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Thread: Wanting only the best parts of female 'privilege'

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    Senior Member phili's Avatar
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    Wanting only the best parts of female 'privilege'

    I have been working hard to just let myself be a woman [social definition- not biological] and follow my inner impulses. As many of you know, I gave up on trying to look female and just look as feminine as a 70 yr old male can. But- I feel it as much as any teen girl or mature woman, and so I discovered at several points how I started to feel restricted as a woman, in sort of a reverse of being restricted as a man. The gender norms are kind of a division of labor and sets of privileges, and it is an uneasy bargain that males tend to get the better deal with and keep women down.

    So when a female woman sees me verging into her area of society by wearing 'women's" clothes that are nice and having a day out, I am clearly playing dressup and cherry picking the presumed 'best of times-. But they understand just how much more there is to being a woman, from their own biology [ok- I said social definition- but most people, like my wife, still feel their biology and their norms are linked], to the work involved in dressing up and grooming for performing 'woman's day out' , and it is meant to be their assigned reward- something they rarely actually get to do, and it is meant to counter the suppression and burdens they have had since being little girls and told they can't climb trees or get muddy or whatever. I sometimes think that the attention getting for looking good is meant to be intense, so it can counter a lot of less good experiences we also lay on them- like not taking their opinions seriously.

    So I am specially appreciative of the generous spirit of females who are willing to support me in my foray into these pleasures- knowing that I am a tourist in a way. I do think some feel that my freedom means they are also now free to be perfectly expansive around me- that I won't be enforcing norms on them. It is a break from the guarded tension they feel around men who are either bullies or predatory. At the same time, they no longer see me displaying cave man signals so they aren't sure of my status as protector until I signal it in conversation.

    My wife says she feels I am competing with her, and that is an example of the backstory behind what we see. Females learn to wear skirts and dresses as a way of showcasing their prowess as females, to each other and to men. But when they see me, it is a little awkward bc I am now behind the curtain- and their first thought is who am I competing with them for? The male lesbian concept is not one that comes to mind except for bi women.

    I feel that women who want to be more liberated are generally tolerant. After all it is still a drag show in their eyes, but not campy or exaggerated, so kind of a social protest. More young women are actively appreciative, I think bc they still believe life is supposed to be good for us all, and free thinking appeals.

    So many others seem to feel that life is just hard enough and my protest is pointless, I think. They have found a way to live with the imposed 'natural order' and would just as soon I did too.

    Does anyone else see these same dynamics? How has it played out in your SOs acceptance or lack of acceptance?

    But my main point is that so much of the tension over going out is founded in deep social bargains.
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    Huh? I am not sure if I am following your argument...

    I don't think very many GG's see us as any sort of competition.

    But My wife and I have talked about how there's things that I being raised male didn't get drilled into me. Like being "submissive" for lack of a better word. GG's are kinda taught to not be assertive, to let "the man" lead, etc. She said even the way I move through a crowd is not like a GG.

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    Senior Member Asew's Avatar
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    My wife has seen at one time as a competition in a way. But it is more like that I was wearing things I wanted her to wear and she either didn't want to (dresses and skirts) or things she couldn't wear (heels for medical reasons). So that perhaps my dressing was really because she wasn't good enough. And she went on a dress buying shopping spree and wears dresses way more now. Every once in a while she used to ask if she just dressed more like what I liked could I stop dressing. And my response was that it would be nice but it wouldn't work long term so don't wear anything because of me.

    How can we steal the best parts of female 'privilege' by losing cis-privilege? Overall it is a net loss. I don't think women hold the ability to wear cute outfits as a privilege as a compromise for the lack of male privilege. In particular many women see the feminine items like skirts/dresses/heels as part of the shackles holding them down which is why a growing number of women barely wear them any more except for special occasions.

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    Silver Member darla_g's Avatar
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    My wife have had conversations along this line. She has stated that some women if they're not comfortable with their self or their sexuality they may feel threatened in the relationship. They want to be the "Female in the relationship" and having a CD there threatens them. Sometimes it is a matter of very traditional upbringing. It really doesn't matter, there can be a bunch of reasons.

    The bottom line is that every CD will end up having the "talk" with their spouse. Do they really want to become a Woman? , Does this mean you like men now?? I think most CDs can fill in other questions here.
    Last edited by char GG; 10-14-2020 at 01:26 PM. Reason: No religion comments

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    I think that's a brilliant post, phili. I couldn't agree more with everything you say.

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    Platinum Member Teresa's Avatar
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    Phili,
    My wife did accuse me of competeing with her when I cooked the Xmas meal for my daughter and her family but it wasn't based on what I wore but more to do with actually replacing her in her female role as a mother .

    I do feel you are making the point from just what clothes you wear , as I've been told heatedly by other members on occasions " It's not all about the clothes !". I posted a thread titled " It's totally possible " where I proved to myself wearing women's work clothes with a liitle makeup and my wig it's possible to jobs I would normally prefer to do in male mode .

    I feel your problem still revolves round your wife's acceptance and possibly concerns about what other people think , going full time removes those problems , I certainly don't feel I'm out there to compete with women and on the whole I don't feel I'm seen as competition or perhaps a threat . If people are comfortable with what they see , there is no tension , if a seventy year old wants to look like a tenage girl then maybe it might raise a few eyebrows and awkwardness .

    I also don't really see either gender exhibiting a privilege now , I'm not taking the best bits I'm dealing with my dysphoria the best way I can .

    Darla,
    That is usually the obvious question but I'm no more interested in men as Teresa as I was in male mode , I can't help it if that's what some people choose to think . I do feel you have a point about women feeling we're competition if they lack confidence as a woman .
    Last edited by Teresa; 10-14-2020 at 07:42 PM.
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    Aspiring Artist Kelly DeWinter's Avatar
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    Social norms are not static, but evolve and change as society changes . Usually at the speed of the fastest communications. Prior to the 5th Century Women and Men both wore skirts, aprons and tunic skirt combinations. Around the 8th century in western culture men began wearing pantaloons and such along gender lines. Although in Eastern and other cultures skirts were still the norm. Fast forward to 18th to 20th century and pants were split almost exclusively by men until the latter 20th century when women began wearing pants. in the early 21st century we see a resurgence of men wearing skirts.

    I'm not i see your point of "Females learn to wear skirts and dresses as a way of showcasing their prowess as females", I think it's more a result of advertisers and popular culture have for years showcased a strict delineation of who wears what.

    It will be interesting to see where the next 200 years lead to fashion wise, I expect western society will become more poly androgeness where fashion is concerned.

    We can probably hasten it as a group by making every day of the week a wear what you want to work day.
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    Phili,

    An interesting line of thought. I remember the first time I came out to my wife (15 or more years ago?) She rejected idea of me cross dressing in a very aggressive manner. I remember her saying something along the line of "I want to be the girl" Just the way she said it made me feel like i had violated her secret territory???

    Rachel

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    Weirdest woman ever! docrobbysherry's Avatar
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    Phili, interesting post except for the heading. I read very little "female priviledge" in it!

    My college girlfriend and I kept in touch and often met for 30 years. Until Sherry showed up. After a few months of seeing and hearing about her, my old girlfriend disappeared! Of course, Sherry is shapelier and 25+ years younger than her! So, maybe she had a rite to be jealous?

    As far as younger women accepting trans? My daughter's r in their 20's and 30's. They've both told of multiple cases of strange acting and appearing males and females that they grew up with. It isn't that they're that open minded. It's just that they're more used to gay and trans folks than our generations r!
    U can't keep doing the same things over and over and expect to enjoy life to the max. When u try new things, even if they r out of your comfort zone, u may experience new excitement and growth that u never expected.

    Challenge yourself and pursue your passions! When your life clock runs out, you'll have few or NO REGRETS!

  10. #10
    Senior Member phili's Avatar
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    Thanks for the feedback so far! All good points.

    Teresa, I accept your kind caring and I can tell my philosophical treatises ring through for you as me struggling with my wife, and certainly that is true. I am also an academic theorizer and practical synthesizer at heart, so I would be analyzing the dynamics of gender variance no matter how happy and accepted I was. In fact, I basically feel very accepted- thanks to my local college classes. I really found complete ease there as a mirl, middle-aged appearing though I am actually 70.

    I really appreciate the contrary POV on privilege. The fun things so many of us talk about [cute sensual clothes and space and time to enjoy feeling like women in various ways from casual to sexual] seem so basic as human pleasures that as a teen I concluded they are privileges and understood that way by females. I saw it as a social bargain, and actually I think many females did see it that way, based on comments.

    Simply put, as a boy I had more freedom and girls got to be emotional and pretty. I had to go to war and get killed, and they had to do all the housework. I had to set aside feelings and make sure the family was safe and they got to be nurturing and emotional. I know that this is not universal, but it certainly was my world.

    However, I also see that has changed- women's liberation has thoroughly penetrated the culture, and dress wearing and even the fashion runway seem very out of date, and women feeling like they have to excuse/explain why they are wearing dresses. Those that do seem very clearly to want to enjoy the same things we want to enjoy- and it is a kind of tragedy that it is going away, but I am enjoying while it lasts.
    We are all beautiful...!

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    Platinum Member Teresa's Avatar
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    Phili,
    I see the situation more from the number of single parents male and female having to adopt and adapt to gender roles not always associated with them .

    I also agree we both come from a generation where gender was more defined , I also can see where little girls appeared to have all the fun by dressing and doing things some boys were exempted from . I'm probably right in saying you also feel it's a wasted opportunity today for the modern female , I do sometimes wonder if some women miss the lack of those choices . I can't help asking the basic question , what is wrong with being FEMININE ? It feels like modern society has taken that choice away , is it a privilege also being denied to some women ?
    The real me ,no going back.

  12. #12
    Senior Member phili's Avatar
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    Hi Teresa,
    Yes to all of that. In our generation females had to learn to adapt and make the most of their role as best they could, as we did. And for the lucky ones, at least the occasional privilege to be safely vulnerable while enjoying the freedom of joyousness in their expression. I think that is the inexorable draw for me- the liberation of my emotional self. I can hardly believe my good fortune in being able to experience total freedom to be emotionally expressive [in a normal way] and to be able to enjoy the comfort and style and swish of a dress as the way I am known in the world [outside the house, obviously and unfortunately- but I'll take it!]

    When I am femme all day, though, I may find my masculine directness and object orientation bubbling up so I can focus on getting something done, not diluting my attention and eating up psychological space with delighting in my feminine pleasures. I think- oh this is what women feel when they are trying to maintain their identity as women, but none of them really have anything to do with moving that rock.

    I think females do recognize that there is huge diversity among them in every respect, so they understand me in that context- I am grooming myself as a woman might who is rather male looking- but their generosity of spirit allows them to say- well- you are entitled to share in that task! And they know that task inside and out. And that task has different meanings for different women. My wife and others feel that it is their badge for a defined social role as wife and housemother and commentator, etc. And for me to dress in a way that suggests I am horning in on the woman's world is a form of illegal immigration! They want a wall.

    Many men continuously reaffirm their masculinity to each other, and to female women. My wife expects that from me. She listens to the rhythm of my steps in the hall, and expects them to be clumpy, not light. She expects my torso to be stolid, not sinuous, etc. She expects me to be attentive, and to expect respect, but not to desire attention. That keeps her world view and habits intact and, in her mind, safer than the alternatives.
    We are all beautiful...!

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    I am an ugly person, and I am not "competition" to anyone, much less a GG. I never even thought such a thing. I just wear fancier clothes than most women choose to wear. Nothing is stopping them from wearing skirts and nylons and heels too if they wish. I am not attracted to men, and they are definitely not attracted to me, so no competition there either.

    Young women may be tolerant of gender diversity than older women, but they are no more attracted to feminine/passive men than older women are. Women still expect men to stay in their traditional gender roles if they are to be potential partners.

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    Exploring NEPA now Cheryl T's Avatar
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    My wife told me she thought I was competing with her from the outset.
    I explained this is for me not to compete with you but she was adamant about it saying this is what women do. From the very beginning of puberty women compete with each other for peer approval, for partners, to look better than their girlfriends. She said it's just natural. I suppose it's the same for men, but they just don't notice it the same way.
    Even now nearly 20 years after I came out to her and we initially discussed this it still appears. She ordered a few dresses for summer and when they arrived she tried them on. She was disappointed in the way she looked in one and said "here, you try it on". Then she stood there with this look and when I asked what was wrong she said, "you look better in it than I do". It's still a competition of sorts and most likely always will be. That's just the way it is.
    Wear what makes you feel Confident !

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    Duality sometimes hurts.. PetiteDuality's Avatar
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    I'm not out, but sometimes I shave my legs. My wife is ok with it now, but she didn't like it at the beginning. She thought she would be pressured to be spotless.

    Not at all! But that's how sometimes ladies read our feminine side.

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    Platinum Member Teresa's Avatar
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    Cheryl,
    I must admit it is a problem with my wife but she's never going to admit it , she may to another woman but not to a TG husband .

    I guess it does pose the question when you buy something new and you wonder how good you will look but how good , are we really competing ?
    The real me ,no going back.

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    "I gave up on trying to look female and just look as feminine as a 70 year old can be."

    I found that statement to be rather perplexing. There are physical attributes a female possesses by virtue of her dna; breasts, hips, etc. There are other attributes which are dependent upon a woman choosing to express herself; hair style, clothing, makeup. The vast majority of cross dressing men seem to want to mimic the physicality of women. Hence, the breast and hip enhancements. The wig. The makeup. In the eyes of women, not men, does that make the man feminine? If a man chooses to just wear the clothing currently sold to women, and not don the body enhancements, does that make the man look feminine to the observer? Or, does that confuse the observer? I always thought "feminine" was more of an expression of a woman's self. I related many times on this forum of seeing a young female with long hair and wearing all the vestments of a construction worker driving and operating a cement mixer; steel toed boots, hardhat, flannel shirt, jeans. She had a big smile on her face which was not directed to an observer. It was herself. Happy. I,as the viewer, thought she looked very feminine. Very feminine. It was NOT the clothes. It was how she carried herself. There enters the male observer. How would another woman observe her? I do not know as I am not woman. What would the observer think if that cement truck operator were a man standing there in a dress with unshaven face, hairy arms and legs? I do not believe any man or woman would view him as feminine, but, rather projecting confusion.

    When my wife and I had "The Talk" which was long before the internet was here I tried to express my feelings with the line of trying to "express my feminine side." That did not work well at all. She retorted "When you can have a baby tell me about your feminine side!" That really sunk in. Can I really proclaim I have a feminine side? Of course, my physical appearance out and about in the world will give the reality of my genetic sex as a male, i.e., I do not pass! I have seen others who I am sure do pass. Personally, if anyone were to ask me now, "Why do you try to emulate a woman?" I would say "I do not know why I do what I do!" I can say how I feel. The process relieves stress. I love the colors, etc. But, I cannot claim femininity, only the attempt to outwardly look like a female. My wife proclaimed, "If I wanted to marry a woman I would have married a woman!" not a man pretending to be a woman.

    My wife does not feel certain tasks fall within the domain of a man or a woman. Feel free to push the vacuum. Cook. Bake, Clean the bathrooms (ugh). She mows the lawn. She states whenever one calls her a housewife, that she is NOT married to a house. If I were to suddenly appear to my female friends wearing a dress and heels they would think I had flipped my lid. I would not appear as a threat to their femininity or womanhood. They would probably ask my wife, "What happened?" They would want to assured I am not unbalanced. Maybe, over a period of time they would dismiss my attire as non-threatening to them, physically. The word feminine would not enter the equation.

    None of this has anything to do with a transsexual. My wife and other women who I associate with do accept the premise there can be a genetic mismatch between mind and body.

  18. #18
    Girl about Town Jodie_Lynn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheryl T View Post
    My wife told me she thought I was competing with her from the outset.
    I explained this is for me not to compete with you but she was adamant about it saying this is what women do. From the very beginning of puberty women compete with each other for peer approval, for partners, to look better than their girlfriends. She said it's just natural. I suppose it's the same for men, but they just don't notice it the same way.
    What your wife said is true: women compete against each other, and men compete against each other as well. It's just that the form of competition is different for both genders.

    Men tend to display macho "alpha" traits and will try to 'dominate' their peers with income, cars, or physical prowess and strength. They will publicly ridicule each other for their failings, especially in front of a female audience.

    Women, generally speaking, are far more subtle, sly and insidious, from my experience. Especially, if two women are interested in the same guy. Machiavelli could take notes....

    As for the concept of "female privilege", I'm not sure what the OP is driving at. Women still make less money than their male counterparts doing the same job. Women are still treated as second class citizens, their opinions disregarded, they are continually talked over, "mansplained to", and generally treated as precocious and amusing 'pets' by a patriarchal society.



    And the OP, in my opinion, is spreading the patriarchal BS by stating that a "Girls Day Out" is some kind of "reward" for good behaviour!

    I have been living, 24/7, as a woman since March of this year. I've found a job with an employer who accepts me as the person I present as. My co-workers have accepted me, and I've experienced some 'privileges' of being female. Men have helped me, thinking I was physically challenged by the task at hand; a male colleague intervened when I was confronted by a belligerent customer, placing himself between the customer and me. A female colleague dragged me into the Ladies room, in order to give me a bag of cosmetic goodies she had! Never used, she thought they were "too young" for her!

    I have had men explain to me aspects of my job that I have TAUGHT to others, in other jobs! And I've seen the confused look on their face when I point out where they were wrong. I had one gau say "you're pretty smart about this", the unspoken part being "... for a girl."

    Then, there is the flip side.... "female restrictions". Not feeling safe at certain times, in certain areas.

    Last night, 10/14/20, I attended a town hall meeting. When it ended, it was totally dark, and I realized my car was parked in an isolated area. I stood by the entrance of the venue for a few minutes, hoping someone else was heading in the direction I needed to go. No luck. I was dressed in court shoes ( 3" heels ), a skirt ( pencil, to my knees ), and blouse. Now, I'm sure many of you are competent in your ability to defend yourselves, BUT, ever consider having to fight while en femme?

    After a few moments, a Sheriff's Deputy approached and asked if everything was OK. I explained my dilemma and asked if he would keep an eye out. He did better... he escorted me to my car, and wished me a safe night. I'm 100% certain he knew I wasn't a GG, but he treated me like one.


    So, what in holy hell is "the best part of female privilege?"
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  19. #19
    Gold Member Helen_Highwater's Avatar
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    Phil,

    Some of the scenarios you describe possibly had greater relevance some decades ago and while not totally changed society has altered in how womenn are judged. It does remain a truism that females are the ones expected to be more flamboyant, dressy, showy, in their appearance. We know this from the vast difference in choice women have in clothing compared to men's attire. How many men have the bottom of their wardrobe covered in shoes?

    What were once solely male dominated jobs are now adding women to the ranks. True it's not a flood but it's happening. Countries around the world either have or have had women in the top political post. The UK has had two female Prime Ministers.

    I think that what is sometimes referred to as male privilege should actually be referred to as male bullying. The "lads" using their physical size to intimidate the women in their lives. Men getting jobs over women isn't the reason there are women's refuges. Women don't campaign for safe areas because of a perceived glass ceiling. They're there because of physical violence and not some actual privilege although some males may think they're superior and justified in their actions.

    When any of us go out dressed we enter the female world and it's a foolish CD'er who doesn't take personal safety seriously. We not only know just how much effort goes into getting ready to go out but also that there are knuckle dragging morons out their who think might is right. We're allies to women not competitors. We understand at least in part what they experience and are far from looking for the best of both worlds.
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  20. #20
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    To those of you who say that your wives think you are competing with them (several of you have written this), can you tell me what you think they mean? Or can you ask your wives directly what they think you are competing for, in other words, what is the prize for the winner of the competition.

    If your wives say it is a competition to be the prettiest, or most attractive, or sexiest, then ask yourselves why some women think they want to be the prettiest, most attractive, or sexiest. After all, these are not qualities that help to attain major life goals such as career advancement, or realizing personal goals such as getting in shape, achieving artistic merit, mastering a new skill, etc, or establishing close and loving relationships with family, children or friends.

    But I can tell you why some (not all) women think they want to be the prettiest, or most attractive, or the sexiest (which applies to younger women more than mature ones). Fundamentally, it is a competition for men - whether to get a new one, or to keep the current one if he has a roving eye. Or simply to please the current one.

    So if your wives say that you are competing with them, then what do you think they subconsciously feel about your sexual interests. Do they think that you are competing with them (or women in general) for men’s attention and if so, what does this say about the sexual relationships you have with your wives.

    Just sayin’
    Reine

  21. #21
    Super Moderator char GG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Natasha T View Post
    I can relate to this. This is exactly how my ex-wife felt whenever I wanted to dress in the bedroom. She wanted to be the "desired one", the "pretty one", the "sexy one" etc. She was clearly threatened by my use of traditionally female "temptress signals" like heels, stockings, garter belts etc.
    My thought would be that your ex just wasn't attracted to "women". A female "temptress" in the bedroom would probably turn off some wives.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    But I can tell you why some (not all) women think they want to be the prettiest, or most attractive, or the sexiest (which applies to younger women more than mature ones). Fundamentally, it is a competition for men - whether to get a new one, or to keep the current one if he has a roving eye. Or simply to please the current one.
    My wife made a comment once attributed to one of her female friends. She discovered her husband was gay. She said, "If I had to compete with another woman I could do that. But, how to I compete with a gay man for my husband?"

    IMHO, I don't think many women are going to enter a competition with the "female" side of their husbands just because he wants to get all dolled up and sit on the couch and watch "chick flicks."

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    i have never ever ever felt a cder as a threat or any kind of competition . I wear alot of dresses but is mainly because i have had so much abdominal surgery that pants hurt alot , I also dress mainly like Stevie( since 1977) or other major hippy gypsy wear because of who I am . I could care less what others think .

    Now I have mentioned porn before and with my ex husband I wasn't threatened but turned off . This was used to replace me and I knew I could not compete with those folks in the videos that were female on top and male on the bottom so I just finally checked out . That was too complicated and I have better things to do with my life than compete with that , plenty of guys that would like just a regular cis girl .

    Kat however as you all know made me feel like a total goddess and s/he was totally out and only sometimes would dress very androgynous , so I dont know what was so different but something was , I think it was in the attitude and what and WHO they were thinking about .

    My ex husband was thinking only about himself , Kat thought about me .
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    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Natasha T View Post
    My sense is that she just couldn't wrap her head around sharing her "female domain" in any way.
    Words like "female domain" are just so vague! Can you be more precise? I can tell you what I consider is a "domain" that is strictly female: the ability to give birth and lactate. Anything other than that is totally fair game for both sexes! Feel a need to dominate or be passive in bed? Both men and women can feel either of these needs, just look at the BDSM community. Feel a need to protect loved ones? Both men and women feel this, just look at how a mother protects yer young. Feel a need to compete with others to get ahead or "win"? Again, both men and women feel this, just look at female entrepreneurs, female sports figures, female career professionals, etc.

    But if to you "female domain" means a need or desire to attract men, then in the cis world this is indeed a "female domain", just as a need or desire to attract women is strictly a "male domain" (in the cis world). This doesn?t apply to same-sex attracted people, obviously. And so I understand if your wife felt frustrated because she perceived that you desired to be female more than you desired her. Every woman wants to feel as if her partner desires her more than anyone or anything else. So this is not wanting to retain one?s "female domain" as much as wanting sexual attraction to be mutual with one?s partner, with nothing else getting in the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Natasha T View Post
    It was more like she couldn't perform the gestalt shift needed. My cross-dressing desires just could not fit into her models of male and female roles and interactions.
    What perception or belief of hers needed to shift? That you were a woman? She probably didn?t see you that way. There are indeed wives who dislike the crossdressing, but it?s not because of any firm ideas of what male or female roles should be (because we really don?t have firm male or female roles anymore, not like in the 1950s, if you consider modern career options, modern sharing of household chores, etc). So these wives dislike the crossdressing because they don?t want other things taking away their husband?s attention or attraction to the wife.

    I suppose some wives also don't like the crossdressing because they don't like the negative fallout (like being at the receiving end of gossip or being ostracized by some people) because we do live in a society that is largely intolerant of men who present like females. But, even some crossdressers don't like that either, which is why so many choose to keep the crossdressing private from family and friends.
    Last edited by ReineD; 10-15-2020 at 05:19 PM.
    Reine

  25. #25
    Silver Member Micki_Finn's Avatar
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    All I can say is that I disagree with practically everything.

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