Morality in Question?? A thought Provoking Discussion.

[tekla west]

Oh Yeah, one more thing, I too know lots of "left liberal looney people" who work their butts off to recycle, who ride bikes and use public transit so to avoid not using personal automobiles and here in SF at best it only costs $10 to see a movie (if you are paying $20 I think they are ripping you off). I know people who put their personal lives out in public in order to promote change, to help develop a better image, to make being TG in all its varied modes more positive to everyone.

And lucky we are in America that we have lots and lots of right-wing wing-nuts to balance off the left looneys. I meet people all the time who give me the right wing-nut view so firmly established by their "Christian" beliefs. Yeah, right, like Jesus would own a gun, drive a Hummer, and vote Republican. Yeesh. (matter of fact, like the pope, in all the pictures I see Jesus is in a dress, and his hair is perfect!)

I thought that in the USA that first of all EVERYTHING is a political issues in the end. Second, WE THE PEOPLE get to decide. Since I'm part of the people, I get to decide. So that's how it got to be a political issue. I wanted to make it one. Blame me.

I'm not sorry either.

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

What Veronica said.... you preach it girlfriend!

BTW, Kryss, the fact that I live in "left liberal looney" San Francisco might just be a reason I can walk down the street without getting laughed at -- and no I don't pass 100% of the time. (Liberals have no monopoly on tolerance but frankly t-friendly cities do tend to be liberal. For what it's worth....)

And when someone wants to deny me my rights -- that makes it political. No one's going to hand us our rights, we've got to earn them like every other group in history that's been stigmatized.

And yes things can change. When women started wearing pants, Deut. 22:5 was thrown in their faces too. As late the 1960s, women would get sent home from work for wearing pants. Today, no one but a few fringe groups sees anything unusual about women in pants. Women earned that change.

Likewise, regardless of what you think about homosexuality, fact of the matter is that prior to Stonewall in 1969, gays and lesbians were routinely fired, carted off the jail, etc. Now they're generally accepted in society, hold public office, run corporations, etc. and corporate America supports gay rights because they know a good market when they see it. And there's plenty of survey research that shows that people who actually know someone who's gay or lesbian is far more likely to be accepting of equal rights for homosexuals. Gays and lesbians earned that change.

If the estimated 1 in 20 men who crossdress all came out of the closet at once, you can bet we'd get the same acceptance after the initial hue and cry settled down. Companies like Lane Bryant and MAC already know all a good number of those men buying their stuff aren't buying them for wives and girlfriends. Which is one reason they train their staff to make sure we're treated right.

Incidentally, if we get out of the closet, that does make a lot more room for clothes....

[Kryss]

Holy Crap man,
Those of you that took this personally, take a deep breath, cause your about to get more pissed if you take what will be said from here on personally as well.

1st, I speak using alot of generalization. Why? Cause there are 300 million people in the US and I am not about to list off 2,340,934,349,495 different groups just to appease you. If I say Society as a whole would laugh at the guy in a beard an a dress I mean the mass majority, I mean 9 out of 10 people. I NEVER SAID I WOULD. Oh My god, are some of you allowing your goals and Ideals to cloud your perception of reality? I realize our society isnt what we (cd's, tg's etc) would like it to be for us. I also realize it takes action on our part to make change. DUH! Those of you that pointed that out, thank you for your obvious comments. I posed a question not a statement.

2nd. I am far from angry, I just happen to be a very expressive person and because I think fast I have to type fast. Due to that, I sometimes tend to leave out things that will inspire joy joy feelings in those that read what I have written.

3rd.

And when someone wants to deny me my rights -- that makes it political. No one's going to hand us our rights, we've got to earn them like every other group in history that's been stigmatized. - Marlena Dahlstrom

Probably the most consise point on this question. Thanks

Do you want to be fired for being a CD? No? Then you've got to have a law protecting your rights. That requires being talking about things in public. - Ms. Donna

Psst. There already are laws for this Brain child. Its called Discrimination.
Now if your dressing to work and weren't hired on as a female, thats called a disruption. Sorry if you disagree but people are simple and require stability. Unfortunatley that means that should the company so see it as a disruption to the "harmony in the workplace" as they would call it, they would be justified in letting you go. (JUST SO YOU KNOW, I still think its crap.)

4th. I dont remember saying any of that was my morals, views, or otherwise. YOU made an assuption.

5th. Lets see you can know who you are, be comfortable with that and yet I being comfortable in who I am,drop the F bomb suddenly it has to be commented on? Ok, OMG YOUR WEARING WOMENS CLOTHES!!!
Holy Corsets Batman so am I!! = Comments pointless, childish and really moot beyond belief.

6th. Ok those of you who think that the nazi analogy doesnt work. Forget Nazi's. I will now speak clearly instead of giving you something to think about and respond as opposed to seeing nazi's and debating symantecs.
THE OPPRESSION OF BELIEFS! Regardless of thier action, THEY FOLLOW THE SAME RULES, YOU DO THIS OR YOU DIE. Now no one is mass killing CD's and all that is, is a level of degree. The analogy might not have been the best, for that I apologize. If you fail to see how they are the same, then your ability to see beyond what is written and understand a concept is lacking full fruition.

7th

Anger that someone here - one of 'our own' as it were - would actually support a society where we would continue to be ridiculed for being true to ourselves.

Anger that one of 'our own' would associate our desire and fight for social acceptance with what is perhaps the single greatest example of intolerance and hatred in history.

Sadness - in addition to the above - that you are content to be laughed at, ridiculed and considered a social joke: all for the 'greater good'.

Sadness that you are willing to compromise who you are for some arbitrary morality - all based on the fallacious assumption that said morality is applicable to everyone universally.

Sadness that you so lack an acceptance of self that not only can you not see the forest for the trees - you can't even see the trees. - Ms. Donna

I never made any statements about my beliefs feelings or otherwise. So please relax. You are entirely in the wrong ballpark on this one.


What number am I on now? Bahh who cares.

I'd just like to go for a walk without worrying about getting my butt kicked...

That may not be acceptance, but it's not too much to ask! - Melissa A.

I couldn't agree more. But they do make small handgun's that can fit easily into a purse

How did My making a comparison go from an analogy to a 50-year plan??


Ok. Let me back up here a bit.
I will go ahead and make some ACTUAL statements on my position rather than impose a question. Obviously some people when given the choice scoff instead of think.
When I say I am conservative politically. What that means to me are these things. (warning, derragatory statements inteded, if your offended, call the wahhhambulance to come to your aid. Grow up and read to understand)
LESS GOVERNMENT, you ****ing hippie *******s that think waiting in a bread line is better than going to walmart need to lay off the dope.
Honestly ask yourself. Would you rather buy 1 brand of toilet paper from the government (and have to wait for it) or would you rather have a choice.
I unlike many it seems, stop and realize I live in a capitalistic society, where choice in the things I may possess is really what its about. Giving up this choice is far from acceptable. Furthermore, how good do you think that toilet paper will be if there is only 1 company competing for it? (<-- RHETORICAL QUESTION)
WELFARE-omg can you say overhaul or dismissal. Don't misunderstand me. I know there are alot of families out there hanging on by a thread and yes they need help and I am willing to help them. But when you see a woman with 6 children pay with a food stamps card(welfare money) and climb into a hummer. THERE IS A PROBLEM!
HEALTH REGULATION- Dont give government any more control than they need, but give them enough so the health companies stop bending us over the backside of the thermometer. I sustained a large tear under my chin, for which I went to the hospital for. When I finally spoke to someone (2am and no one there waited 3 hours)I was told it would be 600+ for stitches. So I promptly said no thanks and left. Stitched it up myself and not 2 weeks later I get a bill for 100 bucks. So I eagerly called up the phone number I was so nicely given on my bill under the "Call here for question, comments, concerns". I was given a very polite greeting on the other end of the line by a nice lady. I said to her, "Yes Ma'am I have a question. I have recieved a Bill for services and I was wondering what 100 dollars of my money was paying for. Since I don't recall recieving any medial attention." She was nice and informed me that since I filled out paperwork there is a standard processing fee for medical paperwork regarding my file. I responded, "Ma'am, please assist me for I do not understand. Are you telling me that I am being charged 100 Dollars for someone to take the paperwork that I filled out and put it in a vanilla folder on a shelf?" Her response was somewhat unexpected but none the less entertaining, "Exactly" she said.
I thanked her kindly and ended my call. I was fortunate enough to record our conversation and proceded to forward it to Experian for them to deal with. Ironically, Experian sent me a bill for paperwork they filed on my behalf. So I skipped the formalities and fowarded it along to the Health Insurance provider. As fortune would have it I recieved notice that the matter of 100 Dollars was considered closed and I would recieve no futher issues.
Now. That long detailed story was there not only as entertainment but to make a point. That point being, If I can get fubar'd over something so small as a tear in my skin, what is happening to the guy that needs a triple bypass, or the child with lukemia. There is a problem in our society when it comes to things like this. We often refer to it as the ostrich syndrom. The only real problem is even if we dont bury our heads in the sand, letters to congress, rallies, etc will gain you no ground unless the health companies are required to follow standards.
BOARDERS - I live in a small area in Houston that is predominatly Hispanic. All my neighbors are Hispanic. Quite a few of my friends are hispanic and while I don't "get" thier culture and they dont "get" my whitlyness, we still have a great deal of respect for each other. That being said. CLOSE THE DAMN BOARDER. I am not racist. Call me one and your an idiot. There is a difference between protecting what is mine and yours(our country) and saying, "closing the boarders means you hate Mexicans". If you think that, do us a favor. Euthanize yourself, your intellect isnt fit for the progress of our society. REALIZE there is a difference please for the love of Starbucks.
I've safeguarded this country and its freedoms for far too long and in ways I only wish I could forget about to see it tear itself apart from the inside cause someone thinks its ok for illegal immigrants to have an achor-baby and get better service than its citizens.

Thats enough on my politics.
Society. This is where I become much more to the left, while still holding some principles that are predominantly right sided in place.
YES I think Our community should be able to walk abroad and recreate ourselves in the ways that we see fit.
That being said. (WARNING ANAOLGY IN USE)
Gay Rights Parade. Yes I am sure it created alot of awareness and probably acceptance. Good for them. Now why is it when my fiancee's 6 year old asks me what a Lesbian is do I get pissed the hell off? Here's why I think,
I think it is because I feel it is a parents job to educate thier children on matters of relationships and sex. WHEN THE PARENT DECIDEDS. Now Don't pipe in with school yard talk. I know I know. But what I am talking about here is different. Yes a 6 year old can grasp the concept of 2 mommies. So sure you could explain it away. But what about those precocious children that must know WHY? Do you have kids? I would have to say this is at least 70% of all children want to know why.

Why is the sky Blue? Cause of the atmosphere. Why is there Atmosphere? So we can breath. Why do we breath? WHO ARE YOU CARL SAGAN?? You just grew out of diapers and want to know the fate of the world? CHILL BABY BUDDAH!!

The arguments about the responsibility of the media are in there as well I know, however we all know that the press will air just about anything. Ok, well maybe not a fellow american getting his head cut off, but close.

Basically, my point is this. If you are gay, bi, lesbian, CD, TG, TS, TV etc etc etc (Even the military has less acronyms), Be that. Be happy your that. And shut the hell up about it. No one is stopping you. If you want Laws enacted to protect you. Do what you can to make it happen. THIS does not have to mean public irrelevant displays. A Parade gerates awareness sure, BUT THATS NOT A SIGNED PETITION OR A CALL TO YOUR SENATOR!
Everyone wants what they want and they want it now. This is so totally human its ridiculous. I know. I know. And yes a Parade makes things go faster as then the media gets involved and then the story of the rights comes out etc etc etc I KNOW.
I think in simple terms, there is a way to rock the boat without throwing people overboard.

I am not christian. I do not believe in Jebus, Dog, Kharmic Retribution, Zeus, Osiris, Ra, Allah Or any other such deity. My belief is simple. IF there is something out there.... its beyond my or anyone elses ability to understand it in even the most infantessimal way. As big as the Universe is, to think that I could grasp something that could create all that, is not only foolish but incredibly naive. (notice I said IF)
That being said.
Religion is the opiate of the masses. Right now there is a new religion in our country known as Secularism. Basically this means that if it has anything to do with Jebus or God, it must go.
Forget History. Screw it. Don't worry Little jimmy will learn all about Islam in school, but since the crusades were fired by the flames of Catholisizm, we're just gonna skip over that.
Now how does that relate to us? And How is that a social issue. Its a social issue everytime someone calls you a sinner. Its a social issue everytime someone denies you access to worship what ever you believe.
My answer is simple for me. But for many of you who are faithful to your beliefs, you are left in the cold. (yes I know there are some places available).
I do however think this one stems into the realm of acceptance. Although, remember that part a very large part of the US is what? Christian. And what do alot of Christians say we are? BAAAAAD!...

Just remember, if you break one of his rules you go to a firey place where you burn in agony for all eternity reaping demented punishments and torture beyond any imagination; .... BUT HE LOVES YOU!

And now since I have been ranting for sometime about all these things you have a question, WTF does all this crap mean Kryss? Could you have strayed any further from the topic?
In short, yes I could, but I wont. What this means is this.
All these things, Religion, Politics, Children, Seniors, Beliefs, Principles, Goals, Ideals. All of it is intertwined. That's what Makes us a society.
We are a part of it regardless of how we feel about it or how it feels about us. Do I like Society? ME? Hell no. I think 90% of people walk around in the dark going to thier jobs, going home, eating a pizza pocket and going to sleep. Its the ones that make/made a concious decision to be different regardless of the opression they may feel for not fitting into the "norm" as society deems. And when I say Society deems I mean it as this.
When 90% of your societies people think gay marriage is wrong, the likelyhood of you throwing a party and walking down a street isnt going to change that. The same principles apply to all things. The majority sets the rules. We are in a Minority, although i think there are alot of us in hiding for fear of persecution, but regardless we are. Thus, if you want to make change. DO so. And if you really want to make big change? Find a way to do so without rocking the boat. Why you ask my precocious one? Why not rock the boat? I will tell you why. Because when the Majority thinks its in controll its happy. To the Majority, ignorance is bliss.

And one that note I will leave you to ponder something further.

For those of you that are still confused, those that are in dismay and think, How can this guy be one of us. Realize that your assumptions of me were wrong, that everyone even you has opinions that contradict each other, and lastly realize that I am but a simple butterfly. Flap Flap Flapping my wings, trying to avoid a friggin semi that is barreling at me at 100 miles an hour known as my life.

And no, I do not suffer from a low self image or self esteem, nor do I feel opressed. Truth be told, I dont go out in public dressed because I would WANT to be passable. As I am not, that is why I dont.

Holy crap can you people read into things in such a wrong way.

Now, stop debating symantecs with me and think about things. Form an original thought that brings NEW light on an issue we have touched on and let others expand on it.

The MAIN reason was to provoke thought. Not to have my post systematically torn apart by the grammar police. Although, I find it funny that if you commit sodemy in the south they put you in a cell with a guy who will sodemize you.

Night, and enjoy

[Kryss]

You know what, forget all that.
For those that were offended, its was not my intent.
I will however not apologize. In my opinion, if you were offended, your being way to sensitive in thinking that I am somehow attacking you. I am not. My original post was there to make people think about how thier roles played its part in society and if morality was an issue that was able to be dissected.

Apearantly its easier to dissect the person who wrote the question than the questions intent.

If you think your misunderstood, try being me for 5 minutes. Where your thoughts go through you so fast you can barely hang on. (no I dont have ADD) I just think. And I spew my thoughts out there. Above you are looking at raw thought. Not me pretending or hiding or trying to be a dick.
Well at times at can be sure but the point is talk with me, not at me.
If you have question, then raise it. The petty holier than thow attitude only makes me think of you as a selfish introvert with no perspecitve.

So. Stop. go back, read the questions till they make sense. And if you have something to add then do so. If you read close enough, you will get my meanings.

I will now attempt to say good night without being so cryptic.
Æûε⌂
shit... oh well i tried.

[Forum Admin]

You tried this on another forum also, well you aren't doing it here. This thread is now closed.