Curious

[Nigella]

On another forum, this thought never came up, I suppose because the F2M community seemed to be non existent, or at least not very vocal. But anyway here is a few questions for the F2Ms.

A M2F can slot into a small pigeon hole and stick a label on themselves, although a large number of us hate labels, be they a CD, TG, TV or whatever, but does the F2M community have the same?

Are you a female who wants to dress up, or are you a female who wants to be male? From what I have read, your world seems to be a lot easier and clear cut, have I read right? Is there the stigma attached to your chosen lifestyle like there is to ours?

Depending upon your replies I may have a lot more questions to ask.

*Its a good job I aint a cat *

[Kieron Andrew]

as you know me pretty well Nigella you are probably aware i consider myself TS therefore i feel i need to be male on the outside as well as what i feel in the inside......

Stigma? yes as FTMs we get loads......more than you may think.......the classic one is we are all butch lesbian, or the urrghhh one is butch dykes! we are veryy rarely accepted as guys, but girls who dress in boys clothes, i am not accepted as male by the outside world only by friends that know me only as Kieron not as 'she'

[Shadowls]

this a very hard question for me, other than the easy answer of I am me.

i feel that i was given the corect body, even thought it is the one who is confused. it's my body because of a hormone inbalence that can't make a clear choice of the true gender. i'm a female that doesn't want to have to worry about female things. i don't want to be treated like a female, and i want to be respected for who i am as a person. from watching people while i was growing up i found that people got treated differently by how they looked or dressed, i found that girls got labled by what they wore and guys got labeled by how they acted. i wanted to be labeled (if i had to be at all) for who i was and what i did, not by how i looked or dressed. of all the labels i found for females tomboy fit what i wanted best.

i had to show the guys i was just as good as they where, but because how i dressed and acted i was given that chance.

[CaptLex]

On another forum, this thought never came up, I suppose because the F2M community seemed to be non existent, or at least not very vocal.

Unfortunately, that's the reality - it seems to be non-existent. This is why I try to do what I can to keep this little section of ours going. I know there are a lot of us out there, but there aren't many places for us to meet each other, so we end up thinking we're all alone in this.

A M2F can slot into a small pigeon hole and stick a label on themselves, although a large number of us hate labels, be they a CD, TG, TV or whatever, but does the F2M community have the same?

Yeah, we're not all the same - some identify as TS, TG, CD, tomboy, genderqueer, androgynous or something else entirely. I think what we all have in common is that we fall somewhere on the trans-masculine spectrum.

Are you a female who wants to dress up, or are you a female who wants to be male? From what I have read, your world seems to be a lot easier and clear cut, have I read right? Is there the stigma attached to your chosen lifestyle like there is to ours?

Like Kieron, I also identify as TS. In what way does our world seem easier and clear cut? We go through some of the same hassles, harassments and misunderstandings as MtFs, including fearing for our physical safety at times.

Depending upon your replies I may have a lot more questions to ask.

Keep 'em coming!

[Nigella]

In what way does our world seem easier and clear cut?

Reading some of the posts in the M2F forum, you would think that we carry the world on our shoulders, a chipped nail, or run in tights is the end of the world, and we want the world to know it.

In contrast, and I have to admit not reading many posts, the F2M forum does not carry the same type of "problems", I mean would your world end if you had 2 odd socks on or the tie you chose clashed with your underwear? I think not, you seem to get on and make do.

Another question or two ...

The average M2F has an "ideal" image in their minds of how they believe a genetic female should look, and I must admit, a good few of them are way out. Do you have the same "ideal" image of how a genetic male should look?

When I look in the mirror, I'm under no illusions, I'm a man in a dress (or skirt or whatever) what do you see when you look in the mirror?

[Sandra]

Reading some of the posts in the M2F forum, you would think that we carry the world on our shoulders, a chipped nail, or run in tights is the end of the world, and we want the world to know it.

In contrast, and I have to admit not reading many posts, the F2M forum does not carry the same type of "problems", I mean would your world end if you had 2 odd socks on or the tie you chose clashed with your underwear? I think not, you seem to get on and make do.

Another question or two ...

The average M2F has an "ideal" image in their minds of how they believe a genetic female should look, [SIZE="2"]and I must admit, a good few of them are way out. [/SIZE] Do you have the same "ideal" image of how a genetic male should look?

When I look in the mirror, I'm under no illusions, I'm a man in a dress (or skirt or whatever) what do you see when you look in the mirror?

I would go here for a while...................... I'll let you know when it's safe to come out.

[Kieron Andrew]

Reading some of the posts in the M2F forum, you would think that we carry the world on our shoulders, a chipped nail, or run in tights is the end of the world, and we want the world to know it.

In contrast, and I have to admit not reading many posts, the F2M forum does not carry the same type of "problems", I mean would your world end if you had 2 odd socks on or the tie you chose clashed with your underwear? I think not, you seem to get on and make do.

Thats cos we dont broadcast it in the same way as the MTFs.....personally i am very private about the tough things in my life so if anything i would only say these things amongst the boys in the boys clubhouse where the MTFs cant read it!

[Nigella]

thats cos we don't broadcast it in the same way as the MTFs.....personally i am very private about the tough things in my life so if anything i would only say these things among the boys in the boys clubhouse where the MTFs cant read

I can understand that you want to keep things private, we all have our little secrets, but we are all "brothers and sisters" here. The M2Fs rely on the genetic females for help and support on a number of topics, and not just to do with the make-up or style. Are you not able to rely on a genetic male to help bounce your problems off? I can understand you not wanting to talk to a TS, as they are trying to get rid of the "male" in them, but some CDs are like me, male at heart and may have an insight to your trials and tribulations?

[Shadowls]

In contrast, and I have to admit not reading many posts, the F2M forum does not carry the same type of "problems", I mean would your world end if you had 2 odd socks on or the tie you chose clashed with your underwear? I think not, you seem to get on and make do.

Another question or two ...

The average M2F has an "ideal" image in their minds of how they believe a genetic female should look, and I must admit, a good few of them are way out. Do you have the same "ideal" image of how a genetic male should look?

When I look in the mirror, I'm under no illusions, I'm a man in a dress (or skirt or whatever) what do you see when you look in the mirror?

guys in general don't worry or even care if thier socks match except for the color and they ask the question of thier girls "how long have i've been wearing these socks?"

i have no ideal image of how a guy should look, i know how i like my guys to look.

when i look into the mirror i see me, some times i see the female me at 221lbs. and then i just feel emotionally bad.

[CaptLex]

Reading some of the posts in the M2F forum, you would think that we carry the world on our shoulders, a chipped nail, or run in tights is the end of the world, and we want the world to know it. In contrast, and I have to admit not reading many posts, the F2M forum does not carry the same type of "problems", I mean would your world end if you had 2 odd socks on or the tie you chose clashed with your underwear? I think not, you seem to get on and make do.

LOL! That was cute, but I really shouldn't laugh. After all, I can understand how the myth of the ideal female can drive an MtF to seek total perfection in their presentation. Men don't usually have to live up to such standards, though, do they? For the record, my tie doesn't have to match my boxer briefs, but my undershirt does.

I think that Kieron is right about our being more private about our problems. I know that I also internalize things more, so I tend to present a calm, stoic exterior even when things are boiling inside. But I do sometimes ask for opinions and advice on this forum - from everyone and anyone.

Another question or two ...

The average M2F has an "ideal" image in their minds of how they believe a genetic female should look, and I must admit, a good few of them are way out. Do you have the same "ideal" image of how a genetic male should look? When I look in the mirror, I'm under no illusions, I'm a man in a dress (or skirt or whatever) what do you see when you look in the mirror?

No, I don't have an image of how a genetic male should look (well maybe Johnny Depp ). Maybe it's because I'm attracted to all sorts of men, so the outside package is not as important to me as what goes on between his ears. I will admit to some disillusionment when I look in the mirror sometimes. But it's not because I don't look like a certain type of man, it's because I can see that I have a long way to go before people look at me and don't question my gender identity.

All good questions, Nigella.

[Kieron Andrew]

No, I don't have an image of how a genetic male should look (well maybe Johnny Depp ). Maybe it's because I'm attracted to all sorts of men, so the outside package is not as important to me as what goes on between his ears. I will admit to some disillusionment when I look in the mirror sometimes. But it's not because I don't look like a certain type of man, it's because I can see that I have a long way to go before people look at me and don't question my gender identity.

(well everything except the Johnny Depp thingy!)

[Kimberley]

If I may? Cap'n can delete this if he wants.

I agree there seems to be this "ideal" on the M2F side. Probably why I dont dwell on fashion mags other than to study photographic, makeup and style techniques. It is also probably why I have some difficulty relating to many of the threads (Unlike this forum where the talk is far more poignant in my opinion.)

Like Nigella, I have no illusions and no desire to frighten small children and animals so I stay very low key.

Just a couple of other comments. Kieron, your photo certainly puts you on the passable side IMHO.

As to bouncing ideas and thoughts etc, the clubhouse is definitely a haven but dont lose sight of the fact that there are others of us who can and will help, and do so with the utmost of privacy for you guys. We do value the GG's opinions and private messages are very common. So dont be shy to get to know a few of us even if we are whatever label.


As always to all.

Kimberley.

[Kieron Andrew]

Just a couple of other comments. Kieron, your photo certainly puts you on the passable side IMHO.

ok you can stop that now lol, i wonder if you would say that in person lol

[Kieron Andrew]

i wasnt saying i dont value all your opinions as i most certainly do, its just i myself feel more comfortable talking about FTM stuff with other FTMs in private when it is of a delicate personal nature.......you cant change the way someone feels more comfortable with certain people

[Kate Simmons]

Accepting everyone for who they are is basic for me. I'll admit there are some issues hard to understand on both sides of the gender "fence" ( don't get me started). The bottom line to me is I'll always appreciate everyone for who they are and celebrate that friendship. I understand that there are some "guy" issues the guys would rather talk to each other about and never had a problem with that. In fact, being a guy, I understand it totally. On the other hand, I don't have a problem if a gal chips a nail or gets her panties in a wad and am pretty tolerant that way. That's why we're all here, to help each other through this crazy thing we call life. I wouldn't have it any other way really and if we're considered "misfits", I'd hate to see the rest of the world as I would trust my life to these "misfits" any day. Okay, I'll shut up now but just had to say that. Ericka

[Nigella]

I have noticed that some F2Ms identify as TS, and then later go on to say

I'm attracted to all sorts of men

how does this then identify you sexually, do you consider yourself hetro or gay?

[CaptLex]

how does this then identify you sexually, do you consider yourself hetro or gay?

Just like the rest of the general population, some of us are attracted to men, some to women and some to both. Personally, I consider myself a gay man because my attraction to men has not changed since I've started transitioning, and I haven't developed an attraction to women.

[Abraxas]

Argh, I wrote a really long, well-though-out reply last night but then my computer went and erased it . . .
Anyway, haha, to answer your last question, I consider myself gay (I just fancy boys and have never had any inclination toward girls).

[CaptLex]

Argh, I wrote a really long, well-though-out reply last night but then my computer went and erased it . . .

Sorry to hear that . . . I would love to have read it, as I'm sure it was full of your usual insight (and humor). If you can piece it together again somehow, please re-post.

[Shadowls]

i'd say i'm bi, but mostly i'm attracted to some ones personality other then what gender they are

[Abraxas]

Well, Cap't, since you asked lol
This is going to end up entirely different, but whatever.

Stigma, yes. There is a certain amount that comes with the territory. As others have said, there is usually the labeling going on-- 'bulldyke' or 'tomboy' or whatever. It's much the same as with MTFs, I suppose-- most people just don't get it. Or they may think they do, but they really don't. In all honesty, I don't think you CAN get it unless you've lived it (and, even then, it can be very confusing).

In the real world, when people come across something they don't know anything about, they usually get scared or intimidated. And, of course, that initiates the 'fight or flight' response. Either they (fight) make fun of you, or tell you what you're doing is wrong or bad, or they beat you up-- or, on the other side (flight), they close their mind and refuse to even try to understand where you're coming from. I'm not saying that this is what always happens, but it can and does.
While it's true that girls can, I suppose, get away with wearing boys' clothes more than boys can get away with wearing girls' clothes, there are still prejudices and stereotypes in the back of peoples' minds. A lot of people think MTFs are gay because they wear womens' clothes. Okay, so some MTFs are gay, or bi, but that's not the point. It really doesn't make a lot of sense. Gay men are (generally) men who enjoy being men and want to be with other men.
On the flipside of that coin, FTMs are often read as lesbians-- and while some do fancy women, most of us want to be guys. No matter what side of whose fence you're on, people just don't really realise that sex, gender identity, and sexual orientation are three completely separate things. Just because someones' sex is male doesn't mean their gender is male and doesn't mean they fancy women. But then, you all know that so I didn't really need to tell you.

Now, as for an ideal image of what a guy should look like, or what I would want to look like . . . I'm fairly comfortable with the way I look. I wouldn't want to look exactly like anyone else-- if I looked like Hugh Laurie, then people would think I was him lol!
No, I'd want to look more or less like me, but with slightly more masculine features. More muscles, facial hair, a more angular jaw, and lower-set eyebrows. That kind of thing. Me, but with minor modifications. I'd like to upgrade to a newer model, haha! Although I wouldn't object to having Mr. Laurie's gorgeous blue eyes!

As for who I see-- am I male or female to myself . . . That's a hard one I suppose, because I don't think in the third person
I have always seen myself as male, though-- thought of myself as a boy, a bloke, a guy, a dude, what-have-you. And I'll admit that sometimes when I undress for a shower and catch sight of myself in the mirror I'm a bit shocked for just a second-- 'hang on a minute-- where'd all THIS come from?'
And of course, anyone who has any sort of gender confusion-- anyone who thinks about it a lot-- is going to be reminded of their physical sex by any number of little things daily-- 'my bra strap is uncomfortable', or 'my beard is starting to grow in'-- little stuff like that, that most people don't even think about in the day-to-day workings of life. But for people like us, it's hard not to be reminded that we're not exactly who/what we want to be.

Now, more on my sexual attraction (because I like talking about boys!). I'm definitely a gay boy-- as gay as they come lol. And I do like all types of guys. I did date an MTF TS once (pre-op, pre-everything) . . . And, to be honest, I'm not sure if I'd do it again. It didn't really feel right to me. But that may just be because she was fairly selfish and didn't treat me with as much respect as I treated her with, and I felt I deserved. That might have dampened my experience.
As for coming out to various people (I do it all the bloody time these days)-- they pretty much figure out from the onset, if it's a purely social situation, that I'm gay. I'm very open about saying stuff like 'oh, he's hot' or whatever. Then generally they'll ask me about it. And if they seem cool, I'll be like 'actually, I am gay but I'm also trans.' The response has been great-- I've been lucky in meeting really open-minded people. These folks usually congratulate me for being myself in such a conservative place, and that makes me feel cool.
Anyway, I seem to have gone off on a number of tangents and have probably answered questions that weren't even asked (and probably didn't answer questions that were) so I'll shut up now lol
That's what you get for asking interesting questions!

[CaptLex]

Well, Cap't, since you asked lol

Thanks for taking the time to piece it together again, Abraxas. You hit every major point and covered the whole experience. It doesn't matter if you don't look like Hugh Laurie and I'll never look like Johnny Depp - as long as we're comfortable with ourselves and happy as we are.

P.S. I know what you mean about those "mirror moments".

[Nigella]

That's what you get for asking interesting questions!

How do you define interesting? I am curious mainly because from what I see, the two communities, F2M and M2F, are not that different in their needs and wants, their triumphs and downfalls, but far apart in actually being "one" group.

M2Fs feel hard done by because society in general won't or can't accept a "man in a dress" whereby it can accept a "woman in trousers", but there is much more to it than just that. If my experiences as a M2F are anything to go by, you have just as hard a time as we do in most things to do with your transgenderism.

I really appreciate your input into satisfying my curiosity.

[Abraxas]

No problem Cap't.

Nigella:
An interesting question is any question that makes me think or re-examine myself, or try to put into words how I feel.
I think you're right in that all of us here are trying to accomplish more or less the same thing, at least on some level-- acceptance is what we're going for.
Society can't (for the most part) accept a man in a dress but the difference here is, they generally know why the man is wearing a dress. They understand (perhaps sometimes incorrectly) that there is a desire of some sort to appear as a woman, or a turnon when wearing the clothes. What I mean is, people are more educated and more aware of MTFs, even if they may not be as accepting.

Whereas when society sees an FTM, they don't recognise us for what we are. They either see us as boys (which is fine) or they see us as lesbians or tomboys. My problem (and I won't speak for all the guys but I have a feeling some of them will go along with this) is that I don't want to be seen as a lesbian or tomboy-- and not because I have anything against them. I don't. I just want to be seen as me. And if I can't be seen as a boy, then I want to be seen and recognised as an FTM. Just not a girl. I think that, really, is where the discrimination is-- purely the fact that we don't 'get any press,' so to speak. Nobody even knows we exist, nobody's educated about us at all, so they don't know how to react. Moreover, they don't even think about it unless confronted by it (if they see me and question my sex/gender). And even then, they probably think I'm just kind of andro or whatever-- it probably doesn't even occur to them that I might be TG.

Okay, that's enough out of me!

[Sandra]

Hi Guys,

I will be honest until last year I think it was when Kieron joined another forum that I was on, I didn't even know that FtoMs existed naive hey, but this thread has opened my eyes to the FtoM issues.

Just don't let Nigella know its a good thread or her head will swell that much she won't fit through the door.