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Thread: Morality in Question?? A thought Provoking Discussion.

  1. #1
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    Morality in Question?? A thought Provoking Discussion.

    Ok, So I am thumbing through some posts and I come across alot of comments about conservative vs open-minded, or liberal vs. opressive.

    Since when did CD'ing become have to be political issue?
    I realize that many people want acceptance. And it would be nice to be able to walk down the street in a skirt and not to be laughed or made a mockery of. But at the same time do you honestly think our society, nay our humanity as a whole has the capacity to do so? For shit's sake, I know people that are all left liberal looney people that have rally's and go to conventions about energy conservation and save the whales etc etc etc, and what do they do on the weekends? Go out a drink, go and pay 20 dollars to see a damn movie spend 50k on a car and then bitch cause no one is helping humanity.
    Don't misunderstand me, I am hardly saying that we arent all a little hipocritical. But using that as an example, what makes anyone think that society would ever be accepting in our liftime?

    So the morality kicks in. When does acceptance cross the line of morality?
    By morality I mean what is appropriate for society to develope without turning inward on itself.

    I will be the 1st to admit. I am a conservative politically, and if I could pass as a female in public I would do so. I personally couldnt care less if gay's want to marry or join the military. As a former active Marine, I say "here's a gun and a guy, go go go"
    Point is, why does one need a public barrage of acceptance in order to make change? Now don't read into this, but the last time a society tried to push principles of acceptance to the rest it incited World War 2.
    No I am not calling anyone a Nazi. I am asking if the pushing for acceptance is going to cause more harm than good?

    Where do we draw the line that separates what we want with what is best?
    here is something we can all agree on,
    Society as a whole would laugh if a guy with a beard was wearing a dress. But we accept women wearing pants as a norm.
    If you were to go way way way way back to a whopping 150 years ago, a woman wearing pants (or knickers as they were so called then) was virtually unheard of. In fact I dont think it was until "womens lib" that started to set things in motion for that to happen. Maybe the 50's?
    So. If women can wait, why can't we? Should we?

    Hopefully I created some sort of thought provoking stimuli.
    Your thoughts welcome.
    Kryss

  2. #2
    ~Kitty~s girly ~Dee~'s Avatar
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    I must admit to being a bit befuddled by this whole post.
    i dont really see a thought provoking debate actually... so maybe im losing the essence somewhere.
    mind you, i also never see the need for profanity just slung in there to seemingly make some kind of statement of expression .. but anyhow.

    i do agree that society as a generalisation is not really the most forgiving thing. it doesnt tend to like change.. it tends to like to stay in its own little comfort zone.

    now, i dont claim to be critical or political .. but who exactly are we waiting for? .. or what maybe ?? ..
    womens lib wasnt just a scheduled process that everyone was waiting for to help change things. it was a bunch of people with ideas on how to change things ..
    how does that saying go ..."I cannot say whether things will get better if we change; what I can say is they must change if they are to get better."

    people who wish rights basically have to stand up and be heard.. yes society might fight it, it does tend to do so .. but its a matter of who has greater resolve i guess.

    im TS, so should i hide away and wait for someone to liberate me?
    i dont think so..
    i know that the views of most of the people who ive come out to have changed .. before me talking with them they had pretty much no real idea what a TS was ... now, they know one .. they can sympathise with what i have had to go through and what im going through now.
    who else was going to change their minds, if not me?
    whos responsibility is that?
    i want to live in a society that can accept transexuality .. therefore i have to do something about it. even if this is on a small community scale.

    as for this being a "humanity" problem .. i dont think thats all that accurate .. it might be that your community or your society might discriminate against certain types of people, but i wouldnt to presume to tell other cultures what they are thinking.
    there are many cultures that do accept transgendered people.
    and im pretty sure they are still part of humanity as a whole.

    and i dont quite see how trying to change a societys views suddenly bears any likeness to the nazi movement.
    the uk recently started accepting gay unions .. and it was all done without having to invade poland.
    social reforms and changes in policy are all valid things for progress in society..
    thats hardly cramming something down someones throat and telling them how it should be or else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryss
    Society as a whole would laugh if a guy with a beard was wearing a dress.
    i think there is a certain butterfly that would probably take issue on this comment... and rightly so to.

    Dee the befuddled.
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  3. #3
    GypsyKaren
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    I don't know if I get it either. I do know that I'm not waiting on anything from anybody, be it acceptance or freedom or whatever. I could really care less what society or humanity thinks about me, it's my life, not theirs.

    I suppose that whenever I'm read when I go out and people see that I'm not a monster, that I'm "furthering" our cause and educating the public, but that's not my goal. I mean, it's all well and good, I suppose, but I'm not interested in being a flag bearer. I've already fought my share of battles and such to get where I'm at in life, and I prefer to let the young ones pick up the sword and carry on.

    As far as women wearing pants, I'm really sick of that whole topic, and to equate that with womens lib is ridiculous. For generations women, and all minorites for that matter, were treated as second class citizens whose main right was to serve Caucasian males. These people fought long and hard for equality in voting and justice in the workplace, I seriously doubt that wanting to wear an article of clothing for comfort and convenience had much to do with it..

    Karen

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    Living and Enjoying Life Kristen Kelly's Avatar
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    Aah!My life!! Sonia_cd's Avatar
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    uuhhh....

    Excuse me....exactly what is it that you are tryin to say Kryss?? I read that twice and thoughts have certainly been provoked.....except its a thought called total confusion!!!!

    I would really like it if you could explain what the essence of your post is.

    Thanks,
    Sonia

  6. #6
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    HI Kryss,

    wow for this being your 4th posts, well let's just say that you sure know how to prokove a discussion....or a confusion..... not sure which this will turn into yet.

    To me this is one of those posts that should have be re-read a couple of times before posting.

    I am not sure what you are getting at. But i will take a stab:

    I am betting you are someone who feels a bit trapped {as do many} by society's rules. You state that if you indeed passed you would go out. To me that is the core problem you are faced with. Becasue you might be ridiculed or hasseled you feel like you are possibly being denied opportunities. Truth is you could go out if you wanted. You could get on a flight ot drive a car to the nearest and furtherest major city, rent a room and enquire about a suppport group that has meetings or activities and get the chance to enjoy yourself. But you have not taken these steps, I gather. If I am wrong I aplogize, but to me your posts sounds like someone who has yet to explore the world outside of their home en femme.

    So you are angry. To me yoru anger shows in your posts, not only with your use of the *four letter* words but in your overall train of thought.

    It sounds to me like you won't ever be one of those people helping to further the tg movement because you fear what others will think of you. You see it as a pointless endevour just like your friends trying to save the whales. I think you also sort of have wahsed your hands at society ever acepting this without some violent movement taking place.

    To me you are a person who sits on the sidelines of something that seems so far out of reach yet makes you angry because it does in a way defeats what you stand for {you called yoruself conservative}.

    To me you seem like a person torn between thier learned value system and something that is deep with in your soul.

    Does trans issues and such have to be political?....sometimes it does. When it comes to moving ideas and laws forward.

    There are people in this community who spend their life trying to get bills passed, get legislation moved, and rally and show up in cities anytime a trans sex worker is killed or a person being fired because they are trans. Thank goodness we have people like this. We have people who go on television and allow to be interviewed, who write books, and people who are 'out' there in a real way. I dont' think they have let society's non-acceptance stop them. Eventually things will change. Each of us in our own small way can help, even if it is just educating one person who never heard of this stuff.

    Well.....I hope that if anything reading more on this forum will give you some courage to start being you and not being afraid of standing up for your rights as well. Most minority groups sometime in history have to do this.....

  7. #7
    Miss Conception Karren Hutton's Avatar
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    I supose there are some extreme crossdressers out there pushing for social acceptance on a global scale. And maybe they are the ones that go to these meeting and ralleys that I don't go to! But I think for the majority of us girls it's more of a personal thing and acceptance by close family and friends would be a giant step forward. Personally when I'm out and about enfemme I could care less if someone doesn't agree with how I dress. And if they want to chalenge me, fine. I'll hike up my dress and kick their ass. Hehehe.

    Society will always look down on something or someone. That's never going to change. And I don't really equate morality with social acceptence or with being conservative or liberal! Kind of mutually exclusive in my opinion.

    But we can save the environment if each one of us takes a diet soda can and puts in in their purse and never opens it!! That way there will be less CO2 released into the atmosphere!! LOL. Sorry, bad engineering humor!

    Love Karren
    Last edited by Karren Hutton; 06-09-2006 at 08:43 AM.
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    24/7 knicker wearer Helen MC's Avatar
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    Ok from this (UK) side of the Pond.

    I have been into crossdressing since my early teens, panties 24/7 other female clothing indoors only and am otherwise heterosexual. On sexual issues I am Liberal.

    On Economic and Employment and Landlord V Tenant issues I am left of centre even Socialist, However in issues such as Law and Order, Defence, Education, Political Correctness, I am right-wing, far more so the the current Conservative Party under David Cameron in the UK. I am in favour of the Death Penalty and Corporal Punishment, and harsh prison sentences which punish rather than rehabilitate criminals, however unlike many on the Right I am in favour of Free Abortion on Demand, Euthanasia, Cloning and Stem Cell Research. So I do not fit into any of the standard stereotypes.
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  9. #9
    Member Sophia Rearen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kryss
    In fact I dont think it was until "womens lib" that started to set things in motion for that to happen. Maybe the 50's?
    So. If women can wait, why can't we? Should we?

    Kryss
    Based on this time table, if I have to wait 50 years for "CD lib", I'll be 93 years old. Something about me sitting in a rocker with my stockings unravelled and gathered at my ankles doesn't appeal to me. I want it today, not tomorrow. Crossdressing when your dead isn't fun.
    Last edited by Sophia Rearen; 06-09-2006 at 01:22 PM.
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  10. #10
    Administrator Tamara Croft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kryss
    Since when did CD'ing become have to be political issue?
    Can you show us some examples on this forum regarding CD'ing becoming a political issue? Because, as far as I see it, it's society that has a problem, nothing to do with politics.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kryss
    Here is something we can all agree on. Society as a whole would laugh if a guy with a beard was wearing a dress. But we accept women wearing pants as a norm.
    All?? I don't agree, I think this statement is quite insulting. You can't speak on behalf of everyone and a few members of this forum have beards and crossdress, they like any other member here are accepted. To read that you would laugh at a person with a beard, wearing a dress, is quite ironic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kryss
    But using that as an example, what makes anyone think that society would ever be accepting in our liftime?
    What are you doing? are you out there, or just bitching on this forum?
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  11. #11
    Adventuress Kate Simmons's Avatar
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    Guys in dresses

    I think guys who wear dresses and have beards are pretty cool. Haven't tried that one yet but am thinking about it. What they show me is they really have courage and fortitude for being themselves. I accept them as I do any other member for who they are as individuals and appreciate their input as well. Ericka

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    Quiet Member ReginaK's Avatar
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    I'm too old to wait 50 years for acceptance.

    But honestly, I couldn't care less about people accepting me as a crossdresser. Life is too short to live it for other people. Acceptance would be nice, but it's not priority. I'm more concerned about the legal side of the issue. Society doesn't have to accept crossdressing, but the law should protect them so they can work, move about through the world, and live without fear.
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  13. #13
    Rainbow Rennie Butterfly Bill's Avatar
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    Acceptance from 90 and a big number % of the people you meet is right now. I am a man in a beard and a dress, and I don't get laughed at. (Well, sometines teenage girls giggle, but it's more of the time because they think it's cute, not contempible). All you have to do is do it.

    (Perhaps the earliest time when large numbers of women (outside of China) started to wear trousers was in World War I, when a lot of them took factory jobs because their husbands were away in the service. Avant garde women continued to wear them into the 20s. This was repeated in the second war, and more women continued afterward. But it wasn't until the introduction of the pants suit in the 70s that they became business proper everywhere.)

  14. #14
    Do you have that in pink? Julie Avery's Avatar
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    The longer I live, the more I become convinced that "morality" is essentially concerned with compassion, not rules.

    Rules have their place, to prevent passionate violations of compassion.

    I certainly don't mean to say, "If it feels good, do it."

    But I certainly do mean to say, if the only one hurt by your act is a busybody who wouldn't be affected if they were minding their own businesss and not yours, then you are morally justified in going for what makes you happy.
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  15. #15
    Toyah Toyah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kryss
    Ok, So I am thumbing through some posts and I come across alot of comments about conservative vs open-minded, or liberal vs. opressive.

    Since when did CD'ing become have to be political issue?
    I realize that many people want acceptance. And it would be nice to be able to walk down the street in a skirt and not to be laughed or made a mockery of. But at the same time do you honestly think our society, nay our humanity as a whole has the capacity to do so? For shit's sake, I know people that are all left liberal looney people that have rally's and go to conventions about energy conservation and save the whales etc etc etc, and what do they do on the weekends? Go out a drink, go and pay 20 dollars to see a damn movie spend 50k on a car and then bitch cause no one is helping humanity.
    Don't misunderstand me, I am hardly saying that we arent all a little hipocritical. But using that as an example, what makes anyone think that society would ever be accepting in our liftime?

    So the morality kicks in. When does acceptance cross the line of morality?
    By morality I mean what is appropriate for society to develope without turning inward on itself.

    I will be the 1st to admit. I am a conservative politically, and if I could pass as a female in public I would do so. I personally couldnt care less if gay's want to marry or join the military. As a former active Marine, I say "here's a gun and a guy, go go go"
    Point is, why does one need a public barrage of acceptance in order to make change? Now don't read into this, but the last time a society tried to push principles of acceptance to the rest it incited World War 2.
    No I am not calling anyone a Nazi. I am asking if the pushing for acceptance is going to cause more harm than good?

    Where do we draw the line that separates what we want with what is best?
    here is something we can all agree on,
    Society as a whole would laugh if a guy with a beard was wearing a dress. But we accept women wearing pants as a norm.
    If you were to go way way way way back to a whopping 150 years ago, a woman wearing pants (or knickers as they were so called then) was virtually unheard of. In fact I dont think it was until "womens lib" that started to set things in motion for that to happen. Maybe the 50's?
    So. If women can wait, why can't we? Should we?

    Hopefully I created some sort of thought provoking stimuli.
    Your thoughts welcome.
    Kryss
    With you 100 percent here we have to accept what we have and try not to upset too many people by shoving ourselves in their noses.
    Ok we should try to make society a little more accepting but its not gonna happen in my lifetime and making unsupportable laws wont help

  16. #16
    Senior Member Melissa A.'s Avatar
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    I'd just like to go for a walk without worrying about getting my butt kicked...

    That may not be acceptance, but it's not too much to ask!

    Hugs,

    Melissa
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  17. #17
    That guy in a dress Sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sophia Rearen
    Crossdressing when your dead isn't fun.
    Is that so? I always thought I would look awesome wearing my redhead wig in a casket.

    (sorry, I have a dark sense of humor)

  18. #18
    Senior Member Jennaie's Avatar
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    Kryss:

    I'm sorry but I do think your first question was a good one, "Since when did crossdressing have to become a political issue?". It dosn't, and I have no comments to make regarding the rest of your post, which was filled with political comments.
    Last edited by Jennaie; 06-09-2006 at 05:31 PM.
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  19. #19
    The true Drama Queen Kimberly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melissa A.
    I'd just like to go for a walk without worrying about getting my butt kicked...

    That may not be acceptance, but it's not too much to ask!

    Hugs,

    Melissa
    amen!!

    I would just like safety.

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  20. #20
    boi - gurl - whatever... Ms. Donna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kryss
    Since when did CD'ing become have to be political issue?
    Since it calls into question the basic assumptions we as a society have regarding gender roles - what it means to be a man or a woman. This in turn challenges the entire foundation upon which the established patriarchy exists.

    It calls into question what we see as a basic human right: the right to be who we are without fear of persecution. To be persecuted on the basis of the clothing we wear or how we choose to identify and express ourselves - especially when that expression in no way harms anyone or impinges on their rights.

    I guess you're right - there really isn't anything political about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryss
    I realize that many people want acceptance. And it would be nice to be able to walk down the street in a skirt and not to be laughed or made a mockery of. But at the same time do you honestly think our society, nay our humanity as a whole has the capacity to do so?
    Uh, yea... It known as social evolution. Societies are living, evolving entities: they can and do change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryss
    For shit's sake, I know people that are all left liberal looney people that have rally's and go to conventions about energy conservation and save the whales etc etc etc, and what do they do on the weekends? Go out a drink, go and pay 20 dollars to see a damn movie spend 50k on a car and then bitch cause no one is helping humanity. Don't misunderstand me, I am hardly saying that we arent all a little hipocritical. But using that as an example, what makes anyone think that society would ever be accepting in our liftime?
    How can we not misunderstand you here? What does this have to do with crossdressing, Transgender issues, social acceptance or anything else for that matter???

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryss
    So the morality kicks in. When does acceptance cross the line of morality?
    By morality I mean what is appropriate for society to develope without turning inward on itself.
    What morality? Who's morality? ... Yours?

    How does acceptance 'cross the line of morality'? Is there something immoral about me wearing a dress if I want? Is there something immoral about being accepted while wearing a dress. From whence comes this great moral code you are so afraid of violating? And what makes you so sure your so-called morality is right for everyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryss
    Point is, why does one need a public barrage of acceptance in order to make change? Now don't read into this, but the last time a society tried to push principles of acceptance to the rest it incited World War 2. No I am not calling anyone a Nazi.
    Last time I checked, the Nazi plan was not the promotion of world wide acceptance. It was the eradication of all that did not fit into their vision of perfection. Their's was a campaign not of inclusion, but of exclusion - by death. They weren't looking for world acceptance, they were looking for world domination.

    Find a better example because this one is flat-out opposite to your argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryss
    I am asking if the pushing for acceptance is going to cause more harm than good?

    Where do we draw the line that separates what we want with what is best?
    How would acceptance cause harm and for whom? What criteria are you using as a baseline for determining 'what is best'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryss
    here is something we can all agree on,
    I doubt it...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryss
    Society as a whole would laugh if a guy with a beard was wearing a dress.
    And your point would be??? Since when did it become my - our - responsibility to make society 'comfortable'.

    How is it 'right' to foster a society in which intolerance, bigotry and persecution are the norm - and are in fact encouraged? From where I stand, not pushing for acceptance is far more harmful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryss
    But we accept women wearing pants as a norm.
    Give it a rest. It is not the same thing. It is not about clothing. It is about the right to define our selves as we see - not as others think we ought to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryss
    So. If women can wait, why can't we? Should we?
    Keep waiting... And don't forget to click your heels three times as well...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryss
    Hopefully I created some sort of thought provoking stimuli.
    Unfortunately Kryss, the only thoughts this has provoked are those of anger and sadness.

    Anger that someone here - one of 'our own' as it were - would actually support a society where we would continue to be ridiculed for being true to ourselves.

    Anger that one of 'our own' would associate our desire and fight for social acceptance with what is perhaps the single greatest example of intolerance and hatred in history.

    Sadness - in addition to the above - that you are content to be laughed at, ridiculed and considered a social joke: all for the 'greater good'.

    Sadness that you are willing to compromise who you are for some arbitrary morality - all based on the fallacious assumption that said morality is applicable to everyone universally.

    Sadness that you so lack an acceptance of self that not only can you not see the forest for the trees - you can't even see the trees.


    But, we all walk our own paths and must find that which works for us - that which resonates for us. If this works for you, than so be it - although I suspect that you will find yourself a minority amongst a minority.

    :mad:
    Last edited by Ms. Donna; 06-09-2006 at 08:40 PM.
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  21. #21
    I Believe - Don't I? Clare's Avatar
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    [SIZE=3]Well, I have to say i'm surprised by the general tone of the responses to Kryss' thread!

    I can see where she's coming from - is there a need to push our agenda in society because we demand immediate recognition? Don't get me wrong, it would be wonderful to live in a society that accepts crossdressing individuals, but the reality is that today we are still a minority and a relatively unknown community to the World at large.
    Quote Originally Posted by Karren Hutton
    ... But I think for the majority of us girls it's more of a personal thing and acceptance by close family and friends would be a giant step forward.
    I think Karren has it right. Rather than push our agenda blatently to the lawmakers and our fellow citizens for instant reform on Gender issues, isn't it better to establish a 'ground roots' approach to Transgender issues that over time will spread throughout the population and eventually become accepted as 'normal' by society at large?

    But, this gets back to Kryss' statement about 50 year time-frames. All great reform started from small efforts and may have taken many years to come to fruition - the GAY movement for example. Compare public acceptance of the GAY community today with that of 30 years ago. It has taken 30 years of effort and persistance by the GAY community to achieve equality, but the movement had small beginnings and built a groundswell of support as it became more of a public issue.

    Be honest - have you noticed any real Crossdressing movement that is active in the public arena? Other than the Sydney Mardi Gras, I have not seen on TV or read in a newspaper article, any reference to an organised Crossdressing movement here in Australia. Ok, perhaps we should start by revealing our lifestyle to Family and Friends, but eventually we'll have to develope a united large scale movement that can represent our lifestyle as a whole to society, rather than leaving it up to a few brave individuals to promote our cause. Until we have a united organisation that represents the crossdressing comunity in an informed manner, simple protesting of our minority status and insisting on law change/society acceptance won't work. It's the same as insisting your Wife accepts your crossdressing - but on a bigger scale - you'll still get resistance!

    And yes, i'm as guilty as any other in not standing up for my beliefs in the public arena - I acknowledge and accept that. But I'm also realistic enough to know that change will not occur in the short term - certainly not early enough for me to effectively take advantage of it in my lifetime!

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  22. #22
    The Girl Next Door Sally24's Avatar
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    I personally think people in general have come a long way. I'm a child of the 50's and things are alot different now. It's not unusual to see or hear of a transexual, even if you're not in "our" community. Is it rare, unusual, yes of course, but it's not totaly hidden and ignored. I think gender issues are slowly making headway with the general public. The public perception of gay/lesbian has changed dramatically in the last 20 years. It takes time, but change happens. I am not militant, and I don't dress to make a statement....However, I go out in public, and if I get read, I like to think that just that mild exposure helps make us less a rarity to the public perception.

  23. #23
    On the Capn's Ship Kimberley's Avatar
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    I dont want to go off on a tangent here, but arent we missing something extremely important? That being our own happiness? The question I ask is why does society deem it necessary to impose its own misguided and misinformed mores on a minority (us) to accomplish what goals? Is it religious? political? social? Someone please explain the benefit of any oppressive goals. No one has yet been able to convince me in the slightest that there is any benefit to society by discriminating or minimizing us. The real benefactors of this are the mental health professionals (and a lot of us are on that path) and the medical community at large for those transitioning. So exactly what is the gain? (And I wanted to stay away from political comment.... yeah right!!) Time to take a pill.....


    Kimberley
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    Venus and Mars are not aligned; Good thing.
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  24. #24
    Fashionista VeronicaMoonlit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kryss

    Since when did CD'ing become have to be political issue?
    It became political when TG folk were/are denied their rights.

    And it would be nice to be able to walk down the street in a skirt and not to be laughed or made a mockery of.
    You could do that right now.

    But at the same time do you honestly think our society, nay our humanity as a whole has the capacity to do so?
    Yes.

    But using that as an example, what makes anyone think that society would ever be accepting in our liftime?
    Because it HAS become more accepting. I have walked right into my local Walgreens in small town central Illinois, asked for help in finding a matching shade of a new foundation formulation and got that help. I could walk into any Lane Bryant, Catherines or Fashion Bug in this country and KNOW that I will be treated with respect because it's their corporate policy to do so.

    I will be the 1st to admit. I am a conservative politically,
    don't you think that's self defeating and contributing to your own opression?

    and if I could pass as a female in public I would do so.
    Who says you have to pass to go out in public. All these T-folk here that go out in public, do you think they pass 100% of the time? When I go out, I assume I'm not going to pass, but that doesn't stop me.

    Point is, why does one need a public barrage of acceptance in order to make change?
    Do you want to be fired for being a CD? No? Then you've got to have a law protecting your rights. That requires being talking about things in public.

    Now don't read into this, but the last time a society tried to push principles of acceptance to the rest it incited World War 2.
    Germany was pushing principles of non-acceptance and bigotry. I think you're confused here. We put an end to some major hatemongering and bigotry, a bit too late though.

    I am asking if the pushing for acceptance is going to cause more harm than good?
    What you call "pushing" others call "fighting to ensure that they have rights to begin with" Would you call the civil rights struggles of the 50's and 60's of the African-American community "pushing"?
    Society as a whole would laugh if a guy with a beard was wearing a dress. But we accept women wearing pants as a norm.
    Do you know why some people laugh at guys in dresses, because we haven't earned that right yet. Women fought for their rights (which included freedom in clothing as a subset) over many many years. It took a lot of hard work for women to get where they're at now and they're still working to this day to make things even better.

    So. If women can wait, why can't we? Should we?
    But women didn't just sit on their asses waiting for someone to hand their rights to them, they fought for them, for over a century: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seneca_Falls_Convention


    Veronica
    If you believe in it, makeup has a magic all it's own -- Sooner or Later (TV movie)
    We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be?- Marianne Williamson
    Have I also not said that "This Thing of Ours" makes some of us a bit "Barefoot in the Head"? Well, it does.

  25. #25
    Banned Read only
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    Wait? For what? For who?

    First of all, society is fluid, not static. Hence, it changes - or at least it should. Anyone NOT living in a cave should be at least minimally aware that it does change. And change can be a good thing.

    Moreover, society is not some vague out there deal, its you, me and everyone around us, right here, right now. If not now, then when? If not us then who? As for the wait deal, let me quote someone far more eloquent then me, or perhaps anyone else I know....

    "We know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. Frankly, I have yet to engage in a direct-action campaign that was "well timed" in the view of those who have not suffered unduly from the disease of segregation. For years now I have heard the word "Wait!" It rings in the ear of every Negro with piercing familiarity. This "Wait" has almost always meant 'Never." We must come to see, with one of our distinguished jurists, that "justice too long delayed is justice denied.""

    Martin Luther King's Letter from Birmingham Jail

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