This might very well get me kicked off here!!!

[NewbieCD]

I know I have not posted for a while but i still pop on here to see what ppl say. Boy are there some views here that are getting skewed. First the perfect woman display of femininity is of a woman all decked out in her best but then you go on to say that you all are better examples of femininity. YOU know what i like to dress and no matter how well I can pass i know that my wife in her everyday clothes exudes more feminism than I can portray with all the best make up and wigs in the world. For she is a woman and has lived that way all her life. Lets continue on the rant than it will all makes sense in the end. You whine and complain about how woman get to wear anything they want and no one says nothing than will later on post how you hate that you wife only wears clothes that she is comfortable in aren't you doing what you are blaming the world for on a smaller scale judging you wife or SO for what they wear or do not wear and how they don't pour feminity into there clothes and make up if you wanna dress that is fine but guess what here is something that i do not think a lot of you have realized is that clothes do don't make a woman feminine a woman is just that she is feminine and i can tell you if I wanted to be a girl than what i would shot for is to be lik my wife at any point and time not just when she is dolled like Donna Reed.

[Marla S]

Got your point.
Woman doesn't equal feminine, though. That's easily mistaken.

[Katiegirl]

NewbieCD

I quite agree most TV/TS would not easily pass as you rightly say they don't have that feel of feminility and never will, but I think that you are being too hard on them.

This forum is here to allow TV/TS's to express things that in most cases they can't express to others around them as they are not out to the world. These outpouring range from weird to enlightening but it helps them to came to terms with themselves which in itself is a good thing.

In practice it is impossible to be dressed immaculately all the time but some here who dress occationally find it hard to appriciate this. Although I don't dress all the time I dress most days and do so in comfortable cloths that wouldn't stand out in the crowd. I however do take mental note of what women wear so I can be in line with the latest fashion as well as those cloths which are best avoided.

Thats my

[Nigella]

Some one has said what needed to be said. Why should any genetic female look as we want them to look? Why should we have this ideal image in our minds. I have not yet heard of any GG say "All men should have a six pack to rival Arnie, a brain of Stephen Hawkins, and the wallet of Rockerfeller".

Women have battled hard to shed the yoke of society, they have earned their right to wear what they want, to look like they want,and more importantly not to be told you are not fem because your make up is still in the make up box and the dress comes out on high days and holidays.

Come on people, live in the real world, look around you and tell me honestly, what is the % of women who look like some of us want them to look.

[Julogden]

I know I have not posted for a while but i still pop on here to see what ppl say. Boy are there some views here that are getting skewed. First the perfect woman display of femininity is of a woman all decked out in her best but then you go on to say that you all are better examples of femininity. YOU know what i like to dress and no matter how well I can pass i know that my wife in her everyday clothes exudes more feminism than I can portray with all the best make up and wigs in the world. For she is a woman and has lived that way all her life. Lets continue on the rant than it will all makes sense in the end. You whine and complain about how woman get to wear anything they want and no one says nothing than will later on post how you hate that you wife only wears clothes that she is comfortable in aren't you doing what you are blaming the world for on a smaller scale judging you wife or SO for what they wear or do not wear and how they don't pour feminity into there clothes and make up if you wanna dress that is fine but guess what here is something that i do not think a lot of you have realized is that clothes do don't make a woman feminine a woman is just that she is feminine and i can tell you if I wanted to be a girl than what i would shot for is to be lik my wife at any point and time not just when she is dolled like Donna Reed.

As always, just my .

I really doubt that you will be thrown out of here for that posting, there's truth in what you say, and we should be able to express opinions here as long as they aren't hateful or prejudiced, and your posting is neither.

That said, I was out-and-about in the gender community in Chicago for several years, and met about every variety of TG woman that you could imagine (and a few that you probably don't want to imagine ) , and there are some who are as naturally feminine as any genetic female, and I really don't think that takes anything away from females.

Some males are women and some females are men.

Carol

[tekla west]

Gender covers the rainbow, or at least the waterfront. Fem girls and fem boys, macho boys and macho girls. Everyone has a right to - and this is way beyond "express themself" but have as intrisic duty to become who they are as they are let to understand that.

Some people might whine in there, about this or that, their own "lack for freedom" and the aledged freedom of others, but its pish-posh. Dollars to doughnuts they pretty much whine their way through life. This is just one more place to carp about some other monumental injustice. (Cause I'm sure it ain't the only one.)

Just be yourself tonight, if you can't do that were you are, move. Hey, if you want to be a champion surfer you GOT to move near the ocean.

So I think people are about as free as they are brave enough to be and about as happy as they make up their mind to be. Hey, if they are miserable, so what? Don't read them, I don't. I'm sure some don't read me either. I'm not losing sleep over it. Because if they are miserable, that's not your fault, not my fault, its their fault. Who else has power over their life? Nuff said. Everybody gets to be themself, and if not, you did have that option.

[Billijo49504]

Even if I may not agree with you, I will defend your right to you opinion. That said, don't be surprised if some ppl agree with you opinion and some just think you are full of it....BJ

[GG Vanya]

Some one has said what needed to be said. Why should any genetic female look as we want them to look? Why should we have this ideal image in our minds. I have not yet heard of any GG say "All men should have a six pack to rival Arnie, a brain of Stephen Hawkins, and the wallet of Rockerfeller".

Women have battled hard to shed the yoke of society, they have earned their right to wear what they want, to look like they want,and more importantly not to be told you are not fem because your make up is still in the make up box and the dress comes out on high days and holidays.

Come on people, live in the real world, look around you and tell me honestly, what is the % of women who look like some of us want them to look.

Nigella and NewbieCD

The GG's have been trying to say this for months in here, but it's been like beating our heads against a brick wall. MAYBE a genetic male or two saying it will get through to them.

Thank you both!

[great gg]

my experience with my SO wanting me to wear stuff that he felt would make me more feminine, etc was to fight it all the way becuase in fact, it was how he wanted to look/feel/be before he acknowledged his cdness. he was trying to control me in order to live out his feminine side but it was killing me. his comng out has blessed both of us in freedom. i am more femme now than i ever dared to be because it is who I am and not who he wanted me to be for him to feel good.

[Priss]

I know I have not posted for a while but i still pop on here to see what ppl say. Boy are there some views here that are getting skewed. First the perfect woman display of femininity is of a woman all decked out in her best but then you go on to say that you all are better examples of femininity. YOU know what i like to dress and no matter how well I can pass i know that my wife in her everyday clothes exudes more feminism than I can portray with all the best make up and wigs in the world. For she is a woman and has lived that way all her life. Lets continue on the rant than it will all makes sense in the end. You whine and complain about how woman get to wear anything they want and no one says nothing than will later on post how you hate that you wife only wears clothes that she is comfortable in aren't you doing what you are blaming the world for on a smaller scale judging you wife or SO for what they wear or do not wear and how they don't pour feminity into there clothes and make up if you wanna dress that is fine but guess what here is something that i do not think a lot of you have realized is that clothes do don't make a woman feminine a woman is just that she is feminine and i can tell you if I wanted to be a girl than what i would shot for is to be lik my wife at any point and time not just when she is dolled like Donna Reed.

Well, I wouldn't think that these sentiments would get you kicked out either...

A lot of anti-trans GGs like to tell us, that we can never truly be women. In some ways, this is a true statement. Most of us for example were actually raised as boys, with quite different expectations on us than girls were. At this time atleast, we cannot actually bear children. As much as we like to think that women now have equality in our society, this is still far from the truth. Great strides have been made, but until women are allowed to have total control over their own destinies, no measure will even come close to equality. This view that most of us have of women, is really nothing more than a fictional characture of women. We need to open our eyes to the fact, that REAL WOMEN or those who were born genetically female, come in all shapes and sizes. It's all in the eye of the beholder, but it is a mere fantasy where real women are concerned.

IMO, this is the sheer beauty of why a transsexual can be a woman, because women do come in all shapes and sizes and colors etc... I think it's better to just be as feminine as we are, rather than try to meet a fantasy standard that we should not apply to anyone. Have fun, dress like you want to dress, but never ever consider yourself better than any other woman out there or anyone else for that matter, but don't consider yourself less either.

[noname]

You whine and complain about how woman get to wear anything they want and no one says nothing

Well yeah, double standards to tend to get people a bit upset. But yes, of course I should understand, it's different when you do it. Note to self: re-read double standard chapter and why it's all good. : plz :

Women have battled hard to shed the yoke of society, they have earned their right to wear what they want, to look like they want.

Women? More like maybe a few grandmothers. Women today in their 20's to 40's haven't battled or earned jack &*(&/. Such a statement implys that if I endure enough prosecution for wearing what I want, I can enjoy the same freedom women do today. Not true.

Whoops, there I go again, telling it like it is. I forgot how much it's not liked. oh that's right re-read that double standard chapter again.

[GG Vanya]

Well yeah, double standards to tend to get people a bit upset. But yes, of course I should understand, it's different when you do it. Note to self: re-read double standard chapter and why it's all good. : plz :



Women? More like maybe a few grandmothers. Women today in their 20's to 40's haven't battled or earned jack &*(&/. Such a statement implys that if I endure enough prosecution for wearing what I want, I can enjoy the same freedom women do today. Not true.

Whoops, there I go again, telling it like it is. I forgot how much it's not liked. oh that's right re-read that double standard chapter again.

Grandmothers are women also yanno. I battled for my right to wear pants because of religious restraints. At 20, I kicked the traces, jumped the fence, and never looked back at organized religion.

I damn sure DID earn jack &*(&/! And BTW, yep, I'm a grandmother, twice over, damn proud of it, and don't consider myself to be one iota less a woman because of it.

[Melissa Ryan]

[SIZE="4"]My Lady wears what she wants and I wear what I want......No probs! Lovin life![/SIZE]

[RikkiOfLA]

I've been on the flip side of Great GG's post: I was the controlling in-denial-CD who was constantly telling my GF what to wear. She couldn't stand it, but couldn't understand it either and thought I was just too dependent on her. When I broke up with her (she took up smoking) it sure surprised her!

My wife (we met about 10 years later), on the other hand, appreciated my clothing suggestions. When I started CDing, the suggestions went way down, AND SHE MISSED THEM! So I had to go back to making suggestions. The upside is that we shop together a whole lot more, share the dressing room, and so on. So the suggestions are back, and since they are less from my desire than hers, they're a lot more reasonable now, I think.

Rikki

my experience with my SO wanting me to wear stuff that he felt would make me more feminine, etc was to fight it all the way becuase in fact, it was how he wanted to look/feel/be before he acknowledged his cdness. he was trying to control me in order to live out his feminine side but it was killing me. his comng out has blessed both of us in freedom. i am more femme now than i ever dared to be because it is who I am and not who he wanted me to be for him to feel good.

[GG Vanya]

Well, I wouldn't think that these sentiments would get you kicked out either...

A lot of anti-trans GGs like to tell us, that we can never truly be women. In some ways, this is a true statement. Most of us for example were actually raised as boys, with quite different expectations on us than girls were. At this time atleast, we cannot actually bear children. As much as we like to think that women now have equality in our society, this is still far from the truth. Great strides have been made, but until women are allowed to have total control over their own destinies, no measure will even come close to equality. This view that most of us have of women, is really nothing more than a fictional characture of women. We need to open our eyes to the fact, that REAL WOMEN or those who were born genetically female, come in all shapes and sizes. It's all in the eye of the beholder, but it is a mere fantasy where real women are concerned.

IMO, this is the sheer beauty of why a transsexual can be a woman, because women do come in all shapes and sizes and colors etc... I think it's better to just be as feminine as we are, rather than try to meet a fantasy standard that we should not apply to anyone. Have fun, dress like you want to dress, but never ever consider yourself better than any other woman out there or anyone else for that matter, but don't consider yourself less either.

Two points:

A GG doesn't *have* to be anti trans to make that statement. Some GG's who say this are simply realists.

As far as controlling destiny to achieve equality, I don't see the correlation. Men have yet to achieve this, unless I missed something on the news tonight?

[Bev06 GG]

Women? More like maybe a few grandmothers. Women today in their 20's to 40's haven't battled or earned jack &*(&/. Such a statement implys that if I endure enough prosecution for wearing what I want, I can enjoy the same freedom women do today. Not true.

Whoops, there I go again, telling it like it is. I forgot how much it's not liked. oh that's right re-read that double standard chapter again.

Hi Girls,
Actually noname, thats not strictly true. I wasn't one of the original sufragettes, but I still had my battles to fight. I am 45 years old, not a grandmother yet altho I am old enough to be one. I and some of my girlfriends had a heck of a battle at school to earn the right to wear trousers. We were allowed to wear them in the winter months but not in the summer. If we protested we were labelled as trouble causers and some teachers even questioned our sexuality. I can even remember an occassion when one particular teacher took it upon himself to wage war on all the rebels and he brought little short skirts in for anyone he caught in trousers. He made me wear something that I felt so self conscious in because I hated my legs, that I never again wore trousers for fear that he humiliated me again. It wouldn't be allowed now a days. But there you go. Some of us did have to put up abit of a fight to be who we wanted to be, and as young impressionable girls paid the price by becoming objects of ridicule. Not very pleasant at that or any age.
Take care
BEVxxxx

[Sandra]

Hi Girls,
Actually noname, thats not strictly true. I wasn't one of the original sufragettes, but I still had my battles to fight. I am 45 years old, not a grandmother yet altho I am old enough to be one. I and some of my girlfriends had a heck of a battle at school to earn the right to wear trousers. We were allowed to wear them in the winter months but not in the summer. If we protested we were labelled as trouble causers and some teachers even questioned our sexuality. I can even remember an occassion when one particular teacher took it upon himself to wage war on all the rebels and he brought little short skirts in for anyone he caught in trousers. He made me wear something that I felt so self conscious in because I hated my legs, that I never again wore trousers for fear that he humiliated me again. It wouldn't be allowed now a days. But there you go. Some of us did have to put up abit of a fight to be who we wanted to be, and as young impressionable girls paid the price by becoming objects of ridicule. Not very pleasant at that or any age.
Take care
BEVxxxx

Had the same problem here at school only trousers in the winter, and when I left school and started work in a shop over 20 years ago we was not allowed to wear trousers then.

It's a pity some people on here are so jealous of what a GG can wear. Sort your own clothing and look out before you moan about and whinge about what we wear.

Newbiecd:

Thankyou for having the guts to start this thread and say what you really feel instead of agreeing with what others think is the norm.

[GypsyKaren]

Women? More like maybe a few grandmothers. Women today in their 20's to 40's haven't battled or earned jack &*(&/. Such a statement implys that if I endure enough prosecution for wearing what I want, I can enjoy the same freedom women do today. Not true.

I just put in a 33 year career in a steel mill, and if you think discrimination against women still doesn't exist today, then you are sadly mistaken. I saw it constantly over those years, it was a never ending battle for the women there to get the top paying jobs, and that's even with a system based on senority only. Women were banned for years from the overhead cranes because the boss felt they went to the bathroom to much more that men. How silly is that? Sad to say, but the Glass Ceiling still exists in the workplace for women, you're kidding yourself if you think different.

Karen

[Nigella]

I just put in a 33 year career in a steel mill, and if you think discrimination against women still doesn't exist today, then you are sadly mistaken. I saw it constantly over those years, it was a never ending battle for the women there to get the top paying jobs, and that's even with a system based on senority only. Women were banned for years from the overhead cranes because the boss felt they went to the bathroom to much more that men. How silly is that? Sad to say, but the Glass Ceiling still exists in the workplace for women, you're kidding yourself if you think different.

Karen

I second this, but would add not just in the workplace.

[Kate Simmons]

Well said, Hon. What I've always said, it's the woman (or man) who makes the clothes and not vice versa. Personally, I'm preferring to look like a mixture between guy and girl lately. Ericka Kay

[sue on sunday]

You are correct in what you say my wife is the most feminin woman i know
even when she is in trousers.
But as a rare dresser ( my wife hates it ) i feel most feminin when i am dressed in the most remal clothes i can ware even down to silky underware
when most femals ware cotten when they can because of comfort.
So it is jelesy when we moan about what women can ware wether it is male or femal clothes

[~Kitty GG~]

Women? More like maybe a few grandmothers. Women today in their 20's to 40's haven't battled or earned jack &*(&/. Such a statement implys that if I endure enough prosecution for wearing what I want, I can enjoy the same freedom women do today. Not true.

Whoops, there I go again, telling it like it is. I forgot how much it's not liked. oh that's right re-read that double standard chapter again.

I dunno how much prosecution you have to endure.. but I do know that even if you endure persecution it won't get you anywhere in life.

The women who came before me and did such a good job didn't endure the persecution or even the rules of society. The stood up to them and they changed how things are.

I'm lucky enough to live in the world that they changed. That you don't think I've earned this.. your problem dude.

That the cds of the future will still be living with the same prejudices as you are.. well again that's your prob dude. You could be the generation that liberates men and/or cds.

Or you can just whine and say offencive things about us GGs.

~Kitty~

[suzy]

I just have one question of you.....

10-9???

[Calliope]

The double standard bit about 'women wearing men's clothes' is a tempting but imperfect analogy; women wanted the pants to 'ride horses and build houses' - theirs has been a liberation project. CDs want a very different sort of liberation - a freedom of fantasy.

Compounding the problem with achieving a symmetry of experience, as women have simplified their appearance (less makeup, jeans, etc.), CDs remain frozen in an earlier era's style (dresses, makeup, heels) because their quest to resist biological limitations has received no commensurate liberation. This is a bit of a wall, alas, but fortunately there is a tenuous middle ground: both GGs and CDs want the power to pick and choose between genders.

In this sense, each of us are 'montage artists' of a sort - and we are moving society as a whole towards a less restrictive future.

GGs are tempted to smirk at the sight of men 'trying to be women' (better said as men trying to find their feminine souls) just as men have been smirking at the sight of GGs 'trying to be men' (better said as trying to achieve equal rights).

Compounding the problem is that CDing has its own particular evolution ... and the early awkward age is ridiculously sexualized. Staying in the closet eternalizes 'puberty.'

Does any of this make sense to anyone?

[Kimberley]

Ignoring the issue of "passing", I think Karen has perhaps been most accurate in this assessment. The rights of people, not just women need to be addressed.

Women have come a long way and still have a long way to go for true equality, and yes there are some here on both sides of the gender wall who dont see their own prejudices in this, more than a few to be sure.

Men are equally discriminated against like it or not but for different reasons. The rise to power in the workplace is littered with the bodies of many men, so please stop the holier than thou accusations. Outside of work there are many barriers to men as well. Face it gender barriers exist everywhere.

Transgendered people are definitely the most discriminated against in terms of gender, and like it or not, the LGB community is VERY guilty of this. (In case you missed it, read the link to the SOVO article Malrena Dahlstrom posted for a prime example.) Of course the glaring example is Gypsy Karen's battles.

We all have our own prejudices of one sort or another and we need to make sure our brains are loaded before shooting off our mouths.

Kimberley