Double Standard (not exactly that one)

[Marla S]

Just had a little argument with my ex and didn't get an answer from her so maybe you can help me.

1.) Story:
In our department store works a saleslady I would call a F2M CD.
She doesnt hide her gender entirely (no breast binding, no glued on moustache etc.) but it is prity obvious that she goes for an extremly non-feminine style (clothes, shoes, haircut, glasses).

If you translate her style to a M2F CD this counterpart probably would wear some comfortable pumps, hose, jeans or a classy skirt, blouse, but no breast forms, no wig, a very unobstrusive makeover, if any.

Question ?

What is the objective reason that the M2F CD would be fired (I think we can be sure about it), while the F2M is not ?

As I said, I didn't get an answer.
(I guess there is non)

Maybe you can help.


2.) Another provocive question I didn't get an answer.

In Iran I probably would be stoned to death for me being a CD. Luckily I live in a "progressive" country and get mocked only or loose my job.

The penalty is different, but aren't the underlying "motives" similar (same) ?

[Kate Simmons]

Yes Marla but it's the price we have to be willing to pay to be ourselves. Believe me, I know. Ericka

[Joy Carter]

Motchosity and sex are the two reasons in my view ! Motchosity is that a word ?

[Tamara Croft]

1.) Story:
In our department store works a saleslady I would call a F2M CD.
She doesnt hide her gender entirely (no breast binding, no glued on moustache etc.) but it is prity obvious that she goes for an extremly non-feminine style (clothes, shoes, haircut, glasses)

You don't get it do you, a FTM CD WOULD have their breast binded, would probably be wearing male clothes and trying to hide their true gender. Just because this woman is wearing non fem style clothing, does NOT make her a FTM CD. Did it not occur to you that she is at work all day, has to be on her feet all day and wants to be comfortable?

I'll be sure to pass on the new criteria for being a FTM to the GG's for you and let our FTM's know too, just incase they are doing it wrong - non fem clothes, shoes, probably short hair and glasses.... well, that probably fits half the population of women... jeez...... thanks for that, I'm sure the GG's will thank you for correcting them.

[Marla S]

Tamara, sorry to say but I think you don't get it. I am well aware of the double standard discussions. They are wrong and boring if shortened to man = trousers and girls = skirts but that is not what I have written.
(But I expected an answer like this by someone. Seems to be kind of a reflex.)

... a FTM CD WOULD have their breast binded, would probably be wearing male clothes and trying to hide their true gender.

I havn't been present when she bought her clothes, so I don't know if they were bought in the male or female department. And it doesn't matter. If I would wear her outfit (either labled male or female clothes) nobody would doubt that I am a straight man without any gender issues and I would be entirely wrong on this forum.
I don't try to hide my gender, as I don't want to have a wig, don't want to have breast forms, as i don't like any prothesis to shape my male body into a more female one (I try to work with what mother nature gave me, though I might need a wig someday as I feel uncomfortable with my male baldness independent if I am in "male or female mode"). According to your defintion this seems to disqualify me as a CD. Not sure If I am happy about it, because this either shows the goal to reach or, sorry to say, a double standard.

As for the clothes etc. ok, skirts and shoes lingerie I only get in the female department, but shaving cream, some makeup, some nice tops and even pentyhose I could buy meanwhile with the lable "for man". Nevertheless I buy it in the female department: less expensive, easier to get, bigger variety.

Did it not occur to you that she is at work all day, has to be on her feet all day and wants to be comfortable?

Did it not occur to you that you don't have to look masculine to achieve this ?

I'll try to get a photo if I dare to take one, maybe it becomes more clear what I mean then.

Meanwhile we could take Marlene Dietrich as an example:
http://www.leninimports.com/marlene_..._gallery_4.jpg
http://farine.homestead.com/files/marlene.gif
I'd consider this crossdressing and i would definetly be labled like this if I'd presented myself like this (without breastforms and wig)

Double standard ?

[DanaJ]

... but it is prity obvious that she goes for an extremly non-feminine style (clothes, shoes, haircut, glasses).

You say non-feminine - what is your definition of "feminine" here? I have seen lots of clothes and shoes made for females that are not overly "feminine" i.e. "girly", but they are still women's clothes. Do all feminine shoes have heels in your opinion? Are these shoes she is wearing flats, so they are "non-feminine"?

What I am saying is that we all have our own definition of what is "feminine".... maybe your definition is different from hers.......

[Rickie]

I'm sorry MarlaS my reading skills aren't all that good. I didn't see your question about if she is or isn't feminine. I thought you wanted to know if we thought theres was a double standard. And there would be if there were.

Rickie

[Butterfly Bill]

Motchosity and sex are the two reasons in my view ! Motchosity is that a word ?

If what you are looking for is the state of being macho ("male" in Spanish), the noun is machismo.

[Marla S]

You say non-feminine - what is your definition of "feminine" here?

Kind of like I said above: If I would wear this outfit, haircut, glasses I would be considered rather a masculine man than an average one . I said feminie to indicate that she didn't bind her breast and therefore didn't hide her gender.

[GypsyKaren]

You say non-feminine - what is your definition of "feminine" here? I have seen lots of clothes and shoes made for females that are not overly "feminine" i.e. "girly", but they are still women's clothes. Do all feminine shoes have heels in your opinion? Are these shoes she is wearing flats, so they are "non-feminine"?

What I am saying is that we all have our own definition of what is "feminine".... maybe your definition is different from hers.......

So true, so true. You know, Kat likes short hair, doesn't wear much makeup, hates skirts, and is addicted to wearing men's Hawaiin shirts. She looks more feminine on her worse day than any tranny on their best, and she always blows me away with her beauty and sexiness. Many women like to dress for comfort, it doesn't mean anything, so get over it.

Karen

[Butterfly Bill]

Starting from their premise that masculine = strong while feminine = weak, and the second one that strong is better than weak, they conclude that for a woman to emulate masculinity is better than for a man to emulate femininity, even tho both may in general not be good. A man who is feminine and weak is deserving of the attacks of those who are masculine and strong, because bad examples like that must not be allowed to exist and possibly corrupt the strong.

All this is logical, but the weakness lies in the truth of the individual premises. Yes, a tomboy doesn't have anywhere near as much trouble as a sissy. But women who dress masculine are frequently suspected of being lesbians.

[DanaJ]

Yes, we posted at the exact same time, so I did not see your post giving more info when I posted......

I guess it would be hard to say without seeing what kind of haircut and glasses and shoes she has on. And correct me if I am wrong, but although Marlene Dietrich wore "men's" clothes, weren't they still tailored to fit her feminine frame?

[Jennaie]

"I would not feel so all alone, everybody must get stoned".

[Marla S]

And correct me if I am wrong, but although Marlene Dietrich wore "men's" clothes, weren't they still tailored to fit her feminine frame?

What exactly you would have to tailor at a skirt or pentyhose to fit our masculine frame.

High heels for large feet are tailored to fit our masculine feet. Does this make you less of a CD if you wear them ?

[DanaJ]

What exactly you would have to tailor at a skirt or pentyhose to fit our masculine frame.

High heels for large feet are tailored to fit our masculine feet. Does this make you less of a CD if you wear them ?

Actually, large sized high heels are tailored for women with large feet, it is a blessing to us that we can wear them.

Listen, no one here is telling you to not CD at work - why don't you start off small (which you are probably already doing), and work your way up until you are into full-femme mode?

Have you actually tried dressing en femme at work before, and got in some sort of touble? Or are these questions rhetorical or what-if scenerios?

[Marcia-B]

I dont know about Cds but transexuals are accepted in Iran.The ayatollahs are in favour of it as there is nothing in the Koran against changing sex.

[Sandygal]

Is this the question your trying to ask. Are FTM less likely to be fired than a MTF? I would believe so. Everyone here agrees that a woman is allowed to dress down with more male style clothes to be comfortable. But maybe a crossdresser dresses up in female style clothes to be more comfortable. Maybe if someone says to you "Hey, your a guy wearing a skirt" you can answer" I'm just trying to be more comfortable". Isn't that how woman made it ok to dress down?

[Amelie]

I think I know what Marla is saying. Even if a dress or a skirt were tailored for a man and even if this man never wore breast forms or added anything to his body to create a female image. This man would still have a tougher time in life than a female who wore male style clothes.
If a female wore men's tailoered pants and shirts, she still would not be hasseled as much as a man who wore a dress tailored to fit his body.

Every one here can argue this topic till the cows come home, but if things were trully equal, one would see more men in dresses than they already do. One can see many women dressed in men's style clothes but rarely does one see a man in a dress, sort of like Buffalo Bill on this forum. How many times does one see someone like Bill out and about.

[Marla S]

Actually, large sized high heels are tailored for women with large feet, it is a blessing to us that we can wear them.

That is the most common view and I think it is only partly true. One may ask why the larger the size the less variety, the higher the heels and the more you are forced to buy them from erotic- or fetish-shops.
I don't believe that tall women are more "fetish prone" than smaller ones, and pumps are pumps. They are defined by their shape and not their size.

Listen, no one here is telling you to not CD at work - why don't you start off small (which you are probably already doing), and work your way up until you are into full-femme mode?

Have you actually tried dressing en femme at work before, and got in some sort of touble? Or are these questions rhetorical or what-if scenerios?

Though a bit off topic let me tell you a bit about the background of this thread and maybe some following.

I have lost my job a few weeks ago (not related to CD), lost my SO a few days ago (in parts related to CD) have to find a new flat ( choise may be influenced by my CDing), have to find a new job (it could be heavily effected by my CDing), would like to find someone to love again (will be heavily effected by my CDing).
That's all not very funny but bears the great opportunity to start from the scratch.
Thanks to this forum I now know that there is nothing wrong with me - after over three decades struggeling. Emotionally I didn't feel better in years (if ever) and feel to be close to myself, because I realized that CDing is no disease but it may make you sick and lonely because of the social repressions or the fear of getting social repressions.
As I don't want to deny myself anymore but can't change the society and their views (necesarrily inherent part of myself too), I have to find the balance between these two poles. I have to learn when there is a risk to get painfull social repression and when it is only the fear to get them. I like to be prepared if I get negative reactions and I like to learn when it is time to accept them if I would have to deny myself.
Like Julie Avery said in some thread:

Never force that on anyone, but never deny it

(Not forcing doesn't mean not showing, IMO)
To achieve this it is still necessary to make some things clear or to form an oppinion and to learn to distinguish between situations one really has to fear and those one only thinks they are terrible. And, very important for a hypothetic relationship too, I need arguments and questions and to build up a self-assuredness I never really had but probably will need to have.

Back to the topic:
On this way it is IMO important to sucrinize some common views and phrases.
As the argument with my ex and Tamara's reply showed it seems to be necessary, because there are views that might be questionabel even if they seam to be quite obvious and accepted at a first glance. And there might be some paralells that only at a first glance are totally out of scope (Iran thing).
As a CD that is not going to fully emulate a women I think I have to take care not to run into clichés from both extrems: You wear a skirt --> you are a CD; you wear no breast forms --> you're not a CD.

If I am right or wrong, I don't know. But that's why I am asking and try to learn.


P.S:
Just another heretical question comes to mind:
Women dressing for comfort --> ok, no CDing
Men dressing for beauty --> not ok, CDing ??????????????????

[Marla S]

Is this the question your trying to ask. Are FTM less likely to be fired than a MTF? I would believe so.

Yes, it is not hard to imagine that he will be fired and I like to pin down the justification.

To make one thing clear, I have neither the intention to bash the GGs nor I want to blame them for our situation.

Maybe if someone says to you "Hey, your a guy wearing a skirt" you can answer" I'm just trying to be more comfortable". Isn't that how woman made it ok to dress down?

Yes the comfort argument is a lame one IMO, but I believed it too because it was mentioned so often and seems to be right at a first glance.
The real difference would be the attitude towards a particular clothing style and that's not defined by trousers or not.


@Amelie: Couldn't have said it better

[Ms. Donna]

Question ?

What is the objective reason that the M2F CD would be fired (I think we can be sure about it), while the F2M is not ?

This is a really confusing thread and seems to be talking about several different things for different reasons. I'm going to try and address your question above.

It is not clear from observation alone that the salesperson:

• was crossdressed
• has gender issues
• was born female

All the above are assumptions on your part.

As a rule, we seem to define 'crossdressing' as not simply wearing clothing intended for the 'opposite' (ugh!) gender - but that there is an intent behind it: the intent to pass as, emulate or otherwise express some aspect of our persona as it relates to that gender which would otherwise wear said clothing. In this case, there is no clear 'intent' described - only her presentation: not enough to draw a conclusion.

What is also an unknown is what the corporate dress code is at the department store. If her attire was in compliance therewith, then there is no case of 'double-standard' here - she was simply taking advantage of the options available to her.

Now, to your question.

There is a greater likelyhood that a crossdressed male will encounter more problems that a crossdressed female - but this of course all depends on to what extent one is crossdressed. I can crossdress completely - undies, trousers, shirt, socks, shoes, jewlery - and still acceptably pass as a 'man'. Am I crossdressed? I suppose in this case it's all a matter of perspective: to me I am - to those reading me as a man - I'm not. Now, if I substitute some capris and pumps - it becomes a different story.

Yes, women - as a rule - have greater lattitude with regards to dressing. They have to really push it before they are considered 'masculine' or 'manly'. With less lattitude on their side, men don't have to push too much before becoming 'effeminate'.

As for as being fired, I'm sure that in general as a man if you showed up for work in a dress, there is a good chance of that. But in a more corporate environment, 'cause' will be based on violation of HR policy and creating a disruptive work environment - not on your 'dress' specifically: unless of course it's a really awful dress.

However, that need not be the case. I slowly eased into dressing more and more 'feminine' at work - pushing the envelope of the dress code - and had no problems. Then, in order to ensure there wouldn't be any problems, I sat down with HR and came clean to them. I explained my situation and that I wanted to be allowed (yes, I was asking permission) to follow the woman's dress code (business casual - no skirts/dresses). They're answer was positive, so I now dress as me without fear of repercussion. Also, as Gender Expression is included in our firm's EEO policy, I'm pretty well covered from complaints for others (none to date).

For all we know, your saleslady may have a similar arrangement.

Just 'showing up' to work as a woman (or man as the case may be) amounts to a stunt - and employers don't like stunts. We can, however, 'be who we are' at work if we are willing to do some work and be upfront with people.

Love & Stuff,
Donna

[Marla S]

It is not clear from observation alone that the salesperson:

• was crossdressed
• has gender issues
• was born female

All the above are assumptions on your part.

That is not the question. The question is how the society sees you and with which lable, and all its connotations, you get stamped and which consequences you have to face because of it, and most important why.
This lady might have lost a bet, she might bind her breast during leasure time or it might even have been a boy with feminine figure and face (would be possible, though unlikely). That doesn't matter here.
A customer barely will ask her if she is dressed like this for comfort or because she has gender issues and lable her afterwards.

Dress code: There seems to be no particular dresscode in the department store. You will find almost any style (except M2F CD of course .)

[DanaJ]

Marla - have you thought about just asking her why she dresses this way?

[Tamara Croft]

Yes the comfort argument is a lame one IMO, but I believed it too because it was mentioned so often and seems to be right at a first glance.

How is it lame, it's actually more logical. If a person is on their feet all day working, they are hardly going to be in a nice skirt, top and heels are they? And I really don't think a MTF ts/cd would do it either, you might think this is something you could do, but lets be realistic, this is something you don't do, so can't say the comfort excuse is lame, you saying it's lame is lame

And I didn't get anything wrong, you labelled her a FTM cd because of how she dresses, that was the bit I was addressing, not any of your questions.

[GypsyKaren]

You know, I'll consider the argument that women who dress for comfort are crossdressing if I ever, ever, once in my life hear it from a non CDer.