An Observation

[CaptLex]

As I started this post, let's just say that the current set of labels available falls short in being able to capture the essense of how we feel.

Well said - good summary

Just a little about people I know.

Haley, you lost me . . . what does your post have to do with the current topic?

[HaleyPink2000]

Well said - good summary


Haley, you lost me . . . what does your post have to do with the current topic?

Just that people vary on a theme! Also that not just F2m's or M2F's get noticed in the Mall.

Sorry for the confusion.

[Keira]

I am not a lesbian because I like men, I am not straight because I have a female to male boyfriend. Why am I with an FTM if I like boys. Well mull over that one and think about what your posting next time.

Wren
I'm sorry to have offended you or anyone else, I totally did not mean anything except to try and help you!
I just SO saw my self (two years ago!) in many of your posts!
I had an amazing girlfriend at the tiem and tried to get her to do the "boy" thing. She wasn't into it, but tried to please me at her own expense.
I was in total denial that I was anything BUT straight and into men!
Now that I look back, I feel like I acted like a total loser, trying to hang my denial onto somebody i supposedly loved. Call it control or denial or both, I can now admit that was a big part of it.
Sorry again if anybody was upset by this, I don't like labels any more than anyone else.

Hugs,
Keira

[Tamara Croft]

I've noticed that a general statement in a lot of places is that there are no female cross dressers because a woman can wear mens garments and not have a problem.

I've actually read that once before on this very forum

One thing I've learned so far about you guys, is how hard it really must be being a ftm cd/ts. It's not so much about wearing guys clothing, or getting the usual bs from others about wearing guys stuff, it seems to me that many people don't take you seriously and put you all in this 'butch lesbian' label..... Damn it pisses me off.

I keep reading how 'it's ok for women to wear guys clothes', but that in itself isn't doing you guys any good, because again, that puts you under yet another label, but the bloody wrong one. I don't understand why MTF CD/TS are taken more seriously than the FTM's and I see that a lot on this very forum. Well, you guys have my support anytime you need it and although I can't possibly imagine what it must be like for you, I can certainly imagine.

[Wren]

Wren
I'm sorry to have offended you or anyone else, I totally did not mean anything except to try and help you!
I just SO saw my self (two years ago!) in many of your posts!
I had an amazing girlfriend at the tiem and tried to get her to do the "boy" thing. She wasn't into it, but tried to please me at her own expense.
I was in total denial that I was anything BUT straight and into men!
Now that I look back, I feel like I acted like a total loser, trying to hang my denial onto somebody i supposedly loved. Call it control or denial or both, I can now admit that was a big part of it.
Sorry again if anybody was upset by this, I don't like labels any more than anyone else.

Hugs,
Keira

Okay...did you ignore the rest of my post. Did you think before posting this? So now I'm forcing my boyfriend to be a FTM crossdresser? So now have you not only insulted me but now you are saying that my boyfriend is not FTM of his own free will, it's all me fabricating this?

Okay not that I have to justify anything to you, but I am what you may call a pansexual. I don't judge based on gender, but I tend to be more attracted to males. I didn't actually mean for you to strip down why I was with an FTM cder, it was sarcasm. I know why I am where I am. So basically your post to me was still telling me I was in denial. Couldn't you have apologized and dropped your preaching?

You missed the entire point of why you were insulting me.

[CaptLex]

I don't understand why MTF CD/TS are taken more seriously than the FTM's and I see that a lot on this very forum. Well, you guys have my support anytime you need it and although I can't possibly imagine what it must be like for you, I can certainly imagine.

Thanks, Tamara - that really means a lot.

[Wren]

Right there with you. It is complicated most often, all the lables in the world can not capture the essense of how we feel.

Righto!

This is a problem - not just in this case - but in general. People simply can not grasp the notion of understanding and supporting people who are different than themselves. It's all very selfish: "I'm not gay, why should I go to a pride rally?" They do not see that supporting the rights of one group is supporting the rights of everyone. Very sad...

Excellent point, I have a friend who is constantly saying that about gay pride, that she would go but she's not even 2% gay. I die a little on the inside everytime she says this. People are too worried I think about fitting into this or that, or not being mislabelled, everybodies always missing the point. Kind to your fellow human being...all that jazz

This is very merky area for transpeople. Gay/Lesbian/Straight is a sexual preference thing - although what we call sexual attraction is usually gender attraction. I'm attracted to what is stereotypically feminine, and it took me awhile to reconcile that it doesn't seem to matter what sex is making that presentation. Does this make me hetero / homo / bi / pan / whatever-sexual? I suppose it only matters to the extent I want it to matter. Add to this the fact that I have come to see 'beauty' in rather ambiguously gendered persons as well and... As I started this post, let's just say that the current set of labels available falls short in being able to capture the essense of how we feel.

I get berated all the time about this, myself being FTMish, gayish, straightish. It all comes down to how we choose to identify. It's a personal choice and it's something a person considers for a long time, and puts a lot of thought and energy into it. I was told in my early days struggling with being badgered by people by a wise person that as a human being I could be anything that I wanted to be, anything that I felt that I was. To me that was a melting pot of different things.

I'm attracted to my boyfriend because he passes as a man (not solely, but that's the superficial way of looking at it). I met him in the early years, and he was a close friend. He came out to me as FTM...and well the rest was history.

He wants to be seen as a male, I prefer in this relationship to be seen as a female. walking down the street we look like a straight couple. I consider us an interestingly straight couple. That's all that matters.

Anyway my point got lost somewhere in there, I'm burning with passionate fire and it doesn't allow me to post in a lucid fashion.

p.s. Your Ranma 1/2 avatar is gold. Truly brilliant.

[sparro]

Wren
I'm sorry to have offended you or anyone else, I totally did not mean anything except to try and help you!
I just SO saw my self (two years ago!) in many of your posts!
I had an amazing girlfriend at the tiem and tried to get her to do the "boy" thing. She wasn't into it, but tried to please me at her own expense.
I was in total denial that I was anything BUT straight and into men!
Now that I look back, I feel like I acted like a total loser, trying to hang my denial onto somebody i supposedly loved. Call it control or denial or both, I can now admit that was a big part of it.
Sorry again if anybody was upset by this, I don't like labels any more than anyone else.

Hugs,
Keira

Okay. This has really got to stop. You seem to be completely ignoring what Wren is saying, and now you've gone and offended me as well as her more.

I AM WREN'S BOYFRIEND. I AM NOT GOING TO LEAVE HER BECAUSE SHE'S NOT MAKING ME DO ANYTHING I DON'T WANT TO. I CROSSDRESS BECAUSE I LIKE TO.

I don't understand why you are even continuing with this, considering Wren has made it full clear, along with many other people, that that kind of help is not appropriate to give without someone needing or asking for it first. And she does not want it. I think she has made it FULL clear that your help isn't wanted, and you have to respect her wishes. Projecting your problems onto someone you barely know and acting superior about it is totally inappropriate. Please do not reply to this.




On a different note, I appologize for not making our relationship clear earlier. We both thought it would seem a little awkward. The thing is we use this forum as two seperate people, not a couple, and since we're both on the FtM forum... we just wanted to be seen as two different people, I guess.

[Kieron Andrew]

On a different note, I appologize for not making our relationship clear earlier. We both thought it would seem a little awkward. The thing is we use this forum as two seperate people, not a couple, and since we're both on the FtM forum... we just wanted to be seen as two different people, I guess.

Your relationship is no ones business but your own!, we will all continue to see you as separate people with separate views and issues!!

on a different note Keira i suggest you take some time out, and sit and read all that you have written to Wren and others for that matter.....and see just how offensive and upsetting you have been, the way others conduit their life is no business of yours or anyone elses for that matter, you have no right to tell someone they are FTM or not!, as you do not know that person personally.........

The FTM forum has always been fairly harmonious til you came along please be aware your actions and words can sometimes hurt a person

I will NOT allow any member of this forum to feel hurt and intimidated by another!

anymore of this crap and im closing the thread permanently as it has gone wayyyyyyy off track!!

[CaptLex]

On a different note, I appologize for not making our relationship clear earlier. We both thought it would seem a little awkward. The thing is we use this forum as two seperate people, not a couple, and since we're both on the FtM forum... we just wanted to be seen as two different people, I guess.

Your relationship is no ones business but your own!, we will all continue to see you as separate people with separate views and issues!!

I agree with Kells on this. Obviously, the reason you guys are here is because it's the place where each one feels comfortable, and the forum is open to both of you individually, regardless of your relationship (which I think is cool, btw). It really doesn't matter if one identifies as "male" or "female" in your relationship (if that's the case), all that matters is that you fit in here - and you both do.

Keira,

I understand your thinking that Wren reminds you of your own past situation, but the fact remains that you don't really know Wren (even if you think you do) and, more importantly, no advice or help was requested. :nono:

[Kieron Andrew]

in fact.....wren you know you are sooooo gonna have to post some pics of you together now lol..........the happy couple lol, get yourself a photo thread in the gallery going!!!

[sparro]

in fact.....wren you know you are sooooo gonna have to post some pics of you together now lol..........the happy couple lol, get yourself a photo thread in the gallery going!!!

. I feel special. ahem. We don't have many pictures because we usually rely on other people's cameras. But I think we will.

[Ms. Donna]

Your Ranma 1/2 avatar is gold. Truly brilliant.

Thanks. For me, it seemed to capture the 'essence' of how I see my self - shifting back and forth while never being either. I think it's very cool that anime so willingly includes transgender themes in their storylines. They treat it as a normal thing.

I get berated all the time about this, myself being FTMish, gayish, straightish. It all comes down to how we choose to identify. It's a personal choice and it's something a person considers for a long time, and puts a lot of thought and energy into it. I was told in my early days struggling with being badgered by people by a wise person that as a human being I could be anything that I wanted to be, anything that I felt that I was. To me that was a melting pot of different things.

I don't know how much this happens in the gay community, but I have heard a lot of this in the lesbian community. You can be as 'butch' as you want, but once you start to identify as a transman, you are either in denial (you can't admit you are a lesbian), ostracized (if you're a 'man', than you have no place here) or pitied (another one lost to the patriarchy). Again, it's all a result of looking at sex and gender as one unit and holding the opinion that you need to be one to the other.

The transgender community (if you can call it that) can be a very unaccepting place. It's members often cling to their labels so tightly that they see any challenge of the definition thereof as a personal attact. You are either 'one of us, or you're not.'

Not so much here, but there is a the TG 'pecking order' which is prevenient over on the M2F side of the hall. From Kate Bornstein's book, Gender Outlaw:

Post-operative Transsexuals (those transsexuals who've had genital surgery and live fully in the role of another gender) look down on:

Pre-operative Transsexuals (those who are living full or part time in another gender, but who've not yet had their genital surgery) who in turn look down on:

Transgenders (people living in another gender identity, but who have little or no intention of having genital surgery) who can't abide:

She-Males (a she-male friend of mine described herself as "tits, big hair, lots of make-up and a dick") who snub the:

Drag Queens (gay men who on occasion dress in varying parodies of women) who laugh about the:

Out Transvestites (usually heterosexual men who dress as they think women dress, and who are out in the open about doing it) who pity the:

Closet Cases (transvestites who hide their crossdressing) who mock the post-op transsexuals.

I've been on-line in TG forums for nearly 10 years, I have attended gender workshops and discussion groups and I can honestly say that the above is pretty accurate. And what I find most most interesting is that Transmen simply do not seem to play this game: their networks - as a rule - are about support for each other. But the Transgirls... bog, but we're a catty lot. It's not that we've lost the plot - more like we never had it to begin with.

He wants to be seen as a male, I prefer in this relationship to be seen as a female. walking down the street we look like a straight couple. I consider us an interestingly straight couple. That's all that matters.

To me, it sounds like you have a pretty cool relationship. But more importantly, it works for you both - you are both happy in it. If that means you are the 'girl' when you're out together, but a 'boy' other times - so what? Personally, I find it somewhat unnatural to have to 'be' one thing all the time. I mean, everything in nature is dynamic. Even rocks - static as they may seem - change over time.

I like to look at it like this: the seed becomes the plant - the plant becomes the tree - the tree grows buds - the buds become flowers - the flowers become fruit - the fruit becomes the seed... They are all different and yet all the same - they are all different instances of the same being.


As dynamic beings, why should we any different?


Love & Stuff,
Donna

[Ms. Donna]

And Ms_Donna, very very interesting post, I never thought about that sort of thing. I've never really noticed much snubbing on this site, but what you put sounds like it would defenitely happen.

I don't see it actively happening here, on this site - everyone here is pretty respectful of each other. But in the M2F 'community' as a whole, it is a very real thing: a constant game of tranny queen of the hill.

You guys just seem to have you act together - low profile, do your thing, support one another and get through life as best as you can.

Love & Stuff,
Donna