What do you think?

[Felix]

Well this is my quandry I present as quite butch to the people in my work always have even though I tried to soften my approach when I grew my hair. This made no difference to the way poeple saw me psychologically though. They still see me as dyke which I don't mind if they feel the need to label me.I find it hard because I find myself fitting their stereotype of me even though I like and prefere my boi image which I feel very comfortable with. Does this sound confusing or familiar. It's wiered cos I can't be like the other women around the other women I have to be like the blokes and like the blokes are around the women staff lol it does my head in but there ya go that's life I guess when ya in flux if thats the right word. Any thoughts on this ???

[mistunderstood]

Yes very familiar. It gets confusing for me to. For that matter it get confusing for me and my girlfriend sometimes. So welcome to the club.

[Julie York]

Most folk can't distinguish between sexual orientation and gender orientation.

[kittypw GG]

Hope you don't mind my input here. I never really gave crossdressing much of a thought until I met my husband. I knew that it existed but I always thought of it in terms of mtf. I have known and befriended many "butch" lesbians but never thought that they felt like boys trapped in womens bodies. It's funny the topic never ever came up. I find this kind of weird. Do you think that it is just more accepted and nobody really thinks it's weird because being a lesbian is accepted in our culture? Why do you think that the topic has never come up? Do most of the non-feminine lesbians think they are crossdressers or is it something that they really don't think about either? I have been woundering about this lately. If I am talking to a women dressed more like a guy and with more of a male haircut, should I relate to them like I would a guy or does it matter? I hope that I have not been insensitive without even knowing it. Kitty

[CaptLex]

Well this is my quandry I present as quite butch to the people in my work always have even though I tried to soften my approach when I grew my hair. This made no difference to the way poeple saw me psychologically though. They still see me as dyke which I don't mind if they feel the need to label me.I find it hard because I find myself fitting their stereotype of me even though I like and prefere my boi image which I feel very comfortable with. Does this sound confusing or familiar. It's wiered cos I can't be like the other women around the other women I have to be like the blokes and like the blokes are around the women staff lol it does my head in but there ya go that's life I guess when ya in flux if thats the right word. Any thoughts on this ???

Hi Silvawitch (nice pic, by the way):

I think I understand what you mean about "in flux". I find that who I'm with also determines (to some extent) how I feel I can behave, and that sometimes causes me to just feel too uncomfortable to hang around with some people because then I don't feel like I'm really being myself. Is that more or less it, or did I miss your point?

Regarding the labeling, for a very long time I adopted a gender-neutral appearance (or "softened" it, as you say) by using certain accessories and (minimal) makeup so that people wouldn't assume I was lesbian. Not that I consider "lesbian" a derogatory term, but I just didn't want to be called something I'm not.

I realize now how stupid that is since lesbians come in all different packages, but I did it because most people (in their ignorance) see a masculine-looking female and don't bother to ask, they just assume - and I was tired of that. Nowadays I don't wear anything or use anything I don't feel I want and I just let people assume what they want. I had to work at it, but I now feel comfortable enough with myself to present myself how I want.

[CaptLex]

Hope you don't mind my input here.

Hey, Kitty:

Thanks for the visit - drop by anytime. You've got a lot of questions and comments here, so I'll try to answer them as best I can.

I never really gave crossdressing much of a thought until I met my husband. I knew that it existed but I always thought of it in terms of mtf.

When most people think of crossdressers they think of MtFs because there are a lot more of them, and because most people have no idea that there is such a thing as FtM. They just think a person who is obviously genetically female and dresses or tries to appear male must be a butch lesbian.

I have known and befriended many "butch" lesbians but never thought that they felt like boys trapped in womens bodies. It's funny the topic never ever came up. I find this kind of weird.

Well, not all butch lesbians identify as male, although I believe some identify partially that way, but in fact most of the ones I've met would say they're not male and don't want to be.

Do you think that it is just more accepted and nobody really thinks it's weird because being a lesbian is accepted in our culture? Why do you think that the topic has never come up?

What are you asking "is just more accepted"? Not sure if you're asking whether females crossdressing is more accepted, or if butch lesbians dressing in a male manner is more accepted. Or do you mean that FtMs are more accepted because people assume they're lesbians? Please clarify.

Do most of the non-feminine lesbians think they are crossdressers or is it something that they really don't think about either? I have been woundering about this lately.

Um . . . I can't say I'm an expert on lesbian things so I can't tell you definitively if the butch ones consider themselves crossdressers, but I would say it probably depends on the individual, and there is no "blanket" answer to that question.

If I am talking to a women dressed more like a guy and with more of a male haircut, should I relate to them like I would a guy or does it matter? I hope that I have not been insensitive without even knowing it.

Again, I would say this depends on the individual. I'm sure there are some who would adamantly state that they are women - not men and would be annoyed to be referred to as men. Likewise, I know quite a few FtMs who would correct you if you called them women. I think the right thing to do would be to ask the individual so there's no confusion.

Again, the above is based on my experiences and conversations, so I hope anyone with different experiences will chime in and express theirs. I hope this helps.

[Kimberley]

Hi Guys
Interesting points. I think that today gay/lesbians are far more accepted both professionally and socially. I believe the social mores are such that questioning orientation for a lesbian or TG F2M would be taboo in just about any circumstance. The word insensitive comes to mind.

However on the other side of the fence, ridicule is almost assured for a M2F if not blatantly then certainly in camera. Certainly a double standard.

Just my observations.

[Felix]

Thanx everybody for your thoughts on this one and the complement about my pic captlex. Yeah it is confusing at times it's wiered cos I quite get a buzz from being likened to the boys. I think thats because I feel as though I have a very strong masculine side to me, also because my preference is women I feel that if I were a man I would still want to be with women lol my partner now that goes withoput saying At the moment I am going toward a more gender neutral thing I suppose I still dress the way I feel comfortable not the way everybody else expects me to be although there are still occasions when I will not bind because I am not out to certain people. Out meaning how I wish to express myself not label myself if that makes sense. As for how I identify I think more toward Boi than anything else. I feel comfortable talking in here about how I feel too and thanx for that

[kittypw GG]

Hey, Kitty:


What are you asking "is just more accepted"? Not sure if you're asking whether females crossdressing is more accepted, or if butch lesbians dressing in a male manner is more accepted. Or do you mean that FtMs are more accepted because people assume they're lesbians? Please clarify.


:

Well I think that ftm's dressing in a male manner is more accepted because people assume they're lesbians. The more I think about this topic the more fascinated I become that the topic of ftm's has never come up (at least in my world). I mean that it is not real clear which are just lesbians and which are really ftm cd/tg's. It is sort of obvious in the mtf's.

Another question I have is that some of you guys have partners right? Do any of them belong to the gg section? Or do they just don't feel the need to receive support because they don't ever have a problem with acceptance?

Your picture is quite nice Silvawitch by the way, very manly, and thanks for the thread. It is a good one. Kitty

[CaptLex]

Well I think that ftm's dressing in a male manner is more accepted because people assume they're lesbians. The more I think about this topic the more fascinated I become that the topic of ftm's has never come up (at least in my world). I mean that it is not real clear which are just lesbians and which are really ftm cd/tg's. It is sort of obvious in the mtf's.

Yes, you're right - there's no sure fire way to know which is which, so the only way to know for sure is to ask. And since so many people don't realize that there is such a thing as a female crossdresser or an FtM, they don't even think to ask. Although, it also happens to MtFs that people assume if they crossdress they must be gay (or drag queens).

Another question I have is that some of you guys have partners right? Do any of them belong to the gg section? Or do they just don't feel the need to receive support because they don't ever have a problem with acceptance?

This is a very good question, Kitty, and I hope one (or more) of the guys here who has a GG partner will answer it, since I can't. I don't currently have a partner, and if I did he wouldn't be a GG (and that might require a whole different support group).

[Felix]

Hi Kitty thanx for the complement. I am in a lesbian relationship have been for five years now. Your questions are interesting. For me drag and FTM is kinda different well depending on how the drag artist dresses. Some pass really well and just look like regular guys while others and no offence intended look like well over the top and typically Drag like. I like the natural look if ya know what I mean I think it is hard for people to know the difference and that's why people have problems with me cos how do they treat me if they have there own fixed perceptions of what they think I am when they don't really know! It's difficult cos I don't think I should have to lay myself bare. One of the kids who I work with said,'Miss you really do look like a boy.' So I said, 'Well I can handle that, but at the end of the day it doesn't matter what I look like cos I'm still me inside.' He said, 'Yeah thats true miss.' That was that really, I just wish adults could be as open and accepting! So I guess I'm a lesbian who looks like a guy and feels half like a guy on the inside and half like a woman that can be confusing at times for me and those who don't really know me. lol it can be confusing for those who do to like my wonderful partner lol Is this any help Kitty or have I confused you too ?

[kittypw GG]

It is a little confusing Silvawitch, but mostly I think that you might have the best of both worlds.
You should definately make this picture your avatar. Kitty

[kittypw GG]

I don't currently have a partner, and if I did he wouldn't be a GG (and that might require a whole different support group).

CaptLex,
Would you consider yourself gay then? I mean since you are attracted to men? I have heard that gender and sexuality are two different things. Would you other guys identify more with heterosexual men? Since you are attracted to females?

I used to go to gay clubs faily often since my best friend was a gay man.(he passed away almost 3 years ago now) I don't go as often as I used to but next time I interact with others in that venue, I will definitly think about the interactions more. I love this forum for it's diversity. Such a powerful place.
Kitty

[CaptLex]

CaptLex,
Would you consider yourself gay then? I mean since you are attracted to men? I have heard that gender and sexuality are two different things. Would you other guys identify more with heterosexual men? Since you are attracted to females?

Yes, ma'am, I do - although in theory, not in practice, since so far I've only dated straight men. I think the TG community is just like the rest of the world where most people are straight and there's a small group (some say 10%) that is gay. And I fall in that small percentage. I'm hoping that as I get further along in my transition I'll be able to attract gay men, but right now I don't think there's much chance.

[Kieron Andrew]

Yes, ma'am, I do - although in theory, not in practice, since so far I've only dated straight men. I think the TG community is just like the rest of the world where most people are straight and there's a small group (some say 10%) that is gay. And I fall in that small percentage. I'm hoping that as I get further along in my transition I'll be able to attract gay men, but right now I don't think there's much chance.

lol you should have been out with me the other night, gay men was ALL i was attracting lol........and it was driving me nuts cos i consider myself a straight guy lol

[Kieron Andrew]

Yes, ma'am, I do - although in theory, not in practice, since so far I've only dated straight men. I think the TG community is just like the rest of the world where most people are straight and there's a small group (some say 10%) that is gay. And I fall in that small percentage. I'm hoping that as I get further along in my transition I'll be able to attract gay men, but right now I don't think there's much chance.

lol you should have been out with me the other night, gay men was ALL i was attracting lol........and it was driving me nuts cos i consider myself a straight guy lol..........yes i was in a gay club

[CaptLex]

lol you should have been out with me the other night, gay men was ALL i was attracting lol........and it was driving me nuts cos i consider myself a straight guy lol..........yes i was in a gay club

Okay, that's it! I'm on the next plane out to England! When I go to gay clubs, they're friendly enough to chat, dance and buy me drinks, but they see me as a girl, so that's it. Now I know . . . I gotta get to the UK - and you know I love those British accents!

[Kieron Andrew]

Okay, that's it! I'm on the next plane out to England! When I go to gay clubs, they're friendly enough to chat, dance and buy me drinks, but they see me as a girl, so that's it. Now I know . . . I gotta get to the UK - and you know I love those British accents!

lol come on over.....theres a bed here lol!!

[mistunderstood]

Yes. Norriesmom is my girlfriend and she is with the GG's forum. We have been dateing for 2 years and 2 months. When I came out to her about being F2M we struggled with it. The whole question about being gay or strait. Right now we just look at it that we both are gay and leave it alone. Some times she feels alone though because most of the GG's have M2F partners.
My SO goes back and forth on the issue of exceptance. I think it takes steps to gain full exceptance just like it takes me steps to except who I am as long as we move forward and communicate I think we will be ok.
Hope that answered your question.

[Wren]

*TWITCH* *sigh*

You know I've tried decorum but I've found the solution.

Just punch people. really, no really, try it. examples taken from my life. and the action that should have followed.

"Hey wren, what do you know about men your a real dyke" punch them

"Your silly thinking that your own feeling count for anything, of course your a lesbian, everybody knows it but you" punch them

"You can't be a crossdresser, because you dress like a girl 85% of the time" punch them

"Just stop calling your SO your boyfriends. It just confuses everybody" (My BF being an FTM) punch them

"How are you doing" punch them

Diatribe much? I'm in a pretty sour state. and what should everybody do...
PUNCH ME!!