Double Standard (not exactly that one)

[~Kitty GG~]

I'll take a stab at this..

Yes it is a double standard. But.. In the future men may win the rights to wear dresses.. and in the past women didn't have the right to wear trousers or own property.. and they were considered useless if they weren't married and producing children. The double standards that women faced back then changed. The double standards that men face now can be changed as well.

1.) Story:
In our department store works a saleslady I would call a F2M CD.
She doesnt hide her gender entirely (no breast binding, no glued on moustache etc.) but it is prity obvious that she goes for an extremly non-feminine style (clothes, shoes, haircut, glasses).

If you translate her style to a M2F CD this counterpart probably would wear some comfortable pumps, hose, jeans or a classy skirt, blouse, but no breast forms, no wig, a very unobstrusive makeover, if any.

The clothing that the saleswoman was wearing compares to the clothing that you will see in a cross section of women in most public areas. But the M2F CD counterpart that you describe is not wearing something you will see in a cross section of men in most public areas. And so is not comparable.

Now if the CD were less obtrusive and wore women's track shoes, casual pants from the women's department, women's sox, a casual women's top that didn't scream girly.. plus no forms, wig, or makeup. Then yes, this would still be CDing and would not cause a man to lose his job. .. unless that job required a specific dress code.

Should the double standard be changed? absolutely.
Will change happen if enough people complain about women wearing what they want? no.

Love & Hugs
~Kitty~

[Priss]

Just had a little argument with my ex and didn't get an answer from her so maybe you can help me.

1.) Story:
In our department store works a saleslady I would call a F2M CD.
She doesnt hide her gender entirely (no breast binding, no glued on moustache etc.) but it is prity obvious that she goes for an extremly non-feminine style (clothes, shoes, haircut, glasses).

If you translate her style to a M2F CD this counterpart probably would wear some comfortable pumps, hose, jeans or a classy skirt, blouse, but no breast forms, no wig, a very unobstrusive makeover, if any.

Question ?

What is the objective reason that the M2F CD would be fired (I think we can be sure about it), while the F2M is not ?

As I said, I didn't get an answer.
(I guess there is non)

Maybe you can help.


2.) Another provocive question I didn't get an answer.

In Iran I probably would be stoned to death for me being a CD. Luckily I live in a "progressive" country and get mocked only or loose my job.

The penalty is different, but aren't the underlying "motives" similar (same) ?

I'd have to say that it's just the way that our society here works... We're a male dominated society, even if we have made some strides. Ie, lesbians are fairly well tolerated while gay men are shunned. Women are allowed to look as masculine as they desire, while the opposite is not true for men. Women are still considered whether or not it's actually true, to be the weaker sex even if they are equal to men. We tolerate the not being totally enfemme, because of the strides we have made.

Something else to be aware of is that in some jobs, it's not really a good thing to be totally enfemme for anyone. I have worked with a lot of women who even though they could have and occasionally did, were rarely enfemme. To tell you the truth, in such a situation anyone who was enfemme all the time, would stick out loudly.

For your second question, I'd say it is the same motives. It's just that our society doesn't tolerate that level of violence. That doesn't mean that it doesn't happen here too... http://www.gender.org/remember/index.html#

[Marla S]

There is a greater likelyhood that a crossdressed male will encounter more problems that a crossdressed female - but this of course all depends on to what extent one is crossdressed. I can crossdress completely - undies, trousers, shirt, socks, shoes, jewlery - and still acceptably pass as a 'man'. Am I crossdressed?

Agreed, but change a single peace of cloth to a stereotypical one (high heels, stockings, skirt) and I think it is likely that you will be seen less as a fashion freak and turn more to a pervert in the eyes of the society (you and your motives will stay the same).
Same question: What is the justification ?

I am becoming cautious with the term CD lately

Yes, women - as a rule - have greater lattitude with regards to dressing. They have to really push it before they are considered 'masculine' or 'manly'. With less lattitude on their side, men don't have to push too much before becoming 'effeminate'.

Double standard or not ? Why ?

As for as being fired, I'm sure that in general as a man if you showed up for work in a dress, there is a good chance of that. But in a more corporate environment, 'cause' will be based on violation of HR policy and creating a disruptive work environment - not on your 'dress' specifically: unless of course it's a really awful dress.

Again, we seem to agree that it is likely that he will be fired but thats not the question.
Again: What it is the justification that makes him different from her. ?

I am drilling on that because the longer I don't get an answer, I have to assume there is non. And if there is non I am slowly becoming really angry, because I was made feel miserable for 35 years and will have to face problems in the future for NO REASON.

[SIZE="4"]I FEEL CHEATED[/SIZE]

[Bev06 GG]

I think I know what Marla is saying. Even if a dress or a skirt were tailored for a man and even if this man never wore breast forms or added anything to his body to create a female image. This man would still have a tougher time in life than a female who wore male style clothes.
If a female wore men's tailoered pants and shirts, she still would not be hasseled as much as a man who wore a dress tailored to fit his body.

Every one here can argue this topic till the cows come home, but if things were trully equal, one would see more men in dresses than they already do. .

So true Amelie, and I dont think any of us could argue that point. However, life is full of unfairness and inequality. I get just as angry at the unfairness of unequal pay for men and women, which in our part of the country goes on all the time. Guess weve just got to live with it and quit moaning or quit doing the things that give rise to the unfairness. For sure things aren't going to change for a while yet so guess were stuck with it whether we're a crossdressing male or an underpaid female.
BEVxxxx

[Marla S]

Marla - have you thought about just asking her why she dresses this way?

And I didn't get anything wrong, you labelled her a FTM cd because of how she dresses, that was the bit I was addressing, not any of your questions.

Take a label you want. Fact is that you will face unjustified problems.

And to say it in a harsh way: A TS isn't asked why and given time for argueing before she is getting trashed by rednecks.

To say it more moderate as above: The society that lables you, the one that laughs at you, your boss that fires you etc. usually don't ask. They just do, and that obviously depending on the gender.
I don't have to ask as I would be glad to see both of them, don't caring about their motives and the labels.

@comfortable shoes and lame argument

http://www.bsf-doehle.de/shop/produk...0241_gross.jpg
http://www.bsf-doehle.de/shop/produk...0432_gross.jpg

Both comfortable (specially made for long time standing and walking around hole the day). What is the difference ?

[Connieminiskirts]

Marla I do think I understand your orignal question, and YES I do agree that in many cases, especially in the area of customer service, a M2F cd would be unemployed before an M2F. I dont say it fair or right, it just is!

Customer's, ie, PEOPLE would object to the M2F and not so much to the F2M Its not neccesarily right but its how human nature is. ANd since People=customer's, which inturn=Profits, managers have to listen at some point.

Now to add a little fuel to the already glowing fire here.

You stated that she was "Obvioulsy an F2M" because of what she wore and how she appeared. as a result of THAT statement I do need to ask a question!

Q! Are all females who dress "down" F2M cd?
If the answer to this is YES then boy howdy do I have a lot of "ammo" for my own family!
Lets see, that would make my 5 sisters, all there daughters, and daughters in law,(way to many to count) My OWN 4 daughters, my 2 daughters in law, and all my grandaughters, (who range in age from 6months to 16yrs), as well as my Aunts, female cousins, pretty much every famale I now know or ever will know, as well as my Wives, past and present, ALL CROSSDRESSERS!!!

Kinda makes on wonder "Why do all the millions of F2M's get so damned mad at us M2f"s??

Boy just wait unitl I tell my oldest daughter she's a "crossdresser!!" The "poopoo is gonna hit the airhandling device" in a BIG way!!! ROFLMAO

Okay thats my response go ahead throw it at me, i aint even gonna duck!

[Marla S]

Q! Are all females who dress "down" F2M cd?

Maybe it is because my mothertongue is not English and therefore I have problems to express things clearly.
Short answer: NO, NO, and NO.
Answer: NO. NO because I don't consider a woman in trousers as dressed down and NO I don't consider dressing down as equal to crossdressing.

The girl I am talking about was dressed and styled in a very accurate and tastefull way, that I would label masculine or extreme non-feminine.

"Dressing down" might be an expression of bad taste that is easily achieved by dolling up too.
In general I consider the usage of this term here as kind of sexsistic against women, as I consider it as sexistic against women to laugh about a man in skirt or hose, independent if it is laughed by men or women (but that's a different story).

[CaptLex]

Again: What it is the justification that makes him different from her. ?

I am drilling on that because the longer I don't get an answer, I have to assume there is non. And if there is non I am slowly becoming really angry, because I was made feel miserable for 35 years and will have to face problems in the future for NO REASON.
[SIZE="4"]I FEEL CHEATED[/SIZE]

You're looking for justification? A (good) reason? There is none. Life is not fair. There will always be something somewhere that someone can complain about not being fair in their lives based on anything at all: race, color, creed, gender, nationality, sexual orientation . . . you get the picture. For every MtF crossdresser who is unhappy about not being able to dress as he wishes whenever and wherever he wishes, there will be another person who is unhappy about the unlucky breaks in his or her life.

That's life, hon. You may want to trade places with someone who you feel gets away with things you can't, but I bet you I can find someone else who would be happy to trade places with you. eace:

[Marla S]

Thanks a lot CaptLex.

That's kind of what I have feared to hear, but it is more easy to withstand and deal with resistances that are not founded on any reason then to accuse oneself for the resistences. That's more healthy and makes things easier. A push for the self-assuredness

Thanks a lot ~Kitty GG~, I really appreciate your post.

Thanks a lot Priss: I feel understood , and I liked to add something ... but maybe later .. don't feal prepared to get stoned right now

[Amelie]

So true Amelie, and I dont think any of us could argue that point. However, life is full of unfairness and inequality. I get just as angry at the unfairness of unequal pay for men and women, which in our part of the country goes on all the time. Guess weve just got to live with it and quit moaning or quit doing the things that give rise to the unfairness. For sure things aren't going to change for a while yet so guess were stuck with it whether we're a crossdressing male or an underpaid female.
BEVxxxx

I agree, but Marla's thread was about the subject that I answered, it wasn't about all the unfairness of the world. The thread was talking about male and female and the clothes that they wear.

It's just that some here don't see that there is an unfainess, when it comes to what certain people can wear and others can't.

[Julie Avery]

I'm not clear why a protest against discrimination against mtf CD's should include a dig at ftm CD's.

We mtf's really need to become man enough (pardon the expression) to stand up to our critics without feeling a need to drag down ftm's, gays, and bisexuals, which we do all too often.

- Doug

[Marla S]

I'm not clear why a protest against discrimination against mtf CD's should include a dig at ftm CD's.

I am not sure if I get you right, but I am not going to dig anyone except for reasons of the situation we are faced by the society in order to know against what I/we have to stand up (or not, if hopeless).
*masuline mode on* You have to know your enemy to fight him. Reconnaissance is one of the most important tasks in a battle *masculine mode off*

I am well aware that F2Ms sooner or later face similar problems. Nevertheless it seems different at certain points.*scientific mode on* Differences in similar situations are always a good hint on underlying mechanisms and these are the ones to dig for. *scientific mode off*

[Julie Avery]

I'm not sure what science has to do with the matter at hand.

People who find themselves at the bottom of the pecking order typically try to drag someone who's next to the bottom down underneath them, rather than making common cause against those at the top of the pecking order. It's a big part of how things stay the same, in the long view. And it's a shame.

I know a thing or two about science, but as I said, I don't see the relevance of science to this discussion.

Doug

[Marla S]

@Julie
Hm.
Ok I can assure you that
I Do not want to drag anyone underneth or behind me, just not my style and a reason that I didn't succeed in business, btw.

If you would have read the posts carefully I always referd to how the society sees us and why. It is not my foult that there are different views and it is not my fault that these view seems to be cemented even in this community. I only wanted to know why this view is different and what's the justification.
From my point of view it doesn't matter if this girl was a "CD" or not or should be labled this way. I salute her if she feels comfortable with the style she has choosen to express herself and I am happy for the GGs that they successfully fought for a wider range of options to be themselves without being stamped.

What I have learned so far is that I shouldn't accept the lable CD anymore, because it is forced onto me by the society, that is to educate.

@Science: Cause and action.
You need to know what is what to make the maschine running, but sometimes the cause is labeld action or the other way round.

[Julie Avery]

Marla S, we're on the same team, and I know that you have a very sophisticated understanding of who we are and what we're about. I'm just saying that my sense of how we go about what we both agree (I think) is our business is that we ought to try not to cast other unjustly disapproved-of groups in a bad light, ever. Sometimes, in order to live up to that standard, it's necessary to be careful how I frame arguments. That's all I'm saying.

Doug

[Marla S]

[Julie Avery]

[Maria D]

Tamara said 'You don't get it do you, a FTM CD WOULD have their breast binded, would probably be wearing male clothes and trying to hide their true gender.'
Whilst I get the gist of your point, and pretty much agree, that's only in the same way someone would say 'but a MTF CD WOULD shave their beard' and Butterfly Bill is a counterpoint to that.

GypsyKaren said 'I'll consider the argument that women who dress for comfort are crossdressing if I ever, ever, once in my life hear it from a non CDer.' Well, I'd wheel my Gran in here if I could but she went bananas after my Grandad died and is 'living' with my parents. She only remembers me as a 6 year old now. Anyway, I never once saw her in a skirt, and she had 'views' on women who wore trousers, including both her daughters. That's my 4D point; the main difference between women in trousers and men in dresses is time. Of course, there's CDing 'for CDing' and 'CDing for other reasons like comfort or convienience', and the latter was done by women long enough to become not CDing. If you really want to be a man wearing dresses, do it, as women did, until it's not an issue any more. they braved it.

The difference, I think is CDing and identifying as the opposite sex, and CDing while still being your normal self. My fiancee wears trousers and is a woman, because she identifies as such. An FTM does not identify as a woman.
Assuming that a butch woman is a FTM CD is the same as assuming that a camp man is an MTF CD.

Oh, and flat shoes for comfort: have you tried standing for an 8 hour day in heels? I've had my toenails bleed in flats let alone heels, do you think I want to be crippled?

[Rickie]

"If you would have read the posts carefully I always referd to how the society sees us and why. It is not my foult that there are different views and it is not my fault that these view seems to be cemented even in this community. I only wanted to know why this view is different and what's the justification."

I think the reason you can't get a understandable answer here. Is because your asking the wrong people. You need to ask the ones who would this thing that has you so fired up.

And God knows the world isn't fair.

Rickie

[Marla S]

Oh, and flat shoes for comfort: have you tried standing for an 8 hour day in heels? I've had my toenails bleed in flats let alone heels, do you think I want to be crippled?

IMO there is to much cliché in this statement. Did you ever consider that M2F is possible without heels ? Someone who likes to wear flats like this obviously couldn't be a CD. I would be one, but I am disqulified as CD anyway because I don't wear breast forms.
I think I am just me. (my two cents for the phrases box)

[az_azeel]

[QDress code: There seems to be no particular dresscode in the department store. You will find almost any style (except M2F CD of course .)[/QUOTE]
I think you are so lost...
Its easy for a girl to to wear mens clothes... and think nothing of it...yet men think she is cross dressing... If the roles were reversed then it would be defininte......

[Maria D]

Er, I think you have not understood Marla. Cliche? No, quite simply it hurts to stand for a long time in heels. OF COURSE I know that 'MTF is possible without heels', that's my point. My point is that I wear flats most days.
Ok?

[Marla S]

Maria
Sorry, I am German

[Maria D]

Maria
Sorry, I am German

No worries, I understand the difficulties in using a second language

[Tamara Croft]

but I am disqulified as CD anyway because I don't wear breast forms.

This isn't true, crossdressing is wearing the opposite sex's clothes, it has nothing to do with breastforms. Why would you think that because you don't wear breastforms, this doesn't make you a CD? My partner doesn't wear them, but that doesn't make him less of a CD than those that wear them. Tell me something, what kind of things do you wear?