Any passing tips

[Adam]

well i have been liveing as male for some time now with the help of underworks compreshion vests but i am still most of the time read as female i think this is because i have a very female face so my question is does anyone have any tips on how to make my face look more male as its getting me down thanks

[CaptLex]

well i have been liveing as male for some time now with the help of underworks compreshion vests but i am still most of the time read as female i think this is because i have a very female face so my question is does anyone have any tips on how to make my face look more male as its getting me down thanks

I have the same problem, Adam. Even before I open my mouth, even if my chest is not visible and even with my masculine mannerisms, my feminine face gives me away and I get called "ma'am" or "miss". I think the only solution for me might be facial hair - and even then I'm afraid I'd be considered a hairy female.

[Julie Avery]

I would like to put a quick note here from an mtf point of view. Some like me on my side of the fence look with great longing at the idea of passing, but know pretty well that we never will.

For my own part, I would like to progress from being a biological male who wants to pass as a woman [unrealistic, in my case], to being a biological male who wants to be feminine and to be seen and related to as such [possibly attainable in some contexts - and the most important context is the context of intimacy, by which I mean boyfriend, girlfriend, or spouse].

Best wishes, fella.

[Deborah757]

Without a picture its hard to say if lack of facial hair is the issue. In my experience in the Army, lacking any obvious visual cues, the real discriminator is vocal intonation. I don't mean how deep you voice is, but simply how you talk.

Also, if you are short and slightly built certain assumptions are made at the start. Much the same problem as we MTF have in being tall and heavily built.

Life is not fair.

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

Another view from across the fence -- getting read happens, even to post-op MTF TSs.

Obviously physical features can be a giveaway, but I'm willing to bet it may be body language and mannerisms. If you haven't done so, read Norah Vincent's "Self-Made Man," which chronicles the writer's 18 months of posing as a man.

Vincent has a body you guys would probably kill for (5'10", size 11 feet, reasonably deep voice), so she did have some advantages, but she found that over time her mannerisms became so masculine that she ended up skipping most of the things she'd done to make herself look like a man and people didn't read her.

That said, people invariably thought she was a gay man, because she came across as effeminate (which shocked her, since she considered herself pretty butch). A lot of it was that she didn't know "The Rules" for guy-hood -- all the unconscious stuff we learn growing up. So she did things like referring to another guy as "cute" -- which literally stopped conversation.

It is hard because it involves all sorts of things you usually never think about. It's the same kind of issue we MTFs face in learning "femininity as a second language" (as Fecility Huffman put it). As far as body language and vocal patterns, you might take a look at MTF tutorials on it, and do the opposite. The short tutorial on speaking is that men typically speak in a monotone and use volume for emphasis -- which it the opposite of how women typically talk. Men are also far less spontaneous -- that was a major lesson Vincent learned. As far as the style of talking, take a look at linguist Deborah Tannen's "You Just Don't Understand: Men and Women in Conversation" for insights on the different "meta-language" men and women typically use.

If you are convinced it's your face, it a couple of things.

First off -- facial hair. Men don't have the downy kind of facial hair that women do, so get out those razors guys.

Second, there are differences in the facial structure of males and females (hence FFS). You might not like this suggestion, but some make-up might help to do a little contouring. MAC's Harmony blush is a good neutral that's subtle -- I use it for contouring myself. I'm not sure if there's any tutorials on FTM facial contouring, but you could try looking at some of the MTF tutorials and do the opposite.

[Zelda Noe]

Hi Adam

Outside of using the male hormone Testosterone, I'd wear male orientated wigs, and take speech therapy lessons from a qualified Speech Therapist.

As already mentioned...voice...and body mannerisms...are the big factor in you being passable as male. No different than us cd's/ts's seeking to be passable as women, needing the exact opposite.

One BIG factor: If you do choose to use the male hormone Testosterone...it will permantly change your vocal pitch to that of a male...no going back...that change cannot be reversed I've read. Bodily sexual secondary characteristics can be reversed, (like hair) unless you have permanent breast masectomy, or SRS, which for you would be a HUGE personal decision.

I hope you are at peace with whatever personal decisions you make for your life.

Sincerely, Dandy

[Kieron Andrew]

Another view from across the fence -- getting read happens, even to post-op MTF TSs.

Obviously physical features can be a giveaway, but I'm willing to bet it may be body language and mannerisms. If you haven't done so, read Norah Vincent's "Self-Made Man," which chronicles the writer's 18 months of posing as a man.

Vincent has a body you guys would probably kill for (5'10", size 11 feet, reasonably deep voice), so she did have some advantages, but she found that over time her mannerisms became so masculine that she ended up skipping most of the things she'd done to make herself look like a man and people didn't read her.

That said, people invariably thought she was a gay man, because she came across as effeminate (which shocked her, since she considered herself pretty butch). A lot of it was that she didn't know "The Rules" for guy-hood -- all the unconscious stuff we learn growing up. So she did things like referring to another guy as "cute" -- which literally stopped conversation.

It is hard because it involves all sorts of things you usually never think about. It's the same kind of issue we MTFs face in learning "femininity as a second language" (as Fecility Huffman put it). As far as body language and vocal patterns, you might take a look at MTF tutorials on it, and do the opposite. The short tutorial on speaking is that men typically speak in a monotone and use volume for emphasis -- which it the opposite of how women typically talk. Men are also far less spontaneous -- that was a major lesson Vincent learned. As far as the style of talking, take a look at linguist Deborah Tannen's "You Just Don't Understand: Men and Women in Conversation" for insights on the different "meta-language" men and women typically use.

If you are convinced it's your face, it a couple of things.

First off -- facial hair. Men don't have the downy kind of facial that women do, so get out those razors guys.

Second, there are differences in the facial structure of males and females (hence FFS). You might not like this suggestion, but some make-up might help to do a little contouring. MAC's Harmony blush is a good neutral that's subtle -- I use it for contouring myself. I'm not sure if there's any tutorials on FTM facial contouring, but you could try looking at some of the MTF tutorials and do the opposite.

wow Marlena thanks so much for this informative post