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Thread: Where is the Line?

  1. #1
    Total Dork GwenHerself's Avatar
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    Where is the Line?

    In your mind, at what point does a crossdresser become transgender?

  2. #2
    Isn't Life Grand? AllieSF's Avatar
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    I erased the line. With no line to think about I just did what came naturally for me, and here I am today about 13 years after starting to crossdress from zero, a full time trans woman, a woman, just getting on with life. Try it and you may just like it! That is, try erasing that line and let nature propel you or slow you down..

  3. #3
    Member Geena75's Avatar
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    Strictly my own definition, mind you. I think a crossdresser is a person who gets enjoyment from dressing up and presenting themselves as the opposite gender, at the same time being certain of their own gender. i.e. a man who dresses up like a woman for fun, but always knows he is a man and is satisfied with that. Trans gender is someone who feels they are, or should be, a gender other than their birth gender. i.e. a man who dresses up like a woman because he feels that is an accurate reflection of his gender. The enjoyment is because he is presenting his true self. I suppose I would have crossed the line when I believe I actually am a woman, not a guy pretending to be a woman.

  4. #4
    Member Cassiek's Avatar
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    Well put Geena. I love getting made up, dressed and feeling pretty. I also love being a man. Kinda like the commercial says. Sometimes you feel like a nut sometimes you don?t.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Pumped's Avatar
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    I believe it is when you decide to dress full time. The admission, the commitment. Sure there is certainly some grey area before that, and not all the dress all the time are trans, but until you decide to commit, you are a CD'er or perhaps on the way to transgender. Can you be transgender and fully in the closet, never dress? I don't know.

    In response to a pervious post, I am a man that has a desire to dress, it is more than simply for fun and enjoyment. If I don't dress for a few days I get agitated and miss it terribly. I believe I might be somewhere on the TG scale, there is something wired a bit "off" in my brain. I feel more complete dressed, but I face the realty that I will never transition, for many reasons, so I dress.

  6. #6
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    The line is within you, as it all comes down to why you crossdress.

  7. #7
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    I agree with Geena 100%. Ill even add more that separates a trans person from the avg cd. The avg crossdresser I believe looks at clothes, personal grooming, overall appearance, and a few other things. A lot different then a trans person would. At least that is what I have noticed as a trans person. I get that there are cds that care about that stuff as munch as a trans woman, but I wouldn't really call them a cd. To me they really are trans.

  8. #8
    Lady By Choice Leslie Langford's Avatar
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    Reading the replies to this thread so far, it strikes me that many here are still blurring the lines as to what the word "transgender" really means and are still using that term interchangeably with the term "transsexual"...not unlike the mainstream media and the confusion it often sows among the "muggles" as to what we really are.

    My understanding is that the word "transgender" is a umbrella term that encompasses crossdressers, the gender fluid and similar individuals whose gender identity doesn't necessarily align with their genitals. Transsexuals form a subgroup within this category but with a significant difference...they suffer from a type of gender dysphoria that compels them to want to actually transition into the opposite sex as opposed to simply emulating them the way we crossdressers do.

    Of course, there are many nuances and shades of grey here, but simply wanting to experiencing life as a woman is typically the preserve of the heterosexual crossdresser within the transgender umbrella, whereas it is the transsexual who actually wants to (usually physically) become a woman. In short, the transsexual takes the concept of "transgender" to the next level while the average transgender individual is content with the status quo once they get beyond the self-hate and accept their status as gender non-conforming.

  9. #9
    Member DianeT's Avatar
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    Leslie, I would tend to think that the ones closer to experience life as a woman would also be more the transsexuals than the crossdressers. It really depends on what you put behind this "experiencing life as a woman" expression. I think a crossdresser is only experiencing what he projects to a supposed woman experience, and I would hardly say life experience, more hand-picked bits of the experience. As for me, putting females clothes on "does not a girl make me experience".
    And to answer Gwen's question, I think every crossdresser is transgender as we blur some lines between masculinity and femininity.
    -- EDIT -- But since my wife educated me about gender studies, I don't believe much anymore in the transgender concept, since we are all on a continuum between male and female. Crossing genders means there are genders to begin with, and they are a social thing, not Nature's rules (Nature doesn't care much if we wear trousers or skirts).
    Last edited by DianeT; 11-30-2020 at 05:11 AM.

  10. #10
    Platinum Member Teresa's Avatar
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    Gwen.
    To me the outer layer shows the RW how I feel inside , I can't go round telling everyone I'm TG so my appearance says it all . I would also add that I feel that CDing isn't the right label when I go out full time because it's established my identity as Teresa .

    Leslie,
    You have a point , dealing with dysphoria is more to do with transition but as you say there are grey areas so i just stick to saying I'm TG if anyone asks , lets face it this question is only asked on the forum , it's a long time since I told anyone I'm TG because they don't ask .
    The real me , no going back.

  11. #11
    Member Brandi Christine's Avatar
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    Like Cassie Said
    Quote Originally Posted by Cassiek View Post
    Well put Geena. I love getting made up, dressed and feeling pretty. I also love being a man.
    But...

    There are definitely times I can see me doing the same things I enjoy as a man, as a woman...

    Circumstances keep me where I am, as a man, but were the choice mine... I guess that means I have crossed that line, maybe just a little.
    ...Damsel in distress.
    Not exactly natural, Stunning none the less...

    (As Girls Go by Suzanne Vega)

  12. #12
    Aspiring Member Georgina's Avatar
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    In my mind I don't need a label to dress.

  13. #13
    Aspiring Member Angela1954's Avatar
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    I wish I could point to a date; but for me it was, and is, an evolving situation. I do know a this point I am transgendered. Given my familial circumstances and age, 66, transition is not possible. I guess one way to look at it is if you feel like a woman even when not dressed that is a pretty good indication.

  14. #14
    Reality Check Krisi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geena75 View Post
    Strictly my own definition, mind you. I think a crossdresser is a person who gets enjoyment from dressing up and presenting themselves as the opposite gender, at the same time being certain of their own gender. i.e. a man who dresses up like a woman for fun, but always knows he is a man and is satisfied with that. Trans gender is someone who feels they are, or should be, a gender other than their birth gender. i.e. a man who dresses up like a woman because he feels that is an accurate reflection of his gender. The enjoyment is because he is presenting his true self. I suppose I would have crossed the line when I believe I actually am a woman, not a guy pretending to be a woman.
    That's pretty much what I was thinking as well.
    Krisi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geena75 View Post
    Strictly my own definition, mind you. I think a crossdresser is a person who gets enjoyment from dressing up and presenting themselves as the opposite gender, at the same time being certain of their own gender. i.e. a man who dresses up like a woman for fun, but always knows he is a man and is satisfied with that. Trans gender is someone who feels they are, or should be, a gender other than their birth gender. i.e. a man who dresses up like a woman because he feels that is an accurate reflection of his gender. The enjoyment is because he is presenting his true self. I suppose I would have crossed the line when I believe I actually am a woman, not a guy pretending to be a woman.
    Close . I dont think miads present as women but miads wear female clothes and are therefore are cross dressers. Just think about our very own celebrity miad.

  16. #16
    Junior Member JennyMay's Avatar
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    It seems to me that crossdresser and transgender are simply labels for social constructs which don?t have fixed meaning. They are fuzzy. You can?t impose hard boundaries and say one ends here, the other ends there. I don?t know why I crossdress. There is a strong sexual element to it, but am also convinced that I have a a strong feminine aspect to my being. I have never felt that I was a woman trapped in a male body, but I do wish I had been born female and believe that I would have fitted in more easily if I had been. Perhaps if I had been born later I would have transitioned but I?m in my sixties now, married with children, and I don?t think it would be fair. I wear clothes made for women almost all of the time but - apart from underwear - they look like male clothes on me. In some ways I wish I was more clearly transgender - I long to be a woman - but this big bulky body is never going to look anything but male.

  17. #17
    Aspiring Member GretchenM's Avatar
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    Geena's interpretation is very close to the technical definition of transgender. A transgender person is a person who self identifies, all of the time or part of the time, as being of the opposite gender from that which is expected based on their sexual identity. Obviously that definition contains a lot of gender binary thinking and thus not consistent with more modern concepts of gender differences that tend to minimize the gender binary and consider gender to be a pure spectrum or continuum with no divisions. In those concepts there are no lines to cross, there are no clearly defined genders, and gender is not fixed but is highly variable within each person depending on what is appropriate for the current social circumstances. So gender becomes a purely social and linguistic construct that allows us to talk about the subject but has no natural reality in that it is constantly variable not only in the population but also in the individual. That is, you have to call it something and have some kind of definition, otherwise there is no way to communicate about it, even though what you are talking about does not exist in the sense that you are talking about it. Very complicated, for sure, but it does prevent literal natural categories that forms a foundation for discrimination. Discrimination still happens, but it is harder to justify when one cannot find the divisions in the actual phenomena.

    The more modern concepts of gender are mainly based on brain functioning and behavior which always starts in the brain and is limited to some extent in each individual by behavioral genes in the genome that establish a foundation but nothing specific. Brain plasticity (the ability of the brain, so to speak, to rewire itself) plays a huge part in gender identity shifting between predominantly male-like to predominately female-like with the boundaries set by the behavior genes the person inherited. In these concepts transgender, transexual, crossdresser, etc. don't really exist but are just outward changes in a person's social expression and identity. Thus, all combinations are biologically valid, but only some are socially acceptable depending on the customs of the society.

  18. #18
    Aspiring Member MiraM's Avatar
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    I don't think one simply "becomes" Transgender, just as one does not simply walk into Mordor (except for Frodo). Being a Trans Woman or Trans Man is who you are, just like being Gay or Lesbian or Bi is who you are. It is not something you become. To me, if someone wears the clothes of the opposite gender than their sex assigned at birth but their gender identity is congruent with sex assigned at birth then they are not a Trans Woman or Trans Man (or to use the old terminology Transsexual), they are a cross dresser. If that person later realizes that he/she does identify as the opposite gender or no gender at all, or somewhere in between, they have not 'become' anything. It is a realization of their 'true' self for lack of a better term. And yes, there are Trans Women/Men that can live their entire life without transitioning for whatever reasons, just as there are Gay/Lesbian people who can suppress their sexual identity, with varying degrees of success. For a lot of people this works. When a person transitions or identifies as the opposite gender but does not transition, they are not becoming 'Transgender'. They are accepting who they have always been and doing what works for them to live their life.

    In the simplest of terms, for me at least, a person is Transgender(Transsexual) or they aren't. Simple as that. I didn't become a Trans Woman. It's not something I especially wanted to be or even want to be now. It's just a (not so) simple fact that it is who I have always been and For me I have to take the steps to live as that person and bring my secondary sex characteristics as close as possible to reflect my true gender.

  19. #19
    Total Dork GwenHerself's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiraM View Post
    I don't think one simply "becomes" Transgender, just as one does not simply walk into Mordor (except for Frodo).
    You are speaking my language.

  20. #20
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    IMHO cross dressing is a behavior. In contrast, being transgender is an identity. I am transgender whether or not I choose to wear women’s clothing.

  21. #21
    Gold Member Lana Mae's Avatar
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    The degree of Gender Dysphoria! Some have little to none-crossdressers and some have more-transgender(transexual)! This though is also a fuzzy line! You strive forward to fend off the discomfort of the dysphoria! Many do not even feel it! I am a pre-op transwoman! I would have the surgeries tomorrow but can not afford them! I deal with the dysphoria that causes too often! Just my $0.02!! Hugs Lana Mae
    Life is worth living!
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  22. #22
    Senior Member Jean 103's Avatar
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    There is no line as they are one in the same , kinda, as a CD is a TG. I started a similar post a while back about, when did I lose my membership card.

    The question is there a point when you are nolonger just a CD?

    The answer is acceptance and knowledge.

    Or a better question, is does this threaten yourself image?

    And is there ever a point in which a man in a dress is just that?

    Finally some have a need for a line. You can see it every time they launch into narrowing the definitions of words

  23. #23
    There's that smile! CarlaWestin's Avatar
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    In casual conversation I mentioned to my DADT wife that I was transgender. She replied, "No you're not. You're a crossdresser."
    No line blurred there.
    I've waited so long for this time. Makeup is so frustrating. Shaking hands and I look so old. This was a mistake.
    My new maid's outfit is cute. Sure fits tight.
    And then I step into the bedroom and in the mirror, I see a beautiful woman looking back at me.
    Smile, Honey! You look fabulous!

  24. #24
    Exploring NEPA now Cheryl T's Avatar
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    Wow...there's a Line? Why haven't I been able to see it?

    Wish it were that simple, I really do.
    There are days when I feel it's miles away and days when I think it's so far behind me.
    Wear what makes you feel Confident !

  25. #25
    Platinum Member Teresa's Avatar
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    Carla,
    I had that comment from my wife she used it more as a put down .

    Cherly,
    I see it more as hurdles , we clear one and then have to consider the next , when I view that way I find I don't take many steps back .
    The real me , no going back.

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