Is neurodivergence a factor?

[Bea_]

I struggled all the way through public school back in the sixties and seventies. I graduated at the bottom quarter of my class and came close to not graduating at all. It was in the late seventies or early eighties that adult attention deficit disorder ADD first came into mainstream consciousness. As soon as I heard the symptoms, I knew that the condition fit me. It was in the late nineties that I finally got officially tested and scored as close to 100% on the scale as possible (99+%) for ADD/non-hyperactive. The term neurodivergent didn't come into common usage until later and includes ADD/Autism/Asperger's Syndrome and others.

I'm no expert but I'm well aware that my attention deficit disorder has made it hard to connect to people and also creates a situation where I tend to just see things differently from most people. I did a couple of self-assessments for autism and ruled it out fairly quickly but I also seem to have some mild autistic traits. Neurodivergence, and autism spectrum traits specifically, seems to coincide statistically with gender dysphoria.

I feel like my neurodivergence is very much a factor in my inability to conform to societal norms without considerable stress and even some depression. I am wondering how prevalent neurodivergence might be here on the forum and whether individuals have been tested verified on one of the neurodivergent spectrums.

[Maid_Marion]

My wife was sure I was autistic and thought I ought to spend $1500 for an official diagnosis.

I've since discovered that my social difficulties were the result of being transgender and "male failing" as my male presentation fell into the uncanny valley between male and female. The socialization issues were actually on the other end, as folks struggled to deal with gender. They would look for visual clues and get even more confused!
I find that I socialize easily by presenting female, so my appearance matches my mannerisms and voice.

[Samantha51]

Bea: an interesting question! I was diagnosed with inattentive ADHD 2 years ago aged 55. I too ruled out autism fairly quickly. The various ADHD meds however haven't made any difference. I tried Elvanse and Concerta at various doses before giving up with them as I paid for it all myself. I doubt my diagnosis sometimes. Like you ADHD/ADD wasn't a thing when I was growing up and I had a strong mother who gave me massive stucture and rules so I was able to function reasonably - I think my structured upbringing helped me mask the ADHD and be ok with adult life until the last few years. I've experienced depression and sought to unprogram myself throughout my adult life. COVID lockdowns accelerated this. I am easily bored and struggle somewhat in social situations to make connections. I'd describe myself as "intelligent and creative with potential but can't keep his ducks in a row long enough to make good use of it all".

Marion: I ruled out autism soon after ADHD DX though I've not had it officially tested. I am currently wondering about transgender. I have a poor memory but there was a teen phase when I wanted (in some fashion) to be a woman. I now sometimes feel this way again, before social conditioning/feeling ridiculous thinking it in public kicks back in. Sometimes feeling I wish was born a girl but accepting I'm actually male. Something I'm trying to recollect at this very moment! I have felt gender EUPHORIA when I put an outfit on - it was a very striking strong response, but I don't feel gender DYSPHORIA - I'm happy enough with my male body. I've stopped wearing my wife's clothes following advice here and don't have my own outfits to follow this rabbit hole.

[rachellegsep]

My son was diagnosed from an early age as being ADHD. Luckily with the correct medication he went from the bottom of the class to an A student with Honors degrees in 2 fields and busy with Masters degrees. I did the test when he was diagnosed and found I was a high scoring ADD, which explains a lot as I was thought just to have been a naughty child. Looking back I have come to realise my late Father must have also been ADD. It is thought to be highly genetic and runs in families and is caused by a lack of the neurotransmitter Dopamine in the brain. We are chemically wired to seek out more when our levels are low, which why we get the urge to eat items containing sugar and carbs. This makes weight loss difficult. Exercise can help along with rather eating smaller healthier snacks than larger meals to keep the levels more constant. All of this may partially explain why I was a chubby child and why dressing may have such a calming, stress relieving effect in my life.

[GretchenM]

Although neurodivergence is not a medical term but a popular blanket term that includes a number of behavior patterns in the autism spectrum, I can certainly see how thinking differently could result in a tendency to shift toward a gender variant behavior pattern. Gender variance is now thought to be a normal condition where the neural networks that regulate gender behavior are configured in such a way as to emphasize and favor the opposite gender traits and characteristics. As these neural networks are not fixed but constantly changing according to experiences it is certainly conceivable that having brain functions aligned with the various conditions in the autism spectrum could create a gender reversed bias in the gender controlling neural networks. Thus, in a male the female-like gender traits and characteristics just seem to fit better in the experience of the individual who exhibits gender variance to some degree. However, this is just hypothetical as I am not aware of any research on this specific subject. It is well known that autism and the various types of transgenderism seem to be mildly correlated. But correlation does not imply causation, so until a functional causal link is found it remains as just a tendency and maybe some kind of predisposition generated by the fact the person perceives and reacts to the world differently than most people. An interesting subject indeed. And, IMO there are some good responses to your post, Bea. Maybe no answers but certainly very good considerations. Something to think about.

[Helen_Highwater]

As Gretchen says, there's no empirical proof of a causal link and I'd be inclined to suggest that it's a bit like associating being Gay and dressing. From responses here it seems like the proportion of Gay dressers is similar to the proportion of Gays found in the wider muggle community.

What's also been noticeable to me is the proportion of children getting a diagnosis of ADHD and ADD in recent years while at the same time the focus on allergen induced behavioural problems seems to have died away. We had one of our kids who would be so badly behaved, uncontrollably so that I suspect today the diagnosis could be ADHD. What alerted us to it being something different was the accompanying nightmares that led us to drill down and link the behaviour to a red colourant in widespread use is foodstuffs. Our experience led friends who also had a "naughty child" to do the same and they too found it was linked to a different additive commonly found in soft drinks. Remove the additive, total change in behaviour. Given the level of additives we now get in things commonly found in foodstuffs we all consume I do wonder if some of us are unwittingly being behaviourally poisoned.

As far as I know I sit nowhere on the autism spectrum but I too, as do many others here, like Rachell, report that "dressing may have such a calming, stress relieving effect". So I'd say we need to exercise caution when making possible causal links as to why we dress. Perhaps is better to learn to accept it's part of us and be thankful we get to experience such as enriching as it is.

[Deborah G]

I had never heard this term prior to this post. But, I too am always looking for answers for my behaviors. As someone once described me, "The whole world would be walking down the street one way and you would be walking the other way!" I took it as a compliment, as I take pride in being an individualist. The website I consulted (Cleveland Clinic) described neurodivergent as being "differently abled", but then gave a list of some behaviors that are typical; two of those traits I have displayed are excessive compulsive and social anxiety. For now, I'll follow Helen's advice and be thankful and enjoy!

[Maid_Marion]

In my case there seems to be some physical issues as well. My 24 inch waist is above my belly button and I have the rare hourglass figure. 32A-24-34. Only 8% of GGs have an hourglass figure. Of course I don't have a visible Adam's Apple!

[Gillian Gigs]

There is a problem within the American Psychiatric Community that revolves around them getting their name on a sickness, or syndrome. As a result some disorders have become 30 to 40 years behind other areas of the world. I have Asperger's syndrome, Asperger's material didn't get translated into English America until the end of the 70's. This syndrome was public information in Europe. Testing and studies were made in Vienna, in the late 30's well into the 50's. Go looking on the internet and you will find information, better yet, go to your local public library, and you will find all kinds of material to read. I'm not saying that gender dysphoria is a result of these syndromes, but there is a correlation that needs to be looked into. As a CD'er, I want to understand myself better, as well as also having Asperger's syndrome. For some of us knowledge helps us in accepting who we are.

Neurodiversity not a bad thing, unless you want to pigeon hole everyone into your particular group of 'holes' in the wall!

PS; Despite what the A P A thinks, it is not the end all, be all, who knows it all. They can learn much from finding out what is going on in the rest of the world.

[Bea_]

I am not asserting so much a causal association, but rather a common node or thread. My ADD has had a significant impact on how my life has gone and I'm only beginning to realize, at 68 years old, just how significant. Throughout my social and work life I have always had trouble connecting to others and ended up just feeling awkward in social settings. It seems like I never knew the rules that everyone else played by. So I have kept to myself to a big degree. While in a therapy session last year I was talking about my situation and how distant I'd always felt and that sometimes I felt like I was autistic. When her reaction was that she was wondering the same thing, I started researching a diagnosis. I found that the cost of a diagnosis was was high and the benefits of an official diagnosis was negligible, I just looked at the diagnostic criteria and found that, while I have a few traits common to autism, they didn't come near matching diagnostic criteria. Very different from my ADD diagnosis.

When I compare my mindset to my wife's and to other women in my life, I have a very definite male mindset. But, when I compare my mindset to most men that I have encountered over the last seven decades, my mindset is not as clearly "male". At sixty-eight years old, I have never had a single long term male friend. I think part of my being neurodivergent corresponds to my being genderdivergent which shows up very specifically in my sense of aesthetics. I have never thought that I was meant to be a woman, but I'm finding it harder and harder to accept the restrictions of being a gender conformant man. Certain events in my life have taken away any filter that would make conforming valuable to me. But the cost of not conforming is high, so I'm stuck in the middle for now, ranting here on the forum.

I do not think my ADD caused my genderdivergence. It came too late in my life to think that. I do think that my genderdivergence has had the effect of giving me a sense of peace and self-care that sooths some of hurt from decades of feeling alone. That's what makes it valuable enough to risk further isolation.

[Kitty Sue]

I was diagnosed with adult ADD in my later 30s. I am no 52. I certainly have a hard time connecting with people. I don't seem to fit in anywhere except AA. I even doubt I would fit with many of the members here if we were meeting face to face on a regular basis. On the surface I think I feel more at ease interacting with women, although I am not totally sure about this. Perhaps gay women, rather than straight women are who I feel most comfortable with overall.
In my case there is a lot to unpack, ADD, alcoholism, clinical depression, bi polar disorder and ptsd. Been diagnosed with all.

[Heather76]

Bea, in 2004 at age 59 I was diagnosed with ADD. I've been on methylphenidate ever since. It has solved the most troubling symptom of ADD for me which was impulsivity. What I used to react to in 3 seconds may now take me 3 hours, 3 days, 3 weeks, or even 3 years to react to. I have taken an autism screening test (self assessment) and I believe I do have autism to a degree. Some of the things that make me think I may has to do with the fact I don't stray away from certain routines. For example, I eat 2 or 3 of the same 5 items for breakfast most every day.. I don't eat a variety of foods either as I'm not at all adventurous when it comes to dining. I know what I like and I stick to those things. I don't try new foods at all. I have other repetitive habits and am somewhat OCD. My wife would say I'm very OCD.

With regard to friendship and social situations, I have no close friends other than my wife. I cannot recall the last time I was invited to do something with someone else unless it was with a couple where the lady was a friend of my wife. The one exception would be the 3 guys I play golf with will let me know if they are wanting to get together for lunch or dinner. I don't care at all for parties or gatherings where there might be 8 or 10 couples. I'm much more comfortable in 1 on 1 situations. Difficulty developing relationships is very prevalent among those with ADD/ADHD as we tend not to pick up on social clues. I definitely find it easier to talk with women than with men. I don't think that's an ADD issue so much as it is a common interest issue. While I used to watch every sporting event on TV, over the years I got away from watching sports other than golf. I'm so far away from sports, I've no idea the name of any MLB player, I know the name of 1 NBA player but not the team he plays for, and I know the names of 3 NFL players but only 1 can I name the team he plays for. I've no idea who has played in the World Series or the Super Bowl the past 20 years. I have never hunted. I used to fish a lot; but stopped that when I started playing golf at age 49. Since most guys are into sports, those conversations leave me in the dark. At family gatherings, I'm talking with the women while the men are watching a sporting event in the other room.

I was a terrible student; but, I did graduate in the top 25% of my class of 420 students. I hated college as I didn't develop good study habits in hs. I like to say (seriously) I may have averaged about 2 minutes/day doing homework in high school.. I was lucky that I was able to handle most classwork somewhat easily. After I got out of the military at age 24, I held 12 different jobs in the 38 years before I retired. One of those jobs I had for 16 years. That means the other 11 jobs were an average of 2 years each. I've had over 20 different residences in the past 54 years. We are on our 3rd home since 1994 which means I've lived in 17+ homes/apartments in the previous 24 years. Those job and residences numbers are quite indicative of ADD. While getting diagnosed at age 59 can't change those things, it was a relief to have so much of it put in perspective.

[Lisa Gerrie]

Neurodivergence, and autism spectrum traits specifically, seems to coincide statistically with gender dysphoria.

Bea, thanks for posting. I'm very science-oriented and always skeptical about reported correlations between gender and (whatever), but I did some reading and it does look there's solid evidence for that. Fascinating. Are you aware of any other co-incident conditions that have been identified?

You're right about causation, and it bears repeating. What is being reported is two conditions that sometimes occur together, at least to a degree that rules out random chance. But does A cause B, or does B cause A, or does C cause both A and B...? How many different things can cause A?

[Bea_]

Are you aware of any other co-incident conditions that have been identified?

I did the research for myself based on other social issues that I've dealt with my whole life and found bits and pieces of gender related co-incidences. When I watched some videos from a couple of autistic vloggers I found that I did share certain traits but on a much smaller scale than would meet a diagnosis. Once I ruled out autism for myself I moved on. I think that ADD/ADHD covers such a broader spectrum that any links to gender issues would be harder to correlate. But, I do think that the same mechanisms that have caused me stress over my lifetime have a commonality with my gender divergence. I do not think any dysphoria that I suffer is truly gender dysphoria but then I'll add that my gender divergence magnifies some of the general dysphoria. I brought up the issue here to see if anyone else had similar experiences.

[April Rose]

I have been formally diagnosed with both gender dysphoria and ADHD(inattentive). ADHD runs in my family, I don't know of any family member with gender dysphoria.

[Jessica G.]

I'm 31 and I have known in my adult years that I most likely have ADHD. Growing up I had a very small friend circle. Most of the time it felt like I had to insert myself in friend groups rather then people generally wanting to be my friend. Throughout elementary I was a big problem in school. I always acted up, couldn't keep still or focus sometimes. So much to the point in 4th grade my teacher isolated me in the back of the class room with my desk turned backwards... My mom did not put up with this and I was transferred to another class.

In 3rd grade my teacher had to creat a reward system for me so that I would not act up. I would get points that I can use to get a reward at the end of the week like pencils, clipboard, etc. No one else had this but me... She had told my mom on a few occasions that I may have ADHD. My mom did not give into it as no parent wants there to be anything wrong with there child and I get that, but it all makes perfect sense years later. This happened all throughout middle school 8th graded being the worst year I was landed in the principles office so much I was one more visit away from expulsion.

It was not until high school that I turned around and it was because of the Air Force ROTC class I took. It taught me structure and discipline and my rambunctious behavior was toned down a little.
I had plans to join the USAF but was underweight and could not put on the 10 pounds I needed after trying for 2 years, I found a decent job and the USAF dream faded away.

Throughout my 20s and still early thirties, I know that there is still an issue with concentration, anxiousness, etc. Last year was not a good year for me as most of it dealt with depression. Something I never had until the last 3-4 years. Obviously Covid had an effect on a lot of people, but something else was causing this and I was tired of it.

I started to see a therapist early last year and still do every 2 weeks. I asked her in November if I put off signs or ADHD. She said that I do have those traits but can't formally diagnose me.
I then saw a psychiatrist and took all of there assessment questionnaires and without a surprise I scored almost the max on the ADHD one.
This is nothing I am ashamed of but its good to finally accept it and have started bupropion to help with depression but it also is used to help with ADHD. I can say there has been a big noticeable change for the good in the past few weeks.

I do however wonder if it has any effect on how I feel since I started to CD 2 1/2 years now. In the beginning it started out small, and gradually increased fast but I always wanted to make sure I did not step to far to upset my wife. To this day that is still not an issue. As I began dressing day to day, I began to tell her that this is more than just dressing. The feeling I get when I am in women's clothing and trying to present fully as a woman feels so right. I am primarily a heterosexual male, but that is not to say there are never curiosities.
I don't know what my situation would be classified as. I don't think I am gender dysphoric as I do not hate my male parts and body entirely, but I do wish I had feminine characteristics such as breasts, hair and figure.

[MarinaTwelve200]

I would say it is a factor in certain KINDS of crossdressing. As we know, or should know, there are many DIFFERENT reasons men cross-dress. It happens in Homosexuality and transsexualism. No doubt other syndromes and conditions lead to cross dressing as well. These conditions give us different drives and urges, and cross dressing is often one optional act those afflicted use as a vehicle to achieve their objectives and seek comfort.

But the issues dealt with us garden variety 'Transvestites" or otherwise "straight" "Crossdressers" are not as deeply seated as in the other conditions. We simply find CDing as a way to "relax" and de-stress, or as some "kinky" turn on associated with erotic pleasure. DEEPER issues where men might cross dress often have their own mental condition names and motivations. Homosexuality, Gender dysphoria, etc. along with some forms of "Neurodivergence" is a "Whole 'nother ball game", even though they may also cross dress (the verb) it is not the same kind of cross dressing as with a "Transvestite"/CD who may only simply have a fetish or a way to 'have fun" rather than a full blown "mental/Psychological issues" in the background.

[jacques]

Hello Bea,
I have wondered about that myself.
Also - Right brain dominance is associated with dyslexia, being left handed (or cross-lateral), lateral thinking, imagination, creativity ... and perhaps femininity.
luv J

[mbmeen12]

I wonder if this is discussed at Gender studies courses? I too had a learning disability and it was found in highschool. Retention Disorder, things that make you go hmmmm????

[Deborah G]

This post has been enlightening! I did not realize so much research has been done until I did some reading this week. In my case, I recall being forced to become right handed at an early age, even though my tendency was to be left hand dominant. Today, I am essentially ambidextrous, but it never occurred to me that left handedness, as well as 2D:4D (second digit, fourth digit ratio of length) could also be indicators of GD. As I said previously for my case, I don't know that I will change anything, but it sure is nice to have a better understanding of how I got here.

[Bea_]

Most of the time it felt like I had to insert myself in friend groups rather then people generally wanting to be my friend.

I can relate totally to this.

---

This is nothing I am ashamed of but its good to finally accept it and have started bupropion to help with depression but it also is used to help with ADHD. I can say there has been a big noticeable change for the good in the past few weeks.

I agree that there's nothing to be ashamed of. Oddly, there's something about having the diagnosis that somehow makes me feel more special, but not in an arrogant way. It just gives me more peace about who I am.

I was taking bupropion for a bit but did not see much difference in any way. I'm glad it seems to be helping you.

- - -

This post has been enlightening! I did not realize so much research has been done until I did some reading this week. In my case, I recall being forced to become right handed at an early age, even though my tendency was to be left hand dominant. Today, I am essentially ambidextrous, but it never occurred to me that left handedness, as well as 2D:4D (second digit, fourth digit ratio of length) could also be indicators of GD. As I said previously for my case, I don't know that I will change anything, but it sure is nice to have a better understanding of how I got here.

On the 2D:4D ratio, My fourth digit is decidedly longer than my second. That's just an indicator that I was exposed to higher testosterone in utero, before birth. That showed up in my prominent Adam's apple, my broad shoulder bone structure and in a neanderthal unibrow. But, I never had a lot of body hair until taking testosterone replacement injections starting in my forties. My 2D:4D ratio shows a natural testosterone dominance, and the added TRT has maintained my testosterone at the high end of normal. But, all that testosterone has not given me the least bit stronger masculine aesthetic. I was never particularly "masculine" but my felt need for a feminine presentation came after the TRT started. I don't think the TRT was causal in any way, but it definitely has not hindered my leaning to a feminine aesthetic.

I don't have gender dysphoria but I do have a very strong gender divergence. Coming to accept that divergence has helped me to avoid a fair amount of dysphoria.

[Snide_lobster]

My ex described me as such, "if someone told me you were autistic I would have believed them". Now it's not really an academic or authoritarian source, but interesting, nonetheless. I've always considered myself to share multiple traits with autistic individuals, but I don't think I actually am. That being said, I do have hypersensitivities, stimming, social ineptitudes, strong pattern recognition, hyper fixation, and repetitive behaviors. Whatever the truth, it doesn't matter to me, I'm well-adjusted enough as is, no formal diagnosis will make anything different, and I have no emotional reaction to being either condition either.

[Rachelakld]

Umm, I also have stress when placed in social situations.
Luckily Rachel is a opposite in that regard and loves social activity.

I put my social anxienty on the fact, as a child living in the bush, all my friends lived a mile away in any direction, so close contract skills were never formed.
When I was 19, I was put in a class with a similar male and we would often end up in a fight, while the city boys, with their small personal zones, could get close without affecting either of us.
So I just assumed it was about "personal zones"

[Samantha51]

I can relate totally to this.
But, all that testosterone has not given me the least bit stronger masculine aesthetic. I was never particularly "masculine" but my felt need for a feminine presentation came after the TRT started. I don't think the TRT was causal in any way, but it definitely has not hindered my leaning to a feminine aesthetic.

I don't have gender dysphoria but I do have a very strong gender divergence. Coming to accept that divergence has helped me to avoid a fair amount of dysphoria.

I've not been here for a few weeks but just came back to this. Fascinating 2D:4D though it seems a bit simplistic IMO.

I was on TRT last summer and it was during that period that my interest in CD (and now TG) went from occasional pantie wearing for seconds to a big obsession with a desire to explore my gender. I think it may be indicative that BOTH my T levels AND my E levels went overrange.

Three subsequent blood tests - last tests on TRT
* free-T went from 21% to 35% to 162%
* Oestradiol from 37% to 39% to 200%.
* FSH, LH, Prolactin, etc available if you want!

Now I don't know if it had any bearing, but it seems there's a good chance that TRT "opened the door" by boosting my E to pre-existing childhood crossdressing and transgender condition. It makes sense as beforehand I had only occasional interest in CD or M2F but now it's pretty all-consuming.

Either way I now consider myself transgender or gender variant of some kind. I've had initial consultations with 3 counsellors to choose one to start working through this. Exciting. Given a magic "sex change with no consequences" button I now think I'd press it.