive around me- that I won't be enforcing norms on them. It is a break from the guarded tension they feel around men who are either bullies or predatory. At the same time, they no longer see me displaying cave man signals so they aren't sure of my status as protector until I signal it in conversation.

My wife says she feels I am competing with her, and that is an example of the backstory behind what we see. Females learn to wear skirts and dresses as a way of showcasing their prowess as females, to each other and to men. But when they see me, it is a little awkward bc I am now behind the curtain- and their first thought is who am I competing with them for? The male lesbian concept is not one that comes to mind except for bi women.

I feel that women who want to be more liberated are generally tolerant. After all it is still a drag show in their eyes, but not campy or exaggerated, so kind of a social protest. More young women are actively appreciative, I think bc they still believe life is supposed to be good for us all, and free thinking appeals.

So many others seem to feel that life is just hard enough and my protest is pointless, I think. They have found a way to live with the imposed 'natural order' and would just as soon I did too.

Does anyone else see these same dynamics? How has it played out in your SOs acceptance or lack of acceptance?

But my main point is that so much of the tension over going out is founded in deep social bargains.

[Robertacd]

Huh? I am not sure if I am following your argument...

I don't think very many GG's see us as any sort of competition.

But My wife and I have talked about how there's things that I being raised male didn't get drilled into me. Like being "submissive" for lack of a better word. GG's are kinda taught to not be assertive, to let "the man" lead, etc. She said even the way I move through a crowd is not like a GG.

[Asew]

My wife has seen at one time as a competition in a way. But it is more like that I was wearing things I wanted her to wear and she either didn't want to (dresses and skirts) or things she couldn't wear (heels for medical reasons). So that perhaps my dressing was really because she wasn't good enough. And she went on a dress buying shopping spree and wears dresses way more now. Every once in a while she used to ask if she just dressed more like what I liked could I stop dressing. And my response was that it would be nice but it wouldn't work long term so don't wear anything because of me.

How can we steal the best parts of female 'privilege' by losing cis-privilege? Overall it is a net loss. I don't think women hold the ability to wear cute outfits as a privilege as a compromise for the lack of male privilege. In particular many women see the feminine items like skirts/dresses/heels as part of the shackles holding them down which is why a growing number of women barely wear them any more except for special occasions.

[phili]

I thank everyone for the storms of protest. It helped me see how I developed my theory of assigned male and female powers and privileges, coupled with dreadful requirements and repressions, as a social bargain.

I was raised in the 50s, in the postwar baby boom, and my family was very structured around there being 'no rights', only duties, and everything nice was a privilege to be 'earned/(conferred)' or , if assigned, maintained by compliant behavior. my theory has held very well over time, but it is theoretical, and obviously most people here have other ways to think about the subject of privilege.

I was very aware of the intense suppression of the humanity of females in all ways except emotional range. I saw that many, if not most, women suffered more, and more obviously, than men. I was glad that as they grew up many fortunately found ways to adapt and expand and feel successful in the social and personal spaces left open for them. The brutal formality was also reflected in women's right to order men around in certain ways.

Then, with the onset of birth control and middle class wealth, and with the urging of Mad Men style advertising, women tried to make a go of being vixens or cute nice girls. I think I felt like so many girls that somehow I had to be like the magazine and TV idealizations. I knew on one level that beauty is only skin deep, and I would never be beautiful, but I could at least be carefree for ...a few moments?

As a male I had many more freedoms [privileges- in my lexicon] than females- that was obvious- and to keep them I just had to keep proving I was a man. Other men threatened violence on interloping women, while I identified with girls as freer human beings in the emotional realm. They had the privilege of being able to feel, to cry, to be compassionate and talk honestly with each other- ..which were more important to me than the moisturizing and giggling and twirling. I couldn't ask for help to save me life. A psychologist in college once told me I was so bottled up I coudn't say s**t if I had a mouthful."

I am only now gradually seeing and understanding all these things as just normal human activity that I was denied. Yes, I am still holding on to my lifeline of crossdressing. my way to jump in and claim space on the [ok imaginary, perhaps] women's team, in the privacy of my own little world. Until the day i don't need to anymore, if that day comes.

Women's liberation in the 70s started the long march for women to claim their full range of personal freedom. The glass ceiling is crumbling, very slowly. Few women are wearing dresses now- and seem to feel they may have to explain if they do. I feel my desire waning- ... if no one's wearing dresses any more then it has no meaning beyond the pure physicality.

I know I dress to communicate a healthy feminine sexiness, and that is real. My femininity is innate, but I accept that it may not be different from the average human range. I am gradually morphing into a more well rounded human being and the learned gap I learned to maintain, and the accompanying high tension between my 'man' self and 'woman' self is weakening.

The mysteriousness of the magic of crossdressing is waning. I feel more like I am a woman who is wondering if I want to bother sewing another new outfit, or whether the people I will be with will understand and appreciate my clothing choices, or if it will cause static.

That is a testimony to the fact that I no longer feel I am on the outside and have to have the outfit to be on the inside. Now I am on the inside of 'womanhood'- defined as those things I felt I was denied as a human being. That is all good news.

I started the thread to suggest that any of my fellow crossdressers who, like me, idealize 'the world of women', might find it useful to take another look at that world as a holistic experience. The responses from GGs have admirably helped in that.

[Jodie_Lynn]

@phili

Why don't you list what you believe to be female 'privileges', that might make discussion a bit easier. And please state whether you believe that women need to 'earn' these so-called privileges'

[darla_g]

My wife have had conversations along this line. She has stated that some women if they're not comfortable with their self or their sexuality they may feel threatened in the relationship. They want to be the "Female in the relationship" and having a CD there threatens them. Sometimes it is a matter of very traditional upbringing. It really doesn't matter, there can be a bunch of reasons.

The bottom line is that every CD will end up having the "talk" with their spouse. Do they really want to become a Woman? , Does this mean you like men now?? I think most CDs can fill in other questions here.

[Miss Melissa]

I think that's a brilliant post, phili. I couldn't agree more with everything you say.

[Kelly DeWinter]

Social norms are not static, but evolve and change as society changes . Usually at the speed of the fastest communications. Prior to the 5th Century Women and Men both wore skirts, aprons and tunic skirt combinations. Around the 8th century in western culture men began wearing pantaloons and such along gender lines. Although in Eastern and other cultures skirts were still the norm. Fast forward to 18th to 20th century and pants were split almost exclusively by men until the latter 20th century when women began wearing pants. in the early 21st century we see a resurgence of men wearing skirts.

I'm not i see your point of "Females learn to wear skirts and dresses as a way of showcasing their prowess as females", I think it's more a result of advertisers and popular culture have for years showcased a strict delineation of who wears what.

It will be interesting to see where the next 200 years lead to fashion wise, I expect western society will become more poly androgeness where fashion is concerned.

We can probably hasten it as a group by making every day of the week a wear what you want to work day.

[CD Rachel]

Phili,

An interesting line of thought. I remember the first time I came out to my wife (15 or more years ago?) She rejected idea of me cross dressing in a very aggressive manner. I remember her saying something along the line of "I want to be the girl" Just the way she said it made me feel like i had violated her secret territory???

Rachel

[char GG]

I also believe this is a myth, Vicki. For the last 20 years of my working career, I worked in a predominantly female company. Sure, there were plenty of men employed in the company but even the CEO was a female. If there were a "pretty" female who didn't have the brains or guts to do a good job, she was out. All of our female (and male) leaders are extremely smart and qualified. Most of the female leaders are middle age - plus some.

Your idea of, "People who are attractive are more likely to advance in their career and make more money" may be true in some sectors but in my working career, I have not seen it. In fact, from what I have witnessed, an attractive person (man or woman) had to prove their worth, just like everyone else.

[jeanine38]

I think that's a brilliant post, phili. I couldn't agree more with everything you say.

Ditto!!! The OP captures a lot of why I do this. I do think female privilege is real, but society has trouble admitting this.

[Jodie_Lynn]

@jeanine38

Please give us a list of these 'female privileges', if you would be so kind.

[Helen_Highwater]

Phil,

Some of the scenarios you describe possibly had greater relevance some decades ago and while not totally changed society has altered in how womenn are judged. It does remain a truism that females are the ones expected to be more flamboyant, dressy, showy, in their appearance. We know this from the vast difference in choice women have in clothing compared to men's attire. How many men have the bottom of their wardrobe covered in shoes?

What were once solely male dominated jobs are now adding women to the ranks. True it's not a flood but it's happening. Countries around the world either have or have had women in the top political post. The UK has had two female Prime Ministers.

I think that what is sometimes referred to as male privilege should actually be referred to as male bullying. The "lads" using their physical size to intimidate the women in their lives. Men getting jobs over women isn't the reason there are women's refuges. Women don't campaign for safe areas because of a perceived glass ceiling. They're there because of physical violence and not some actual privilege although some males may think they're superior and justified in their actions.

When any of us go out dressed we enter the female world and it's a foolish CD'er who doesn't take personal safety seriously. We not only know just how much effort goes into getting ready to go out but also that there are knuckle dragging morons out their who think might is right. We're allies to women not competitors. We understand at least in part what they experience and are far from looking for the best of both worlds.

[char GG]

I can relate to this. This is exactly how my ex-wife felt whenever I wanted to dress in the bedroom. She wanted to be the "desired one", the "pretty one", the "sexy one" etc. She was clearly threatened by my use of traditionally female "temptress signals" like heels, stockings, garter belts etc.

My thought would be that your ex just wasn't attracted to "women". A female "temptress" in the bedroom would probably turn off some wives.

[Teresa]

Phili,
My wife did accuse me of competeing with her when I cooked the Xmas meal for my daughter and her family but it wasn't based on what I wore but more to do with actually replacing her in her female role as a mother .

I do feel you are making the point from just what clothes you wear , as I've been told heatedly by other members on occasions " It's not all about the clothes !". I posted a thread titled " It's totally possible " where I proved to myself wearing women's work clothes with a liitle makeup and my wig it's possible to jobs I would normally prefer to do in male mode .

I feel your problem still revolves round your wife's acceptance and possibly concerns about what other people think , going full time removes those problems , I certainly don't feel I'm out there to compete with women and on the whole I don't feel I'm seen as competition or perhaps a threat . If people are comfortable with what they see , there is no tension , if a seventy year old wants to look like a tenage girl then maybe it might raise a few eyebrows and awkwardness .

I also don't really see either gender exhibiting a privilege now , I'm not taking the best bits I'm dealing with my dysphoria the best way I can .

Darla,
That is usually the obvious question but I'm no more interested in men as Teresa as I was in male mode , I can't help it if that's what some people choose to think . I do feel you have a point about women feeling we're competition if they lack confidence as a woman .

[phili]

Jodie, I don't consider anything to be 'privileges' any more for the purposes of public discussion of gender behaviors! As I said, for me, every freedom is a privilege, under threat of revocation by some authority- and that this is derived from childhood experience, magnified into a social theory, and it has limited value as a generalization, so I'm dropping it!

I should have said in the OP only that we could benefit from considering more fully the experience of females, and in so doing might find that our view of desirable clothes, actions, behaviors, etc would not coincide well with much of what we found females were feeling and experiencing. On a more subtle point, I'd say we share the ache to be free- and in particular to be able to express the full range of our feelings and explore the full range of our capacities.

Diane T- I was generalizing here- guaranteed to be wrong on something that has much more nuance. We routinely oversimplify the lives of others, and even ourselves!

[sometimes_miss]

Female 'privilege' is basically the option to either become a mother / wife / career person, two of the three, or go for all of the above. Men have one option, and only one. While there are a few stay at home dads, it, just like being a crossdresser, is generally frowned upon, and unless he's rich, is often considered just a leech by many. Even John Lennon was considered a slacker for just quitting the music biz to spend more time with his family, instead of holding up the 'always be more ambitious' role that every man is supposed to.
Women don't have to, and are not expected to, always try for more pay and a higher position at work. Another 'privilege'.
I am an example of what men are expected to do; I had found a job I liked, and made good money, but was frequently questioned by both women and men, as to why I didn't try for a management position; and when it was offered, and I refused, people thought it odd that 'a man' would turn down 'a promotion'. They couldn't accept that I would prefer to keep a job I liked, rather than make more money and do something I didn't like. Men are just assumed to want to seek the most money and powerful positions possible, even if the job is awful to do; we're just expected to do it.
Women are also the ones to decide whether to accept a proposal of marriage, or refuse.
With the onset of widespread availability of birth control to women, they can also choose whether to be sexually active, or not, as well as whether to bear children, or not.

And the option to marry, have children, and sue for divorce and alimony when tired of their mate, is still generally reserved for women; men who do so, are generally ridiculed for doing that, as well.
Now I'm not saying that women have it easy in life by any means, just that there are advantages and disadvantages to existing as either sex.

Oh, and a 1990's Wall Street Journal article quoted labor stats, which showed that single, college educated women were making a mean of 101% of what college educated men were making, establishing that women who were serious about their careers, were indeed able to make the same money as men do. The women who made less? Those who choose other things outside of their career to focus on; ANYTHING that takes away focus on the career will inevitably wind up decreasing income.

[phili]

Thanks for the feedback so far! All good points.

Teresa, I accept your kind caring and I can tell my philosophical treatises ring through for you as me struggling with my wife, and certainly that is true. I am also an academic theorizer and practical synthesizer at heart, so I would be analyzing the dynamics of gender variance no matter how happy and accepted I was. In fact, I basically feel very accepted- thanks to my local college classes. I really found complete ease there as a mirl, middle-aged appearing though I am actually 70.

I really appreciate the contrary POV on privilege. The fun things so many of us talk about [cute sensual clothes and space and time to enjoy feeling like women in various ways from casual to sexual] seem so basic as human pleasures that as a teen I concluded they are privileges and understood that way by females. I saw it as a social bargain, and actually I think many females did see it that way, based on comments.

Simply put, as a boy I had more freedom and girls got to be emotional and pretty. I had to go to war and get killed, and they had to do all the housework. I had to set aside feelings and make sure the family was safe and they got to be nurturing and emotional. I know that this is not universal, but it certainly was my world.

However, I also see that has changed- women's liberation has thoroughly penetrated the culture, and dress wearing and even the fashion runway seem very out of date, and women feeling like they have to excuse/explain why they are wearing dresses. Those that do seem very clearly to want to enjoy the same things we want to enjoy- and it is a kind of tragedy that it is going away, but I am enjoying while it lasts.

[Teresa]

Phili,
I see the situation more from the number of single parents male and female having to adopt and adapt to gender roles not always associated with them .

I also agree we both come from a generation where gender was more defined , I also can see where little girls appeared to have all the fun by dressing and doing things some boys were exempted from . I'm probably right in saying you also feel it's a wasted opportunity today for the modern female , I do sometimes wonder if some women miss the lack of those choices . I can't help asking the basic question , what is wrong with being FEMININE ? It feels like modern society has taken that choice away , is it a privilege also being denied to some women ?

[SaraLin]

just throwing this out there...

I haven't noticed this thought yet, but I can see where the wife could feel she's competing with the "other woman" (him, dressed).
Not only could she fear losing her man to "her", but how on earth can she win this fight - and keep the MAN she fell in love with?
It's got to be terrifying.

[phili]

Hi Teresa,
Yes to all of that. In our generation females had to learn to adapt and make the most of their role as best they could, as we did. And for the lucky ones, at least the occasional privilege to be safely vulnerable while enjoying the freedom of joyousness in their expression. I think that is the inexorable draw for me- the liberation of my emotional self. I can hardly believe my good fortune in being able to experience total freedom to be emotionally expressive [in a normal way] and to be able to enjoy the comfort and style and swish of a dress as the way I am known in the world [outside the house, obviously and unfortunately- but I'll take it!]

When I am femme all day, though, I may find my masculine directness and object orientation bubbling up so I can focus on getting something done, not diluting my attention and eating up psychological space with delighting in my feminine pleasures. I think- oh this is what women feel when they are trying to maintain their identity as women, but none of them really have anything to do with moving that rock.

I think females do recognize that there is huge diversity among them in every respect, so they understand me in that context- I am grooming myself as a woman might who is rather male looking- but their generosity of spirit allows them to say- well- you are entitled to share in that task! And they know that task inside and out. And that task has different meanings for different women. My wife and others feel that it is their badge for a defined social role as wife and housemother and commentator, etc. And for me to dress in a way that suggests I am horning in on the woman's world is a form of illegal immigration! They want a wall.

Many men continuously reaffirm their masculinity to each other, and to female women. My wife expects that from me. She listens to the rhythm of my steps in the hall, and expects them to be clumpy, not light. She expects my torso to be stolid, not sinuous, etc. She expects me to be attentive, and to expect respect, but not to desire attention. That keeps her world view and habits intact and, in her mind, safer than the alternatives.

[Vickie_CDTV]

I am an ugly person, and I am not "competition" to anyone, much less a GG. I never even thought such a thing. I just wear fancier clothes than most women choose to wear. Nothing is stopping them from wearing skirts and nylons and heels too if they wish. I am not attracted to men, and they are definitely not attracted to me, so no competition there either.

Young women may be tolerant of gender diversity than older women, but they are no more attracted to feminine/passive men than older women are. Women still expect men to stay in their traditional gender roles if they are to be potential partners.

[Cheryl T]

My wife told me she thought I was competing with her from the outset.
I explained this is for me not to compete with you but she was adamant about it saying this is what women do. From the very beginning of puberty women compete with each other for peer approval, for partners, to look better than their girlfriends. She said it's just natural. I suppose it's the same for men, but they just don't notice it the same way.
Even now nearly 20 years after I came out to her and we initially discussed this it still appears. She ordered a few dresses for summer and when they arrived she tried them on. She was disappointed in the way she looked in one and said "here, you try it on". Then she stood there with this look and when I asked what was wrong she said, "you look better in it than I do". It's still a competition of sorts and most likely always will be. That's just the way it is.

[PetiteDuality]

I'm not out, but sometimes I shave my legs. My wife is ok with it now, but she didn't like it at the beginning. She thought she would be pressured to be spotless.

Not at all! But that's how sometimes ladies read our feminine side.

[Teresa]

Cheryl,
I must admit it is a problem with my wife but she's never going to admit it , she may to another woman but not to a TG husband .

I guess it does pose the question when you buy something new and you wonder how good you will look but how good , are we really competing ?