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Thread: An Observation

  1. #1
    Body Piercer RevMoonSerpent's Avatar
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    An Observation

    I've noticed that a general statement in a lot of places is that there are no female cross dressers because a woman can wear mens garments and not have a problem. I'm not saying that statement applies to anyone here but, you can find it all over the media.
    As an FtM I have noticed that when I go out dressed in all mens stuff people still tend to watch you just as much and not always assuming that you are a lesbian.
    For example when I met my best friends husband the first thing he asked her when I left was why I was in all guys clothes.
    So here is my main observation. If you are a woman and wear a pair of mens pants or a guys shirt mixed with any other type of womans apparel it's really no big deal but, If you happen to be dressed from head to toe in mens stuff, without going the extra mile to bind your breasts and pack you do get noticed and can turn some heads.
    Does anyone else see this?
    Vampires are real, just not how you picture them to be.

  2. #2
    oysters = kneecaps Abraxas's Avatar
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    Nobody's ever said anything to or about me relating directly to that, as far as I know. There have been times when I've come out to people (either saying, "I'm trans," or "guess what, I'm actually a female") and they kind of go, "oh, okay, I was wondering about that..."
    Closest I've come is I went over to my friend's boyfriend's house for dinner, and as I was leaving, my friend introduced me to her boyfriend's roommate, briefly. We just said hi to each other and I left. She told me that as soon as I left, he'd said, "Is he straight?" And she said, "well, he's a she," and he apparently replied, "yeah, there was something a little odd about his aura."
    So, I don't know if that counts or not lol
    Yes-- socks! Run out again! Why is it that no matter how many millions of pairs of socks I buy, I never seem to have any? They just... disappear. Honestly, you'd think someone was coming in here, stealing the damn things, and selling them off. . . For me, socks are like sex: tons of it about, and I never seem to get any.


  3. #3
    Swishy Pirate CaptLex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ladymoonserpent
    I've noticed that a general statement in a lot of places is that there are no female cross dressers because a woman can wear mens garments and not have a problem. I'm not saying that statement applies to anyone here but, you can find it all over the media.
    As an FtM I have noticed that when I go out dressed in all mens stuff people still tend to watch you just as much and not always assuming that you are a lesbian. . . . Does anyone else see this?
    Oh man, if I had a dollar for everytime I've heard that (and that's just on this site), I'd might have enough saved up for SRS by now (or at least a cruise to the Caribbean).

    I'm guessing Abraxas may not get as many looks as I do because he passes so much better, but I know what you mean. I get looks everyday and people who have known me for a long time are now starting to ask questions (they don't dare ask me, so they approach my poor cousin who is tired of telling them to mind their own business). I just tell myself that if they're looking at me with that "is that a he or a she?" glance, then I must be doing something right. But I wish just once somebody would call me "sir" instead of "ma'am".
    But why is the rum gone?! - Capt. Jack Sparrow [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl[/SIZE]

    Why is the rum always gone? - Capt. Jack Sparrow [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest[/SIZE]

    Why is all but the rum gone? No, the rum's gone too . . .
    - [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: At World End[/SIZE]

    [SIZE="3"]Lex on the Beach[/SIZE]. . . [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  4. #4
    Gender Undecided Fainne the King's Avatar
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    People straight up ask me things like this. When I first got a really short haircut, a girl in my class said to me "you look like a boy. Do you like girls?" And I get comments like "do you want to be a boy or something?" and "wow, you're really a tomboy, huh?" And a girl in one of my classes recently noticed I keep my wallet in my back pocket and said "you keep your wallet like that? You're a boy." I don't usually take it rude, I just laugh and say, yeah, I am a boy.
    And honestly, I don't generally wear all mens clothes, just jeans and a t-shirt. I guess that's lesbonic enough for the super prissy girls around here.
    I tried to be a boy
    tried to be a girl
    tried to be a mess
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  5. #5
    The Wayward Wren's Avatar
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    ****ers
    It's like us saying that men don't count as people because they've never suffered pursecution in the way that women have. It's just as ridiculous. No one should judge before actually doing it and I warrant the only people saying that are people who have never been in close proximity with a femal to male crossdresser.

    And again with the lesbian thing. Can we please refrain.

    Edit
    Wow, rereading that I sound like a frigid cow. My, my it's not meant as harshly as it seems. Moooooo.
    Last edited by Wren; 05-01-2006 at 10:44 PM.
    Two monks were watching a flag flapping in the wind. One said to the other, "The flag is moving."
    The other replied, "The wind is moving."
    Huineng overheard this. He said, "Not the flag, not the wind; mind is moving."

  6. #6
    Bandit Keith sparro's Avatar
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    I get stared at. Especially in washrooms.

    I am not dressed in mens clothes, I am trying to look like a man.

    I am getting really tired of this "we've got it harder, no we do!" thing. And to go so far as to say something doesn't exist. Now I've got myself going on theories of existence, which makes me mad.
    MtF and FtM do experience their situations in the same way, but of course it's going to vary from one to the other. Where one has a harder time here, another will there. Face it, if you're either openly in society it will often suck, no matter which you are, no matter who you are. We need less questioning of eachother and pooping on eachother and more group HUGS! AH!

  7. #7
    Swishy Pirate CaptLex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparro
    Face it, if you're either openly in society it will often suck, no matter which you are, no matter who you are. We need less questioning of eachother and pooping on eachother and more group HUGS! AH!
    Amen to that, brother. Here you go, Sparro . . .
    But why is the rum gone?! - Capt. Jack Sparrow [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl[/SIZE]

    Why is the rum always gone? - Capt. Jack Sparrow [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest[/SIZE]

    Why is all but the rum gone? No, the rum's gone too . . .
    - [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: At World End[/SIZE]

    [SIZE="3"]Lex on the Beach[/SIZE]. . . [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  8. #8
    The Wayward Wren's Avatar
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    We need less questioning of eachother and pooping on eachother and more group HUGS! AH!
    Yay verilly!


    and on a diatribe. It sucks my face off how we have to be boys on the FTM forum and ladies on the MTF. I wanna be me, and me is a bady or a loy, hehe that sounds dumb.
    Two monks were watching a flag flapping in the wind. One said to the other, "The flag is moving."
    The other replied, "The wind is moving."
    Huineng overheard this. He said, "Not the flag, not the wind; mind is moving."

  9. #9
    Swishy Pirate CaptLex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wren
    I wanna be me, and me is a bady or a loy, hehe that sounds dumb.
    You can be whatever you want, Wren. No labels, no restrictions, no judgements.
    But why is the rum gone?! - Capt. Jack Sparrow [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl[/SIZE]

    Why is the rum always gone? - Capt. Jack Sparrow [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest[/SIZE]

    Why is all but the rum gone? No, the rum's gone too . . .
    - [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: At World End[/SIZE]

    [SIZE="3"]Lex on the Beach[/SIZE]. . . [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  10. #10
    The Wayward Wren's Avatar
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    Okay, when I said let's refrain from the lesbian thing what I meant is :

    Stop comparing boyish clothing and a manlyish appearance to being a lesbian. Does anyone realize what a stereotype (an offensive one) you are all putting forth?
    Two monks were watching a flag flapping in the wind. One said to the other, "The flag is moving."
    The other replied, "The wind is moving."
    Huineng overheard this. He said, "Not the flag, not the wind; mind is moving."

  11. #11
    androgeny (I wish) julz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wren
    Stop comparing boyish clothing and a manlyish appearance to being a lesbian. Does anyone realize what a stereotype (an offensive one) you are all putting forth?
    I completely agree. It is insulting to both the lesbian community and the gender community. Not all lesbians like typical "man-ish" things, and not all women who do like those things are lesbians. It doesn't work either way.

  12. #12
    Body Piercer RevMoonSerpent's Avatar
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    Perhaps my original post was not worded in a way that people would get my meaning that I was trying to create with the thread.
    The first part of the original thread was describing how the masses view us in general. That there are no FtM cross dressers because women can wear mens cloths. That is not my view on things but how society sees us.
    Now to the "lesbian thing" as you pointed out Wren is very offensive and stereotypical but, as spoken before it is a general view of the public. What people don't take the time to understand they put a generic label on.
    Finally, a lot of us find the label just as offensive as you do especially when referred to as such in public but, as I said mentioning it was to make a point at how others see us not how we see ourselves.
    The thread was not meant to cause hostility amongst the group but, I've heard so many sob stories about how MtF's can't go out in public because people stare and want to know why they wear womens cloths etc. I can understand that and I simpathize but, my main issue was to see if those types of reactions happen to us as an FtM.
    I get the looks and it isn't a sexual preference generalization but an actual clothing choice stare.
    So, I hope this post clears things up a little more and can put an end to the negativity that has been some what of a reaction since starting this thread. It was not meant as such.
    Vampires are real, just not how you picture them to be.

  13. #13
    Do you have that in pink? Julie Avery's Avatar
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    I am personally of the opinion that the "girls can crossdress, boys can't" is lame. It's usually pointed to a woman in denim pants by a man wearing breast forms. I think that about tells the story.

    I might also add that I worked with a couple of FTM's in telecommunications, a few years back, and I assumed they were lesbians because they crossdressed, even though I'm a crossdresser and know (now) how silly that assumption is.

    May we all live long enough to become wise!
    "Inside of every old person is a young person wondering what the hell happened."

    "The best thing about the MBasic that comes with the Kaypro is that it allows variable names longer than two characters."

  14. #14
    Senior Member Jennaie's Avatar
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    It's really not true that girls can crossdress and not be noticed. A woman who is crossdressed and is still wearing makeup and looking very fem in her male clothing is not going to attract attention. A woman who is wearing no makeup and looks, carries herself in a masculine manner who is dressed in a male way is going to see some attention.

    What it all boils down to is this, no matter how hard a man tries, he is a man and no matter how hard a woman tries, she is a woman. There are very few of us who can actually go out there and "pass" as the other sex, regardless of how bad we want it.

    I have seen some mtf's who look like girls, but very few. It's a cage we are stuck in, and when we try to escape from it, people notice.

    I am in the group hug.
    [SIZE="3"]Jennaie`[/SIZE]

  15. #15
    Swishy Pirate CaptLex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julie Avery
    I am personally of the opinion that the "girls can crossdress, boys can't" is lame. . . . May we all live long enough to become wise!
    You are already very wise, my friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennaie
    It's a cage we are stuck in, and when we try to escape from it, people notice. I am in the group hug.
    Here's one from me, Jennaie . . . You ladies rock!
    But why is the rum gone?! - Capt. Jack Sparrow [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl[/SIZE]

    Why is the rum always gone? - Capt. Jack Sparrow [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest[/SIZE]

    Why is all but the rum gone? No, the rum's gone too . . .
    - [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: At World End[/SIZE]

    [SIZE="3"]Lex on the Beach[/SIZE]. . . [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  16. #16
    Queen of the Vegetomboys NightFox87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wren
    Okay, when I said let's refrain from the lesbian thing what I meant is :

    Stop comparing boyish clothing and a manlyish appearance to being a lesbian. Does anyone realize what a stereotype (an offensive one) you are all putting forth?

    Thank you. People have been accusing me of being a lesbian because I wear guys' clothes since I was 12 years old. I'm not a lesbian, I'm a tomboy. They are not one in the same.:mad:

  17. #17
    keira
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    Question denial

    Quote Originally Posted by Wren
    Okay, when I said let's refrain from the lesbian thing what I meant is :

    Stop comparing boyish clothing and a manlyish appearance to being a lesbian. Does anyone realize what a stereotype (an offensive one) you are all putting forth?
    Wren, After reading many of your posts, sorry to say, but to me it sounds like you are a lesbian in denial. I hope you have support and guidance to deal with this.
    I know, as I once denied that I was gay, and only "trying on" a new identity. Not only is it futile, but it hurts you and those around you that you may claim to care about.
    You can email me anytime if you need help or advice, I've been there!!
    Hugs,
    Keira


  18. #18
    keira
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    Quote Originally Posted by ladymoonserpent
    I've noticed that a general statement in a lot of places is that there are no female cross dressers because a woman can wear mens garments and not have a problem. I'm not saying that statement applies to anyone here but, you can find it all over the media.
    As an FtM I have noticed that when I go out dressed in all mens stuff people still tend to watch you just as much and not always assuming that you are a lesbian.
    For example when I met my best friends husband the first thing he asked her when I left was why I was in all guys clothes.
    So here is my main observation. If you are a woman and wear a pair of mens pants or a guys shirt mixed with any other type of womans apparel it's really no big deal but, If you happen to be dressed from head to toe in mens stuff, without going the extra mile to bind your breasts and pack you do get noticed and can turn some heads.
    Does anyone else see this?
    Hi Ladymoonserpent

    I am new to this forum but am happy to have found it, quite by accident!
    I live in a small town and have to be very careful about how I come across
    to people as far as dress goes. My partner and I are not openly gay in the general community, just out of fear of the unwanted attention we may receive from the redneck component! We do circulate in the gay community when we visit Vancouver though. The way we dress does change a little bit I must admit, depending upon the circumstances of our location!

    Hugs,
    Keira

  19. #19
    The Wayward Wren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keira
    Wren, After reading many of your posts, sorry to say, but to me it sounds like you are a lesbian in denial. I hope you have support and guidance to deal with this.
    I know, as I once denied that I was gay, and only "trying on" a new identity. Not only is it futile, but it hurts you and those around you that you may claim to care about.
    You can email me anytime if you need help or advice, I've been there!!
    Hugs,
    Keira

    Hello...ummm okay if you had read my posts you would know that I do not really identify as anything because it's extremely complicated. I am with an FTM so technically that's a women right. And I had a really long thought about my feelings and my sexuality. I don't really want to e-mail you or in fact like you, because all though you were trying to be supportive you just ruined my day. I can't stand the lesbian bashing because it's annoying. I don't like any type of bashing because it's extremely offensive. I don't appreciate being told that because I have strong morals and values that I am in denial. You could have sent me a PM about this, but because you put it on the forum I will too. and probably make a few enemies. good day to you.

    and also thank you for setting a wonderful example that if someone speaks up in honour of a certain group than they MUST be LABELLED as that, in this case a lesbian. Thank you again for pointing out my personal error against the way that I identify.

    I was mislead to believe that this was a haven where I could be who I am, and identify as I liked without being called to error. I deal with being called a bunch of things that I am not all the time, I do not need this. I don't feel comfortable on this forum anymore. It does not offend me that you called me a lesbian it offends me that you are telling me that I am wrong in how I see myself. I am not a lesbian because I like men, I am not straight because I have a female to male boyfriend. Why am I with an FTM if I like boys. Well mull over that one and think about what your posting next time.
    Last edited by Wren; 05-30-2006 at 11:41 PM.
    Two monks were watching a flag flapping in the wind. One said to the other, "The flag is moving."
    The other replied, "The wind is moving."
    Huineng overheard this. He said, "Not the flag, not the wind; mind is moving."

  20. #20
    Bandit Keith sparro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keira
    Hi Ladymoonserpent
    Wren, After reading many of your posts, sorry to say, but to me it sounds like you are a lesbian in denial. I hope you have support and guidance to deal with this.
    I know, as I once denied that I was gay, and only "trying on" a new identity. Not only is it futile, but it hurts you and those around you that you may claim to care about.
    You can email me anytime if you need help or advice, I've been there!!
    Hugs,
    Keira

    That's a kind of insensitive and assuming thing to say. To me, it just seemed that she was trying to make the forum more comfortable for lesbians/everybody else. I identify as homosexual, and it's always bothered me that people going on saying things like "Because I wear mens clothes everybody thought I was a lesbian and I was sad". There are a few reasons those comments bother me, most of all that it makes it seem as though homosexuality is a negative thing (it may be said with the best of intentions, but still come out as an insult to me).

    No one is in any position to tell a person that they are in denial about themselves so blantantly. On a public forum it's embarassing and demeaning. This is the sort of personnal comment PMs are meant for (even though I'm assuming you had the best intentions).
    Last edited by sparro; 05-31-2006 at 12:08 AM.

  21. #21
    Dr House Rule's Adam's Avatar
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    hi Keira

    ok so theres one of two things here eather you are uncareing or you are not thinking things thu before you post no one has the right to guess or tell others how they are feeling just because maybe you went thu denial does not mean that someone else is becuase everyone is differnt so i would ask you in future to eather keep your judgement to yourself or pm the person in private because it can be very upsetting if you go into a forum and someones posted something about you that isent right!!!

    Anyways as you are new here i guess you dident really do this to be nasty but please give a little thought about things before you post about someone else

  22. #22
    Swishy Pirate CaptLex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keira
    Wren, After reading many of your posts, sorry to say, but to me it sounds like you are a lesbian in denial. I hope you have support and guidance to deal with this.
    Keira,

    I'm thinking that maybe you meant to be helpful, but I can totally understand why this post is upsetting to Wren and others here. I think we've all come here to share what we have in common and, unless we ask for help, information and/or advice, it's not cool for anyone to tell another what they are or how they should deal with their situation. Just my 0.02


    Quote Originally Posted by sparro
    I identify as homosexual, and it's always bothered me that people going on saying things like "Because I wear mens clothes everybody thought I was a lesbian and I was sad". There are a few reasons those comments bother me, most of all that it makes it seem as though homosexuality is a negative thing (it may be said with the best of intentions, but still come out as an insult to me).
    Sparro,

    I'm one of those that has said I'm tired of people assuming I'm lesbian because I wear male clothing, and I apologize if my comments have been insensitive or rude. The only reason I've ever mentioned it is because I feel that I'm invisible as an FtM when people make this assumption, not because I'm insulted by the generalization. Again, I'm sorry if this was demeaning to you.
    Last edited by CaptLex; 05-31-2006 at 10:01 AM.
    But why is the rum gone?! - Capt. Jack Sparrow [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl[/SIZE]

    Why is the rum always gone? - Capt. Jack Sparrow [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest[/SIZE]

    Why is all but the rum gone? No, the rum's gone too . . .
    - [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: At World End[/SIZE]

    [SIZE="3"]Lex on the Beach[/SIZE]. . . [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  23. #23
    boi - gurl - whatever... Ms. Donna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wren
    Hello...ummm okay if you had read my posts you would know that I do not really identify as anything because it's extremely complicated.
    Right there with you. It is complicated most often, all the lables in the world can not capture the essense of how we feel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wren
    I can't stand the lesbian bashing because it's annoying. I don't like any type of bashing because it's extremely offensive. I don't appreciate being told that because I have strong morals and values that I am in denial.
    I've been told that as well - being in denial. In fast, I'll hazard a guess that most all of us have heard that at lease once - and if not yet, it will happen. People like to believe that their way is the right way. And while most are well intentioned, they are often blind to the fact that everyone's situation is different: there is no 'one size fits all' solution - besides, one size fits all applies only to earrings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wren
    and also thank you for setting a wonderful example that if someone speaks up in honour of a certain group than they MUST be LABELLED as that, in this case a lesbian.
    This is a problem - not just in this case - but in general. People simply can not grasp the notion of understanding and supporting people who are different than themselves. It's all very selfish: "I'm not gay, why should I go to a pride rally?" They do not see that supporting the rights of one group is supporting the rights of everyone. Very sad...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wren
    I was mislead to believe that this was a haven where I could be who I am, and identify as I liked without being called to error. I deal with being called a bunch of things that I am not all the time, I do not need this. I don't feel comfortable on this forum anymore. It does not offend me that you called me a lesbian it offends me that you are telling me that I am wrong in how I see myself.
    T-shirt quote: "Mean people suck!" If you get hung up on them, your life will suck as well.

    While Keira's observations may not have come across well, I suspect the intent was not to offend. I'd suggest it be chalked up to a bad first start and everyone try again. Bog knows I've not always come across as 'articulate' as I'd like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wren
    I am not a lesbian because I like men, I am not straight because I have a female to male boyfriend. Why am I with an FTM if I like boys. Well mull over that one and think about what your posting next time.
    This is very merky area for transpeople. Gay/Lesbian/Straight is a sexual preference thing - although what we call sexual attraction is usually gender attraction. I'm attracted to what is stereotypically feminine, and it took me awhile to reconcile that it doesn't seem to matter what sex is making that presentation. Does this make me hetero / homo / bi / pan / whatever-sexual? I suppose it only matters to the extent I want it to matter. Add to this the fact that I have come to see 'beauty' in rather ambiguously gendered persons as well and... As I started this post, let's just say that the current set of labels available falls short in being able to capture the essense of how we feel.

    Love & Stuff,
    Donna
    Just your average transgender non-op transsexual
    crossdressing genderqueer transgenderist geek.


    [SIZE="1"]The obligatory blog: http://wanderingaloud.wordpress.com/[/SIZE]

  24. #24
    Haley Pink~
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    Hmmm?

    Just a little about people I know.

    I know a lesbian couple very well. One of them is the Dom male figure. She likes to be called by her female given name but is not a
    f2m. She tells you right off She's a lesbian, and proud of it. She dresses like a man top to bottom. Never any makeup. Does She get noticed. Maybe! But She does not care. As They say " It's their way, their culture". They have said that many times around myself and others. But I think every couple differs a little as do individual people.

    A Gay male couple I know quite well. The Dom, He's very Male. Then sub She's a Cross Dresses M2F. . She's not interested in SRS. As She'd say " Ever ". Very nice people to hang with. Also very cool to talk to. Do they get looks? Yes! One reason is She is beautiful, I mean beautiful! She'd be a 9 pluss Hunny, on a scale from 1 to 10. Always dressed nice, and is quite slim. Passes? Yes She does. So as for getting looks in a Mall, they could care. But that was a topic one time we talked about.
    0.02
    Haley P. Kemp

  25. #25
    Haley Pink~
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Donna

    And while most are well intentioned, they are often blind to the fact that everyone's situation is different: there is no 'one size fits all' solution - besides, one size fits all applies only to earrings.


    This is a problem - not just in this case - but in general. People simply can not grasp the notion of understanding and supporting people who are different than themselves. It's all very selfish: "I'm not gay, why should I go to a pride rally?" They do not see that supporting the rights of one group is supporting the rights of everyone. Very sad...


    T-shirt quote: "Mean people suck!" If you get hung up on them, your life will suck as well.



    Love & Stuff,
    Donna

    Ms. Donna:

    I love the ideas you bring to light. We all don't fit any mold. We are all modifications to a theme.
    Haley P. Kemp

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