I socialize much better presenting as female than as a short androgynous guy.
I socialize much better presenting as female than as a short androgynous guy.
Those of us of "a certain age" have a lot of baggage from the times we lived through, some more than others, of course. I managed, fairly well, but I can say, with near certainty, that had I been able to come to grips with my gender identity earlier, my life would have turned out even better. Decades of guilt and internalized transphobia surely robbed me of a lot. Sadly, research in this area is only now starting to gain momentum, but going forward, we should be able to see the effects of greater acceptance, enabling/encouraging young people to transition earlier. Yes, I said encouraging. That's not grooming, not indoctrination. It is acceptance, of a kind that those of us of that certain age, never had. We've always been here, and we always will be.Originally Posted by CrossKimmy
Calling bigotry an "opinion" is like calling arsenic a "flavor".
A word about the hiding vs lying. I sure felt (and still feel) that way. Hiding, not lying. Except a few years back, I always thought that I would take my secret to the grave, that the revelation would be so hurtful and damaging that there was really no other way. I don't think GGs, my wife included, can really understand that. Everytime we had a debate on this, privately or on the forums with other GGs, there was a great chasm of misunderstanding between us and we eventually had to agree to disagree, since no side could convince the other. The reason is that both GGs and CDers feel it differently, and both feel it in their guts. Each side has their own truth, and these truths are equally valid.
I believe in positivism in science, which means I don't believe in truths, but in models. If the models makes useful predictions, then it is valid (until a better model makes better predictions and eventually replaces it).
I found two rules in my interactions with GGs (including the one who shares my life) that work well with the hiding:
- Hiding is equivalent to lying
- Lying about CDing is equivalent to cheating
The two statements above will make many CDers cringe. But consider them as models. They make good predictions about how a GG can feel about the hiding. The first one was repeatedly stated by GGs here on many occasions, so I invented nothing and just took good note of it. I devised the second one after realizing, thanks to many discussions with my wife, that the effects of hiding my CDing had caused damages to her and our couple very akin to what an affair would have.
For this reason I try to use the term lying (rather than hiding) when discussing in these forums, not because I actually feel that way in my guts, but because it is the way GGs do. It allowed useful discussions instead of endless debates about terminology, and I never looked back.
I'm not going to get into it with you over the "encouraging". We've all weighed in on that debate in other threads.
I wonder how I would have parented differently today vs. 30ish years ago. I've said before that I encouraged my boys to grow their hair long. I don't think I ever said "Please grow your hair out" but it was pretty close to that. Part of it was it would have deflected some attention away from my own hair. They did grow their nails very long, which I was less enthusiastic about and their mother hated. I'm pretty sure if they'd wanted to wear makeup or dresses I would have allowed it kind of in the same way I did it, away from the eyes of friends and family. I don't see how I could have been any other way. I can't see a way beyond that, because I never personally did it to where I was out to everyone everywhere. If they did that on their own as an adult I'd be a huge supporter and very happy for them. If they didn't, I'd also be a huge supporter and very happy for them. Hopefully there wouldn't be some indelible track of their past online that they couldn't escape.
I saw another boy in a dress earlier this week. Just a dress. No makeup, heels, etc. I'd guess him to be about 5th grade. He was out with his mom and sister (presumably). Makes me wonder if this will be the year when a lot of boys come back from summer break as girls, or at least wearing girl's clothes. I guess it's happening already, but I'm so far removed from it that I don't know it.
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Diane,
Not going to lie (see there!), I have a big problem with both of those statements. I'm not even saying you're wrong, but I certainly hope you are. The chasm part is certainly accurate. The debate, if you want to call it that, between Miel and me has brought that home to me in a big way (as someone who's already rounded home several times). But, if we keep whacking at it and doing so respectfully, even if we don't resolve anything maybe somebody will glean something from it. I cannot disagree more strongly though about the hiding=lying and cding=cheating. I need another blood pressure pill after that one! There is a long string of derogatory terms that wouldn't phase me in the least, but cheater.... uhh, no. Might be my only redeeming quality.
I hope you don't get me wrong. My point is that I totally get what you're saying (and I can see how much it tears you apart), and I share your feelings about the hiding vs lying thing because this is how I felt it in my guts at the time, but now that I saw both sides I can't go on ignoring GGs feelings (and especially my wife's) about it. Again, there is absolutely no judgment on my part, but my empathy now goes both ways, not just yours and mine, but GG's too. To give you an idea how this topic is upsetting for GGs, I can tell you that my wife is already concerned about what I wrote in my previous post and asking me questions. She always listened to my answers, but they don't make sense to her, because, well, to be honest, some stuff doesn't make sense, and hurts my wife's logic. What I feel about it isn't rational, and doesn't resist scrutiny. But it is how I felt then.
I'm not taking it wrong. I think I tend to be among the more sympathetic to all the GG's. I also agree that this is all illogical. On one hand I can easily see that this thing we do is disturbing to wives/SOs. I get that. I REALLY get that. I can think of worse terms than "disturbing" and I'm sure everybody else can too. I also get that it must be hard for someone to wrap their head around that this is a real thing. Not something done on a whim, not as a lark... you get it. Illogical? You bet.
I'm going to do an inadequate job of making my point here, but it's all I've got right now. My views, feelings, and my basic ability to defend any of this is highly affected by the fact that I've done this my entire life. In spite of this(?) I'm a good person by anybody's standards. I'm not going to go through the list of how/why I'm a good person. I'm like every other good person you know. I'm proud of that! That's who I am! What infuriates me is that that does not matter when it comes to some people's opinion of me. I've said on here a million times that I took it too far. That's not even debatable. I was wrong in letting it get way out of hand for a very long time. Guilty. At the root of it, though, there may be no acceptable amount. I think (cut me some slack. I'm not a GG, so I can't state as absolute fact) that a wife's or SO's reaction, while all gut-level, is a mixture of some personal intense turn off, part fear and shame at the thought of others finding out and the yuck-factor transferring to what people will think about her, part economic... I did a stream-of-consciousness list of all the reasons we don't tell (lie?). A lot of those things are wrapped up in a GGs reaction too (I presume).
My gut level illogical reasons for doing it? In spite of my keen awareness that most everybody thinks I'm doing something "wrong", I LOVE it! Not in some giddy schoolgirl way. It feel like it's something that just nourishes me. I know full well how weird that sounds/is. It ebbs and flows, and sometimes emphasizes one thing over the other, which is not a conscious decision. That "feel good" moving target that's swimming around in my brain? I can remember specific moments/actions that hit that bullseye dead center. Like some drug, it makes me want to experience that again. That swimming thing is always there, always being shot at, and lots of shots land somewhere on target, but then every now and then something hits that bullseye. Simple things, typically. Quick example... About 20 years ago I was doing this on a frequent, determined, and high level. My hair was longer than bra strap length. That in itself is a "thing", because it's always there and it's feminizing all the time regardless of mode. We had gone to a Christmas party at some friend's house. As we were leaving, the female host helped me get my coat on, then pulled my hair from under my coat and smoothed it down my back. Weird that that did anything for me? Yep. It wasn't sexual. To me it felt like acknowledgement and acceptance. Bullseye. I'm fully aware that that makes NO sense at all. Besides hair, there is a long list of other "things". I loved my long nails. Obsessed, nearly, with perfect nails (that my wife hated) that I was strongly compelled to have, but was at the same time somewhat, in some situations, embarrassed by or even ashamed of. The real "feel good" part of having them was going to the nail salon once a month or so (just about every time I went out of town) and having them done. I love nail polish, the process, the results. The payoff was worth the shame and embarrassment.
It's not the list of things, really. Everybody has theirs. I was damn lucky to be able to "express myself" (hate that term, but it seems to work) all the time at the level I was. Fact, that the more I "expressed myself" the less attractive I became to my wife. I get that. She didn't marry a woman and all that. Attraction is what it is. Frankly, I could have dealt with the physical appearance/attraction thing. I wouldn't have liked it, but I could have modified some or all of that. I think it's deeper than that, though. I could change the way I looked, but underneath I'm still this warped, perverted, sick, mentally ill creature. THAT'S what really gets me. Remember the "good person" thing? Doesn't matter. Let that sink in. It doesn't matter! It used to matter. That's ALL that mattered. But now you are something so repugnant that she can no longer see the good person.
I told Miel a while back that I just don't see anything "wrong" with it. Simple statement, but that pretty well sums it up. To me, just as illogical as me doing it are the vitriolic reactions to it. I mean, we're not talking about some immoral act here. I know some people are really set off by it, but my opinion is that those who are seriously set off by it are harboring some things of their own (Not talking about the wives. They're intimately invested.). Boiling it down to it's simplest terms, what is this vile thing that blows up families and undermines long term loving relationships and causes such widespread hysteria? The fact that I wear dresses and high heels? Ummm, as much as I'd like to just leave it there for effect, no. At least not all of it. It's the fact that I want to, deep down. It's those things that are swimming around in your head or mine when we do it, or even when we don't. The swimming thing is still there. There must be something wrong with a man who would enthusiastically emasculate himself, right? A normal, mentally stable man would never even think about wearing a dress, much less some of the other stuff we do, right? Only a perverted mind. A degenerate. So you stop dressing altogether. Doesn't matter. It's that thing in your head that's the real problem, and it's still there whether it's being shot at or not.
So, the cheating thing you mentioned. Touchy subject for me. Oh, I get that it's selfish. Boy do I ever. That's a fault for me and I can't escape that. Guilty, again. I even get that it can look like cheating because of the "other woman" in the relationship. Again, I'm going to butcher this, but I'll give it a shot. Speaking from my own experience here. I may look like two different people, but I'm one person, and I have one heart. I love this thing I do but I love(d) one woman, and that was my wife. That "person" that she found so ultimately vile and disgusting, loved her and only her. I get that it often looked like I was totally committed to and head over heels with this "mistress". I get that I was wrapped up in it and I can't deny the fact that "she" was a powerful distraction. Too powerful. That was wrong, and it should have been addressed. I was pretty far gone. I remember it well. I also know that in no way did this thing I do ever replace her. Not even close. Crazy as it must sound. I ALWAYS thought I loved her on a level that a "normal" person would never know or achieve. More, not less. Cheating? Frankly, I'm offended at the suggestion. I would know if it was and I hope you all know me well enough to know I'd admit it. I don't have anything to protect on this forum. Might be equivalent to cheating for somebody, but it wasn't for me and I don't think it's even close to the norm.
Before I step down off my soapbox, one more thing. I said earlier that I see nothing wrong with it. I think at first blush that seems like I'm hedging the truth. I mean, all "normal" people clearly see that there's something wrong with it! It's just not done! It's not socially acceptable... and on and on. There's that chasm again. Just because I don't see anything wrong with it doesn't mean that I don't recognize all those things. I can only tell you that my brain is missing that connection. Maybe it came unplugged somewhere along the way, or I unplugged it as a defense mechanism, but I can tell you I actually see nothing wrong with it. As I said before, if it were my son I'd cringe and advise against being "out" at school, work, or whatever, but there's no way I would prevent him from experiencing something I know is pleasurable in so many ways (I'm not talking sexually), and I'd hope like hell he could avoid the pitfalls. I'm not in favor of early transition. I'm completely in favor of early experimentation. I think if a boy has any inclination in that direction, get on with it, and get on with it in a big way and find out who/what you are before you become intwined in other people's lives. I'd certainly never teach that it's wrong. I actually thing that if a boy is allowed to experience a bit of life as a girl, it might make him a better man. I think it did me.
Well, got that off my chest. For anybody who made it all the way through that one, bless your heart! I don't even have it in me to proofread that one.
I look forward to crossdressing. It provides a wonderful vacation from my every day life. I started all this later in life other than trying on clothes when young. When my interest went ballistic I had to try so many looks I guess to find myself. I only share this with people who need to know. My wife who was stunned at first but has accepted it as part of what makes me Happy and she has said, "I should be happy". And other tgirl friends I have met as we share this interest and so wonderful to have friends who you can share stories and interests with. I go out once a month or so with Tgirl friends for dinner and some Tgirl events. it is always part of me on the inside and something I always love expressing on the outside when I can. For those around me that do not know I do not know many things about them. So being part time it works. Clearly if I transitioned that would change everything, but no plans at this point. I have many friends who have transitioned over the years some I remain in close contact with. Some really surprised me when they did. I find my friends that have transitioned had struggled through the years and transitioning really saved many and they now love who they are as a whole person. l struggled with issues growing up and can tie some of it to my desire to look like a girl/woman but now that I have allowed myself this in CDing and as important my wonderful wife accepts this so no hiding from those that need to know I have found my level of happiness. I do not see that changing but never say never.
Exactly ! Coming out to a wife/SO must goes much farther than "Now I?m going to start teaching you what I want you to know", there must be an effort for more transparency. It is about telling the truth about your "true self" and giving details about what you are already doing and where you intend to go (as far as you know it). Not doing that is willingly manipulating your wife/SO : she cannot make her own educated decisions about the relationship she?s involved in and the CD can still "hide" some facets of his CDing. In any case it is bad communication and will lead to arguments and sadness. Just put your feet in her shoes (no pun) : can you really keep saying you and your wife/SO have an agreement on boundaries if both partners aren't on the same level of information ?
About lying/cheating : lying isn't cheating but lying about CDing may have the same consequences on the wife's mind and the couple relationship. Because by committing with him the wife/SO puts trust in the hands of her husband, believes she is the person who knows him the best, believes she is her confident and her best friend, cannot imagine him hiding a defining part of who he really is... He is not really having an affair but it is about him having a double life from which she was evicted. The wife feels betrayed, if you know what I mean. No one likes to feel fooled.
Again, you are not a bad person for being a CDer. But some took a bad decision when hiding the CDing. Don't you think that, according to the importance and true meaning of CDing for CDs, the wife's reaction are proportionate ? And yes, there is a chance that the more she loves you and believed she knew you intimately, the more she will badly react to the reveal, because of the treason feeling. But it is also because she loves you that she will try to adapt and stay with you.
You are not only a CDer. But CDing is a defining feature of who you deeply are.
And sometimes after the reveal CDing takes so much place in the relationship (materially and symbolically) that the wife cannot longer stay, despite the fact that you have been a good person otherwise.
(I wrote that before I saw your last post. I can see you loved your wife very much)
Great thread Rhonda. No one shares all there secrets with any one. We do are best but the status quo is what most seek and except. Life is full of if's but's and maybe's. We just have to each make our choices and take our paths. I desperately felt I was a women in my formative years. I took hormones for a short time. Then I met my rock, married her, hid my female side from her. Of course she found out. We experimented work and family became my priorities and the adolescent me was far gone.
I'm now retired kids grown up. We long since moved to DADT. The pure contentment of dressing and being closer to my whole self, will always be there. But there has been, is and always will be so much more to life.
"Proportionate." Good point. We (I) can't say on one hand that it's intrinsically important, then claim on the other hand that it's not a big deal. It's easier for me to understand it if I think of it in the way I protected the secret. I mean, if there's nothing to it, then why did I feel like I had to hide it from work, friends, some family?
I'm sure it seems like I'm rehashing my own situation. Not really. I really have moved on. Yes, some of the circumstances will always bug me, but for the most part I put this stuff out there for illustrative purposes. I do attempt to understand the "other side" better.
Personally, more and more I see this as part of my past. I've been out a lot over the past few months trying to reignite some of the old flame, if that makes any sense. I don't know how much longer I'm going to do that. It seems like no matter how great the outing or the venue, I come home wondering if it was worth the effort, time, and money. I'm not depressed over it, I just wish I could get it back. Kind of like I wish I had my youth back. I'll never give it up entirely (I don't think), but I spend more time wondering what the hell I'm doing rather than feeling whatever that immersive, exciting, soothing, right-with-the-world thing it used to give me.
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