TS questions.. all welcome to reply

[Makncheese]

Donna~
I don't understand what you mean when you say that when the sex of the body has been corrected the person is not a TS anymore. I've mostly heard post-op TSs still consider themselves TS since genetically they are still the opposite (trans) sex. And I figure that even if you could change the genetics.. unless you did that within a very short time after birth.. the life experiences of the TS mean they lived a life in the other sex.. and so may have a lot of attitudes, ideas, and experiences that they have only because they are TS. So I don't see that as being erased.

I'm not sure how many would accept that POV that way. I, for one, don't. I don't believe in some kind of genetic dividing line in the sand. Yes, my past is different than other women, but then, can you truly say all other women experieced the same past? Do life experieces define you, or do YOU define you? I believe the past is illusory, and the future is unknowable, so all we really have is the present, the now. In the now, I am a woman without the T qualifier. Just as many people don't discuss their felon convictions, or their inability to read, or their abortions, or whatever else might be considered a derogatory history, I don't ever tell anyone I'm a woman with a TS history.

Makncheese~
Welcome to the forum! I hope you find lots of interesting and fun things here. And that you'll share your experience, thoughts and feelings with us as well. I'd like to see more TS issues brought up.

Thanks for the welcome. I'm not sure if I'm going to be here much more than to see whats up.

[GypsyKaren]

Steph, Kimberly, & Karen~
The differing opinions and different choices related to TS goals is what this thread is all about. And so its good to hear how unique each journey is. I do have a prob with non-ops pointing out how unhappy post-ops are.
~Kitty~

I'm just talking about the post-ops that I personally know, and it's not about career decisions. I'm certainly not saying or implying that all post-ops are unhappy, I'm sure there are plenty of them out there who are doing just great, and I'm happy for them. It's just that I do have a prob with those who try to point out to me that I'm unhappy, that's something that's happened more than just a few times.

Karen

[~Dee~]

I'm not sure how many would accept that POV that way. I, for one, don't.

well, i think its a person to person thing.
personally, i dont believe that any amount of surgery will make me 'female'.
after my sugery is complete i will still consider myself a transsexual female.
i feel female now, and i will feel just as female afterwards ..
so the surgery isnt a magical transformation .. its just improving an aspect.
i know that a lot of the TS girls i know are also of the same mind.

as for ones past .. i am proud of my past and im not about to ditch it in order to blend better. somedays i believe its a miracle that i survived my past .. so i dont see why i would hide it away. but thats just me

but, we are all unique and have our own ideas and beliefs.

[~Kitty GG~]

Karen~
Well that's just silly for someone else to give you a newsflash on whether you're happy or not. I'd ask them what color the sky is in their world..

Makncheese~
Having an abortion is a small ep in your life. Its not like living a whole childhood, early adulthood, and possibly quite a lot of adulthood as a dif gender.
All the pix of you before transition.. All the relationships.. For me.. I couldn't just deny that. I wouldn't go around telling people I meet casually about it all. But those who are the close to me, I'd want to be able to share this with.

That doesn't mean that you have to feel like I do.

L&H
~K

[Makncheese]

Yes, we all have different views and experiences, none are better than others, just different...

Kitty:

I recall a quote from my college days that went something like this:
"hows ya see things depends on where ya' standin"

In my experience, once I tasted the absolute freedom from the T qualifier, its hard to go back to it.

I guess it depends on how important it is for one to be treated unequivocally as a woman. To me, it was, is, and will always be what I want. I don't mean the trivial things like having guys open doors for me, or hitting on me. I don't mean having some cop say "can I have your licence ma'am", or being comfortable changing in a womens locker room.

I mean complete assimilation into womens space. I mean being completely accepted as one by everyone, at all times, in all ways. No questions, no doubts, no funny looks, no rumors behind my back, no "Hey did you hear about {insert name}...she used to be a HE!". I have many women friends who, without exception, without condition, KNOW that I am female. It is a tremendously liberating feeling for me. You might guess that I'm not an "out and proud" person. I don't do conferences, or support groups, or socialize with other T women IRL.

As I said, once one experiences this level of acceptance, its VERY hard to go back to the T qualifier.

Dee...can I ask where you are in transition?

[Maria D]

Kitty GG, in terms of 'being' TS, post op, and in terms of the past; is someone who was born blind and, due to medical science, was given the ability to see, still blind? Sure, their life thus far would have been blind, but they aren't afterwards.
Or perhaps someone with 12 fingers, who having them removed is still labelled polydactylic? Surely that isn't sense-making?
I tend to see 'TS' as something I have, rather than something I am. Yes it colours my life, but so do many things. Too much emphasis is put on defining with incorrect criteria, or at least, language. I am NOT, for instance, an optical lab technician; it is simply my job and my career, and it can change.
So being TS? The process of transition changes that. The fact I looked like a boy in my childhood photos is moot, it's who I was, which though related to who I am, isn't who I am. You were a little girl once Kitty GG, but you aren't now, right? You changed, right? You don't deny there was a time in your life when you had no breasts, couldn't tie laces, read and write, and wore a nappy, right? But it's not who you are now. Ok, childhood is tenuous since it's normal to experience it, but it's the best example I can think of of a change that you yourself have been through. You can change, and accept the past, without it defining who you are now. You WERE a child, you're over it. You can refer to it in a past tense, if you choose, but it's NOT who you are now. My point is, in my eyes anyway, I won't be TS after transition is finished, any more than my imagined blind man is blind after his sight is fixed.

Of course, then you get into the muddy waters of what a man or woman is... well, genetics doesn't cover it all, so no, I care not that I'm XY, many natal women are. And there also, BTW, we both make the big assumption that we are all normally chromosomed here. I have no idea what my makeup is, since I've not had it tested. Have you?
I care not how I look either, FTM TSs look like women before transition, but they aren't, are they? So what is it that makes a man a man? What the person feels they are, surely?

Oh, and 'tell casually'? No, I wouldn't do that, too personal, but I wouldn't tell someone I hardly knew about my bruised big-toenail either, for the same reason.
Oh, damn, I just did.

Take care

[~Dee~]

Dee...can I ask where you are in transition?

im at the point where im starting my hormone treatment.

yeah, i guess im not post op and cant blend in and be seen as this goddess of femininity ..
but then, i do know that everyone in my life knows about me and accepts me as who i am... my friends i game with, my parents, the girls i go to school with .. they all are happy for me and supportive.
i wouldnt give up that feeling, its just too nice.
those who are close to me know about my past, they understand me and they help me.

so i see this as my acceptance and my blending.
no, i might not be fulltime yet (dammit end of year, where are you?).. but im still accepted.. the girls in school still offer me their bobby pins to pin my hair out of my face.

so, like you said .. we all see things different.

[~Kitty GG~]

Maria~
Yes I was a little girl. And I have fond memories of being a little girl. And I am who I am cuz of my whole life experience.

I was also married before. That part of my life didn't cease to exist. It comes up. I'd have to hide so much of myself to only be who and what I am right now.

I'm not saying that anyone who wants to put that past away shouldn't be able to.

Everyone can identify however they want to.

I was asking Donna what she meant by her statement. Cuz from MY POINT OF VIEW.. and from those I've spoken to.. I hadn't heard anyone consider their physical body is now fixed.. and they are no longer TS.

I still think that living so many years in one gender has more lasting influence on a person then if they had an extra finger. And when that finger was removed .. I doubt they also had their birth cert amended.

Its great to blend in and not have anyone suspect that a person was not born female. But does that mean that it has no bearing on their future?

If they choose to enter a relationship.. what then? Do they not tell their partner?

If you were born blind and the miracle of science has given you sight. I doubt you'd go around denying that you were ever blind.

I didn't think I was being insulting. Or trampling other's beliefs. I don't consider TS females to be less than genetic females. If it was in my power to give all people the genetic identity they should have. I would.

~Kitty~

[~Dee~]

is someone who was born blind and, due to medical science, was given the ability to see, still blind? Sure, their life thus far would have been blind, but they aren't afterwards.
Or perhaps someone with 12 fingers, who having them removed is still labelled polydactylic? Surely that isn't sense-making?

thats fine to say.
but they arent making you see again.
if you transition and you come out there other side of it with all the female parts and the ability to function as a female .. then sure, that could be classed as female, in my mind.

but transition doesnt do that, you still rely on little pills, and such, in order to continue with your life.
once ive transitioned i will still have to take my meds in order to keep up my end of the bargain .. ill need to be doing excercises and all those sorts of lovely things .. thats not a normal female duty.

so i dont see it like giving a blind person their sight .. more like giving them an eye that looks real and having them still use their cane to function.
thats why i still say that i wont be a woman as such .. ill be a transexual female. its not something that im going to go up to a stranger and say hey im ts.. how are you today? ..
but having said that, ive warned everyone in my life so that i can deal with any problems. im not out and proud and willing to become a martyr for the cause .. but im not going to hide away or else im leaving one prison for another, but with nicer furnishings.

its not like im trying to downplay how people feel, or that they are lesser beings or the like, just how i see it.
0.02

[Makncheese]

thats fine to say.
but they arent making you see again.
if you transition and you come out there other side of it with all the female parts and the ability to function as a female .. then sure, that could be classed as female, in my mind.

but transition doesnt do that, you still rely on little pills, and such, in order to continue with your life. once ive transitioned i will still have to take my meds in order to keep up my end of the bargain .. ill need to be doing excercises and all those sorts of lovely things .. thats not a normal female duty.

As I said...hows you see things depends on where ya's standin'. Many many many women take estrogen daily. You think it was created just for us? And those exercises? And at some point, you are THROUGH with transtion, and all that it entails, both physically and psychologically. Life goes on, transition doesn't.

so i dont see it like giving a blind person their sight .. more like giving them an eye that looks real and having them still use their cane to function.
thats why i still say that i wont be a woman as such .. ill be a transexual female. its not something that im going to go up to a stranger and say hey im ts.. how are you today? ..

All I can say is this: I thought the same thing, but now I don't. Transition changes many things, including your POV.
I can say with absolute certainty that you won't feel this way post op.

but having said that, ive warned everyone in my life so that i can deal with any problems. im not out and proud and willing to become a martyr for the cause .. but im not going to hide away or else im leaving one prison for another, but with nicer furnishings.

Well, either you are out and proud, or you aren't. Its very hard to live in the "in between".

its not like im trying to downplay how people feel, or that they are lesser beings or the like, just how i see it.
0.02

of course you're not. Your POV is just as valuable as mine.

[~Dee~]

Many many many women take estrogen daily. You think it was created just for us?
And those exercises?

ok, thanks.. but i dont really need to know about your sex life.
my point was that its not a normal thing that females have to deal with.
no, i dont think that the oestrogen pill was invented for TS women, but this isnt normal behaviour for every young genetic girl, so saying that you are now suddenly just like every other girl on the planet, i think, is a bit beyond the capabilities in surgery.

And at some point, you are THROUGH with transtion, and all that it entails, both physically and psychologically. Life goes on, transition doesn't.

if transition ends and its all now over with, then once ive gone through my surgery i should leave this forum and move on ... cause im no longer welcome here? .. cause, id of moved on from all this, surely, if i were now female???
that doesnt make any sense to me.
post op or not, im coming back here.... ill still accept my past .. i will put myself into areas where i might just be discovered .. just because im done with all the surgery id of needed, doesnt mean that i suddenly erase everything and forget my past.

All I can say is this: I thought the same thing, but now I don't. Transition changes many things, including your POV.
I can say with absolute certainty that you won't feel this way post op.

you know what ... thanks, but i think i know me better than you do.
please dont speak for me, its very rude, not to mention patronizing and i dont really care for it.
if you have something to say, just say it, dont talk down to me.

Well, either you are out and proud, or you aren't. Its very hard to live in the "in between".

it might be hard, but its possible. im all for blending, so im not going to go around with a placard saying im TS and damn proud about it.
i like being able to walk into a room and not have everyone point and stare or giggle .. im allllll for that.
but, there are many situations that i think it warrants telling people, thats all.
i am proud of who i am, but that doesnt mean that i have to shout it from the rooftops .. just means im proud of who i am and i live my life without fear of being discovered or found out.

[~Kitty GG~]

it might be hard, but its possible. im all for blending, so im not going to go around with a placard saying im TS and damn proud about it.
i like being able to walk into a room and not have everyone point and stare or giggle .. im allllll for that.
but, there are many situations that i think it warrants telling people, thats all.
i am proud of who i am, but that doesnt mean that i have to shout it from the rooftops .. just means im proud of who i am and i live my life without fear of being discovered or found out.

It means being able to go to the ceremony last nite with your parents.

It means still being able to display our wedding photo.

I can understand why other don't choose this way. But its false to say that all who go through transition will disown their past.

L&H
~K

[Tamara Croft]

Well, either you are out and proud, or you aren't. Its very hard to live in the "in between".

This is what you said to Dee. And then you said....

You might guess that I'm not an "out and proud" person. I don't do conferences, or support groups, or socialize with other T women IRL.

I don't ever tell anyone I'm a woman with a TS history.

Sounds to me like you have some major issues yourself, telling Dee to get out there and be proud, yet you can't even acknowledge your own past, or other T Girls in RL. I hardly think you can come here preaching to others what you can't achieve yourself. You might be post op, but you certainly aren't post anything else.

Maybe you should get to know Dee before telling her how to live her life. Churches are for preachers, NOT this forum!

[Makncheese]

This is what you said to Dee. And then you said....Sounds to me like you have some major issues yourself, telling Dee to get out there and be proud, yet you can't even acknowledge your own past, or other T Girls in RL. I hardly think you can come here preaching to others what you can't achieve yourself. Maybe you should get to know Dee before telling her how to live her life. Churches are for preachers, NOT this forum!

sheesh...

I'm not telling her how to live her life at all. I'm sorry if I came across as preaching. That wasn't my intent at all. I would have thought that as someone who is just begining transition, she might have liked to hear a POV from someone who is all done with it. I'm not here to get support, but to give it. I don't NEED to be here...

What i was getting at (and this is only my POV) is that transition changes your perspective about how you present yourself to the world. Accept it or not, but it does. Ask any post op how they feel 5 years after they transition if they have the same perspective as they did at the beginning. After a while of living without disclosing, it HURTS to have to come out with it. It really does! It changes how people treat you and its not fun.

I'm not telling Dee to be out and proud at all. What I meant was that its very difficult to be "out" with everyone (or anyone for that matter)and yet maintain control of your history to the point where you are accepted without question as female. Its just very dificult to do, because your issue is so salacious with so many people. It travels like fire. Once you out yourself to someone; even if its just a friend, it is very difficult to contain that info. I prefer to contain it by never mentioning it. So what I meant by that quote was that its an "all or nothing" situation...there is no in between.

As for me, what do you mean by issues? Do you mean that because I don't hang out with other women with a T history that I've got issues of some sort? Why would that be an issue of mine?

You might be post op, but you certainly aren't post anything else.

As to that last little comment, I can only wonder what you meant by it. Care to elaborate?

[Makncheese]

ok, thanks.. but i dont really need to know about your sex life my point was that its not a normal thing that females have to deal with.
no, i dont think that the oestrogen pill was invented for TS women, but this isnt normal behaviour for every young genetic girl, so saying that you are now suddenly just like every other girl on the planet, i think, is a bit beyond the capabilities in surgery.



if transition ends and its all now over with, then once ive gone through my surgery i should leave this forum and move on ... cause im no longer welcome here? .. cause, id of moved on from all this, surely, if i were now female???
that doesnt make any sense to me.
post op or not, im coming back here.... ill still accept my past .. i will put myself into areas where i might just be discovered .. just because im done with all the surgery id of needed, doesnt mean that i suddenly erase everything and forget my past.



you know what ... thanks, but i think i know me better than you do.
please dont speak for me, its very rude, not to mention patronizing and i dont really care for it.
if you have something to say, just say it, dont talk down to me.



it might be hard, but its possible. im all for blending, so im not going to go around with a placard saying im TS and damn proud about it.
i like being able to walk into a room and not have everyone point and stare or giggle .. im allllll for that.
but, there are many situations that i think it warrants telling people, thats all.
i am proud of who i am, but that doesnt mean that i have to shout it from the rooftops .. just means im proud of who i am and i live my life without fear of being discovered or found out.

Ok. You win. I'm here as a post everything merely sharing my experience. Thats all.

No hostility intended.

[Maria D]

thats fine to say.
but they arent making you see again.
if you transition and you come out there other side of it with all the female parts and the ability to function as a female .. then sure, that could be classed as female, in my mind.

but transition doesnt do that, you still rely on little pills, and such, in order to continue with your life.
once ive transitioned i will still have to take my meds in order to keep up my end of the bargain .. ill need to be doing excercises and all those sorts of lovely things .. thats not a normal female duty.
0.02

My fiancee's mother had a hysterectomy 30 odd years ago, as far as I'm aware she's still considered female. My friend born without a bladder and various reproductive bits is, as far as I'm aware, still considered female. One of my Dad's friends born with a womb the size of a walnut, still, as you've guessed, known as a female. All manner of intersex people are still classified one sex or the other (though progress in the form of allowing them to choose later is being made), it's more than just reproductive bits you know. No, transition isn't perfect, but LIFE isn't perfect. When I'm finished, I'll be a female as much as my once bladderless friend, won't I? In my eyes anyway. If not, what is the difference?

Think of it like this: what's being given to the blind person isn't as good as 6/6 vision, but it's something, much better than nothing, and many people only have that something, and get by well. I see many people with impaired vision living as best they can, if a blind man complained that 'that' wasn't good enough, that they weren't given proper sight, I'd call that ungrateful. It's the best there is. In time, perhaps science will improve; until then, that's IT. Gutted I know, but that's life. You think my friend above wants kids? Tough, that's life, she deals with it, as best she can.

As to pills, millions if not billions of women take the same pills every day, though for a different reason. Hardly a big thing to complain about, unless you think it unfair that women 'have' to take said pill at all.

Kitty, you're right about it having more impact than having another finger. Regarding telling people you were blind, I suspect some people in that situation wouldn't tell. I certainly think they have a right to choose whether to or not, and even considering relationships, it's up to them to decide.
Me, everyone I know knows, simply because I just came out and carried on. No big leaving thing, no changing job or 'stuff'. Hiding isn't important to me, mainly because I'm lazy and couldn't be arsed to move and also because I was secure in my job and friends enough to have hope outweigh fear. It's not the right way, just my way and it worked for me.

Take care

[Ms. Donna]

Steph,

Kitty was asking people to share their experiences - why and how they made the choices they did. She did not ask us to critique oneanother.

Sounds to me like you setteled. Sounds to me like you weren't happy about it, but you did it. The question is... are you truely happy with your decision, or have you learned to live with it because you had to?

I guess what I am asking is... are you trying to convince us... or you?

Just because srs is not right for you what makes you think that it may not be right for someone else?

does agreeing with Karen and calling her a poster child for not having SRS give credence to your arguement for not having SRS?

Poster child? Is it really necessary for you to making a point at someone else's expense? Do you really need to trash the decisions and lives of others to support your position? Are you really that insecure about the decisions you have made?

We get it Steph - you're the 'real deal': you're a transsexual, you're transitioning and you're having SRS - the whole package. We get all of that - loud and clear.

If you would take a deep breath and step back, you'd see that no one here is arguing against SRS. What we are doing is sharing why it was not the right decision for us. It's right for you? Fantastic! Sing it's praises to all who will listen - I support your right to do so. But please have some respect for those of us who have found our place in life without surgery.

Sure, we have some regrets about the decisions we've made - but did we settle? Absolutely not.

There are other factors in our lives besides the presence or absence of a flap of skin between our legs. As Kimberly pointed out, our families are important to us - of equal or greater importance than some of our 'gender issues'. For me, to have 'transitioned' completely would have meant loosing my wife and children. This was a non-negotiable point: I wasn't then and am not now willing to give them up. For me, this meant finding and maintaining a balance - a compromise - between what I need and what my family needs. Sure, I could have walked away (as Kimberly could have) - but at what cost? For us, the price was too high - so we made a decision. And like all difficult decisions, it took us time to adjust to it.

Is it a perfect solution? Of course not, but it's works and it's livable - for us.

In many ways, the decision to not transition completely is more selfish - and difficult - than if we had just gone all the way. We have not only subjected ourselves to a potentially more difficult life, but we have done the same to our families as well - subjecting them to a life for which they never asked. Yet both sides - our families and us - make it work because we each consider the other worth the effort.

It doesn't make us better - just different.

Look, here's the bottom line: Pre-Op/Post-Op Transsexuals tend to have a very different mindset from the Non-Op Transsexuals and Transgenderists: we both walk different paths. As a rule, you are driven by a need for congruency between mind and body: that's all well and good and you should do what you need to do to be happy. Non-Ops and Transgenderists are not necessarily as driven like this. We have learned to live with / be comfortable with our bodies sans surgery for a variety of reasons. They are our reasons and you are in no position to pass judgement on them.

We each have to find the path which is right for us and sharing our experiences is the best way for that to happen. We don't presume to know what is right for you - so please afford us the same courtesy .

Love & Stuff,
Donna

[Ms. Donna]

I don't understand what you mean when you say that when the sex of the body has been corrected the person is not a TS anymore.

Most of the transsexual women with whom I have spoken do not consider themselves to be transgender. They are women in an anatomically incorrect body. After SRS, they do not identify as either TG or TS - they consider themselves to be normal women.

I don't necessarily agree with this, but it is how they have expressed their definition of themselves.

I've mostly heard post-op TSs still consider themselves TS since genetically they are still the opposite (trans) sex.

I'm not (nor do I ever) speaking in absolutes. There are those who feel as you say and I've spoken with them as well, but the vast majority I have encountered feel as above.

As I said earlier, it all depends on how deeply engrained one's belief in the Cisgender Ideal is.

Love & Stuff,
Donna

[tori-e]

Wow this thread is huge!

If you are TS or your So is TS..

A) To what extent do you (or does your SO) INTEND to transistion?

B) What steps have you (or your SO) taken so far?

Love, Hugs, & Thanx
~Kitty~

B) What I've done...
- lots of asthetics ie: hair removal
- voice therapy
- psych assesment
- HRT
- joined/attended support/social groups - this has helped big time
- come out to many people

A) What I want to do...
- finish electrolysis
- trachea shave
- rhinoplasty
- orchiectomy
- gain acceptance
- continue to grow as Tori - biggest one

GRS sounds great but seems like such a big deal from a health (and cost) standpoint. I keep thinking that you only NEED it if having a relationship with a man is important. But I like girls!

I've taken a quote from Donna Rose's website. http://www.donnarose.com/ I can relate to this so much....

"So many people seem to focus on the outdated perception that to be transsexual is simply about sex or gender - to become a man or a woman. Perhaps not surprisingly, many find this so far outside of their comprehension as to become unimaginable, unacceptable, unforgivable. A turning point in my own journey occurred after one of those "A-ha!" moments when everything suddenly seemed to make sense - when the realization struck me that it wasn't just about gender. It was about "self". This profoundly personal journey of fulfillment - that I neither asked for nor really wanted - was to become myself. The fact that gender - specifically the affect that it has on my interaction with the world and my perception of myself in it - was the key to unlock the door to my own personal sense of happiness is merely a component in that quest. It took a long, long time for me to understand that."

For me the "self" is Tori. So in a way I became myself sometime ago. All the other "transition" stuff is good but doesn't make me more me.

Tori

[Kimberley]

Hi Kehleyr
I think that the point Karen (and I) were trying to make is not that post ops are all unhappy with their transition but more with the circumstances of living past it. A lot of post ops still have the problems of facial presentation which of course can cost up to $100,000 worth of plastic surgery to alter while others pass quite easily without it or with only a little.
This presentation can cause some serious problems with discrimination, particularly in the workplace. Consider someone who was previously a construction worker now trying to find employment in the trades as a female. If she were hired, she would face a lot of discrimination either overt or covertly. I know the RLE is supposed to help with recognition of this sort of problem but it doesnt always. One of the post ops I spoke of was a tenured prof. After SRS the university built a case and let her go. She did sue and won but is still unemployed five years later. Today she tries to run a home based business helping TG's find their way. It barely pays her bills.
I think that each person is different and living in different circumstances so in that vein, perhaps the Benjamin Standards of Care are counterproductive. Much comes down to the medical people and their willingness to bend to the circumstance without allowing a candidate to unduly influence the process to the point of making a mistake. It is a fine line for everyone.


Kimberley.

[btmgrl6]

My arguement wasn't about the ones who choose not to transition for whatever reasons.......They have to do what's right for them. But then to come back and say that "it is too easy " or that they should just be happy with thier "true gender" and that "I read a study"...that says "most or a lot are unhappy sounds like they are saying. I have my reasons for [B]NOT[B]transitioning, so don't question me. However your reasons for transitioning are questionable.
As far as my reference to "the poster child"...it was just that, a reference, same as the original poster used. I didn't put anybody down.
Kimberly and I have different slants on some things.. we have since agreed...to disagree, in a friendly manner.

I aslo read a "study" that said after following 28 who underwent SRS for 5 years 28 out of 28 said that they were happy with thier decision. A pro right? There were also some cons in the study. So maybe,depending on our mind set...
it's easier to believe the part that goes along with our thinking,instead of looking at the whole picture and be objective....just a thought.

[GypsyKaren]

I've never heard anyone here say "don't question me" or imply it. Everyone is just giving their point of view, it's impossible to explain it all and wrong to take bits and pieces and try to make something out of it.

Let's just say that we all have our own reasons for being on the path we're on, and remember we're here to support one another, okay?

Karen

[~Dee~]

My fiancee's mother had a hysterectomy 30 odd years ago, as far as I'm aware she's still considered female. My friend born without a bladder and various reproductive bits is, as far as I'm aware, still considered female.

and im not saying that any of those people are not female so settle down would you. geez, youre making it sound like im attacking your whole whole family and all the people youve ever known.

you say that you are trans now and will be female later .. thats fine.
but you had said that its sort of a harsh thing to say and that women dont think like that .. well, i do .. the other few girls that are also transitioning or transitioned that i know also feel the way i do .. i know one other that thinks how you do .. all is fine.

i have a friend who is an amputee from his elbow joint down ... he has this nifty little attachment that allows him to use his arm, that the docs gave him .. does that mean he is not no longer an amputee?
im TS female now, ive come to the conclussion that this is who i am .. and like others i have my own personal path to go down in order to transition .. im transitioning because inside i dont feel like the person that i display to the world. im not complete.
after ive transitioned it still wont take away my past, my experiences, my life or make my body 100% genetically female. so when i choose to keep the term transexual female ... its not because i think its some stigma that i just have to carry around with me for the rest of my life.. its because im proud of where i came from and where i got to and im not ashamed of the fact that im TS by the end of it all.

if a blind man complained that 'that' wasn't good enough, that they weren't given proper sight, I'd call that ungrateful.

so are you thinking im being ungrateful now?
im not. im going through the grs .. and im amazed that they can do so much .. its great and wonderous to me.
just because i dont think it makes you a genetic girl doesnt mean that its a waste of time and money ..
id be grateful to be given the chance to go as far as it can take me .. but that doesnt mean that im going to ignore how i feel or who i was in the past.

You think my friend above wants kids? Tough, that's life, she deals with it, as best she can.

i have no idea what this was meant to prove or disprove.
im sorry that your friend cant have kids.
i cant have kids either and i know how it can be a hard hurdle to overcome.

As to pills, millions if not billions of women take the same pills every day, though for a different reason. Hardly a big thing to complain about, unless you think it unfair that women 'have' to take said pill at all.

and now im complaining about women ... oh my.
look maria, i dont know how you are reading this lot into what im writing ..
im mearly defending what me and my wife had written earlier.
if you think that transition changes you .. then thats fine, say whatever you want.
im just saying that unless there comes a time that they can swap me another body, then im not going to consider myself genetically female.
ill keep the TS part, cause im not about to throw out my wedding photos and ditch all those priceless memories that i have just to blend into society better.

now that ive stopped hurting over it, i dont mind being TS at all .. there are a hell of a lot worse things that i could be.

[~Kitty GG~]

DUDES!!!!! and I mean that in a totally non-gender way..

The purpose of this thread was to let everyone express what transitioning means to them.

To some its go all the way post-op. To others its understanding and accepting themselves and then presenting as the preferred or true gender. And to others its any of the gzillions points in between.

There are many reasons for this. Some of them are as unfair as a lack of money. Some are because of outside influences. Some are personal.

The reason that I personally asked Donna why someone who was TS but transitioned, would no longer consider themselves TS .. is because of the myriad of options for transition.

I wasn't thinking that only post-ops were women (sorry to an F2M's.. I'm using women as the example here.. ) I take the idea of "correcting the body" to mean to whatever degree you have chosen or are able to achieve. After all .. even a post-op can't take any height away.. or have surgery to correct the size of hands and feet.

What I was thinking is that Karen for example has completed her transition (I think..) and so does she now consider herself no longer TS? And Amelie has transitioned as far as she's able to go.. through no fault of her own.. so does that make her no longer TS?

Or is this just a privilege of post-ops? Cuz I don't see that post-ops are any more enlightened than any other TS.

What I was hearing back is that those who no longer wish to be considered TS really just don't want to be found out. They're actually living stealth. And some went so far as to say that all TSs would choose that.

I have to ask those who can speak for everyone else's feelings and preferences.. "what color IS the sky in your world?"

I have one final point on this.. IF said individuals consider themselves well and truly women.. NOT at all TS. Then why are they on this forum?

I felt rather insulted for all here who won't go all the way with transition, for any reason.. or who won't come out in the end absolutely passing. I think that many judge transition in those terms. While I judge transition this way: Find whatever is available and you are able and comfortable doing.. that will help you to be comfortable in your own skin.

So... those are my thoughts on the debates that have been raging in this thread.


Tori~
Thanx for answering. Hope you wore a hard hat when you entered.. LOL

GRS sounds great but seems like such a big deal from a health (and cost) standpoint. I keep thinking that you only NEED it if having a relationship with a man is important. But I like girls!

I agree that not everyone transitioning needs to go the GRS route.
Thanx for that quote. Its wonderful. I think I'll cut and paste it to keep handy.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Thanx for participating here, everyone.
I'm looking forward to hearing from more of you.

Love & Hugs
~Kitty~

[btmgrl6]

A point of view is one thing. Every situation is different as many have said. My beef is with these so called studies that are being quoted,and blanket statements that seem to cover us as a group..."a lot" are unhappy "most" regret. reading a single study, or the experiences of one or two people doesn't provide a true sample.
To me,(I may be wrong) mentioning the things like this ( the cons) are arguements against transitioning. Statements like "we should be happy with our true selves " sounds like it's against. Eons ago... we survived without Srs, why do we need it now...Sounds a lot like against.Sounds alot like I am happy without transitioning...why can't you be too? If that is just your opinion come right out and say that this is how I feel about me... don't make a statement that cover the rest of us or, "most" of us ,or even a "a lot" of us...because if you are not "most" or "all" or even "alot of us"...how can you know, and how can you say?

MsDonna

I never questioned anyones's reasons for not transistioning.....my arguement was for those who question for transitioning.

Steph