But how does it actually hurt anyone?

[battybattybats]

Hmm... I'm trying to puzzle this one out. Many of the arguments agaisnt crossdressing when in relationships seem to come from an idea that doing so will somehow 'hurt' the SO.

So what I want to know is how it can hurt them and why it can hurt them. Where does the hurt come from?

This is of course apart from any arguments about decpetion, lying or hiding that can occur in some relationships. So if those aspects are removed (or nor present to start with) where does the hurt come from?

A bhuddist friend of mine suggested that it comes from the SO having an expectation or desire of their husbands perceived masculinity or 'normality' and that the thwarting of this desire is what produces pain, but that that is a pain that allows for growth of the persons awareness and therefore is a good and positive pain to inflict on someone.

Another view I've heard is that accepting the free will of others is hard, the closer someone is to you the more you want to have a say in their choices especially if you feel those choices are bad ones and that it always hurts when someone close to you does something that you don't want them to do.

Then it has been suggested to me that there is a greater pressure to conform among women (personally I suspect it might be worse amongst men) and that being forced to have a life less 'normal' causes this pain.

Now surely there must be more to it than just these ideas so can anyone explain to me just what the nature of the SO's hurt is?

[Talon DeRojo]

Batty - I imagine that the hurt comes from having one's expectations violated ("You're a man and men don't/aren't supposed to do that."), uncertainty as to where it will all lead ("Are you turning gay? Bi? Transsexual?), and feeling trapped ("With whom can I possibly discuss this?"). If you go out in public, what if you get caught? Will it affect your job or standing in the community? Will people think less of either of us if they know? Given our culture, what is the possibility of verbal or physical assault? Some of it may simply be from a negative emotional reaction to CDing that one cannot get past.
I hope that some GGs ring in on this one.
Talon

[Carin's Wife GG]

it is an intangible hurt. One that is not seen by others on the *outside*. There is the loss of the *ideal*, the *normal*. There is the hurt of the CD's *teenage years* when everything has to do with crossdressing. There is the hurt that you cannot be fully open and honest with even your best friend for fear of rejection (had that happen in a round about way). There is the hurt of not being able to tell your children when you have raised them with truth as one of your core values. There is, in the beginning, the hurt of feeling less of a woman, not enough for the CDer. There is the hurt of deciept (intentional or not). There is the hurt of aggreementsmade only to be broken when the CDer finds his needs expanding. There is the hurt of the unknown and where the journey may take you. There is the hurt.



Louise.

[KirstyChibiMoon]

well thats life....
its a large world out there and if im hurting people by being a full time crossdresser then oh well.
they will get over it, eventually.
<giggles>
if not, im probally better off not knowing them anyway.

life is too short to worry about what everyone else is thinking.

[Carin's Wife GG]

well thats life....
its a large world out there and if im hurting people by being a full time crossdresser then oh well.
they will get over it, eventually.
<giggles>
if not, im probally better off not knowing them anyway.

life is too short to worry about what everyone else is thinking.

doesn't think like you.


Louise.

[KirstyChibiMoon]

doesn't think like you.


Louise.

and i'm glad i dont think like you...
i have fought in three wars... grenade, panama and desert storm...
i feel like i have earn'd the right to be who i want to be...
sorry if i offended anyone.. but that is life.

if i worried about what everyone else thought, i'd never leave the house.
<giggles>
relax, u'll live longer

[Danielle_oc_ca]

In Tri-Ess, talking to wary SOs it seems the main hurt is not to the SO themselves. What they seem to be more worried about is what others may think . That they are afraid of the hurt that would come from the embarrassment they think they may experience if someone else found out.

Yes, there is the loss of what they expected in a man. My ex was that way but most women are OK with a bit of cross dressing under the following conditions:

The male dresses as a female parody and make little or no attempt to look good.

The crossdressing is done in private so no one else ever finds out.

Personally, I do not accept these rules. But then I live alone now. And the divorce was because of other reasons.

Danielle

[Carin's Wife GG]

In Tri-Ess, talking to wary SOs it seems the main hurt is not to the SO themselves. What they seem to be more worried about is what others may think . That they are afraid of the hurt that would come from the embarrassment they think they may experience if someone else found out.

Yes, there is the loss of what they expected in a man. My ex was that way but most women are OK with a bit of cross dressing under the following conditions:

The male dresses as a female parody and make little or no attempt to look good.

The crossdressing is done in private so no one else ever finds out.

Personally, I do not accept these rules. But then I live alone now. And the divorce was because of other reasons.

Danielle

either. I want Carin to look her best at all times.


Louise.

[Robin Leigh]

well thats life....
its a large world out there and if im hurting people by being a full time crossdresser then oh well.
they will get over it, eventually.
<giggles>
if not, im probally better off not knowing them anyway.

life is too short to worry about what everyone else is thinking.

In Kirsty's defense, it seems she didn't realize that this thread was about how CDing hurts SOs, and she was speaking about how her CDing affects the general public.

Robin

[Diane CDN]

Put yourself in her shoes (no..not literally)...
She comes home one day made up like a man and maybe even getting testosterone injections...how would you feel ?
I have talked to so many T girls over the years that seem to think its my way or the highway attitude....God bless woman and their wonderful tolerance.
We could all learn so much if we only listened....

Diane

[Carin's Wife GG]

Put yourself in her shoes (no..not literally)...
She comes home one day made up like a man and maybe even getting testosterone injections...how would you feel ?
I have talked to so many T girls over the years that seem to think its my way or the highway attitude....God bless woman and their wonderful tolerance.
We could all learn so much if we only listened....

Diane

for the general compliment.


Louise.

[Carin]

If you are in that extremely small minority such that .... you know AND understand your self completely,AND you declare that to you SO well before you get seriously involved and/or married, AND she accepts AND she likes AND enjoys that piece of you , then maybe there is no hurt directly due to crossdressing. But for the rest of us in long term relationships ...

Relationships and marriage are about life dreams, some reasonable expectations, trust, comfort and security, a safe place where you do not have to be on the defensive, where you can relax from the outside world, and get to know you partner over the years. Of course long term relationship face challenges in its normal course, and strong relationships survive these through hard work and committment.

The hurt happens when we introduce crossdressing after the foundations of the relationahip have been established. The hurt comes from one partner singlehandedly threathening ALL of those basic components in one blow. We can not even give a good reason as to why. The hurt is in taking that safe haven and threatening it. The hurt is in forcing a change in her expectations. The hurt is in injectinig fears that were not there before. Our culture contributes in a negative way, but the CDer is the catalist. Yes, that person that she had counted on being there for her, is now FORCING her out of her comfort zone. And these are not issues that she can leave in the office, to go home to her safe place.

Someone said "Well thats life". Well, no that's not life as she new it, or expected it to be. Take it or leave it???? Girl that hurts her when she has put so much of her life into that relationship. Because it is saying that your "Game of Golf" is more important to you that your relationship. That is not how it is, but it is the message that is conveyed.

I am so thankful to my dear SO for having the strength and courage to withstand these hurts and to eventually be able to see how it really is.


Carin

Carin

[EmmaB GG]

Sometimes it can be a bit like seeing the man you fell in love with, die a little bit.

Sometimes its about mourning a relationship that the GG SO was comfortable and very happy in, and thought was perfect.

Sometimes its about being told you "have" to like this new person (because thats how it's often seen - a new person)

Sometimes it challenges the GG's sexuality which they've spent many years sorting out into something they're comfortable and happy with, especially if the CDing SO is trying to work out if they're TS.

Sometimes it causes so much pain and hurt in the CDing SO that this pain gets transferred - simply because you love the person so much you naturally want to take away that pain (a natural GG reaction for many?)

Sometimes its all of them at once, sometimes none of them or others ....

[EmmaB GG]

I hate to say this, but isn't trying to "sort out" something so highly emotional to a GG ("how does it actually hurt?") in a very black and white way a very characteristically male way of dealing with things ... !

[kittypw GG]

If you are in that extremely small minority such that .... you know AND understand your self completely,AND you declare that to you SO well before you get seriously involved and/or married, AND she accepts AND she likes AND enjoys that piece of you , then maybe there is no hurt directly due to crossdressing. But for the rest of us in long term relationships ...

Relationships and marriage are about life dreams, some reasonable expectations, trust, comfort and security, a safe place where you do not have to be on the defensive, where you can relax from the outside world, and get to know you partner over the years. Of course long term relationship face challenges in its normal course, and strong relationships survive these through hard work and committment.

The hurt happens when we introduce crossdressing after the foundations of the relationahip have been established. The hurt comes from one partner singlehandedly threathening ALL of those basic components in one blow. We can not even give a good reason as to why. The hurt is in taking that safe haven and threatening it. The hurt is in forcing a change in her expectations. The hurt is in injectinig fears that were not there before. Our culture contributes in a negative way, but the CDer is the catalist. Yes, that person that she had counted on being there for her, is now FORCING her out of her comfort zone. And these are not issues that she can leave in the office, to go home to her safe place.

Someone said "Well thats life". Well, no that's not life as she new it, or expected it to be. Take it or leave it???? Girl that hurts her when she has put so much of her life into that relationship. Because it is saying that your "Game of Golf" is more important to you that your relationship. That is not how it is, but it is the message that is conveyed.

I am so thankful to my dear SO for having the strength and courage to withstand these hurts and to eventually be able to see how it really is.


Carin

Carin

What a lovely way to put it. This attitude is probably behind why you have a loving relationsip and an accepting wife. Kitty

[Iniquity Blonde GG]

Its the feeling of total and unexpected'ness that you "thought" you knew ur SO, but then like out-of-the-blue comes the c/d . Its extremley hard to take onboard and realise whats going on @ first you feel "violated" because theres this "other" person they become, and your no part of it , every emotion possible runs through you sadly BUT , if you love that person , and see beyound the "c/d" then...... it is manageble

[Kate Simmons]

All of the foregoing posts have given me much to think about. When I fell in love with and married that beautiful girl 32 years ago, I had every intention of being her perfect man and on the surface, I was. I had doubts, however, and assuaged those doubts by secret CDing. When she found out about it, she was hurt, deeply hurt and had doubts in herself. She kept trying to help me over the years but I always seemed to have my own CD agenda, which, to her, appeared more important than my love for her and my family. I think at times it was, especially when I became desparate.

Eventually, we grew further and further apart as the children got older. Finally, I came out openly and she could no longer pretend to tolerate it. What WAS more important to me anyway? I failed her by refusing to give her my trust and she could no longer trust me because of all the deceit. We are still married but not living together. In a sense, the man she married "died" a while ago and she has since gone through the mourning process and adjusted. I've suggested trying again but she is hesitant to have me come back from the "dead" only to lose me once again because she knows how much a part of me this is and doesn't think I can ever let it go. She is probably right as she is a very wise woman. My deepest regret is having hurt her so much by shutting her out. The love of my life is farther away than ever before. It's a tough lesson to learn, especially when you know how much you've hurt someone you hold dear.

[Carin's Wife GG]

If you are in that extremely small minority such that .... you know AND understand your self completely,AND you declare that to you SO well before you get seriously involved and/or married, AND she accepts AND she likes AND enjoys that piece of you , then maybe there is no hurt directly due to crossdressing. But for the rest of us in long term relationships ...

Relationships and marriage are about life dreams, some reasonable expectations, trust, comfort and security, a safe place where you do not have to be on the defensive, where you can relax from the outside world, and get to know you partner over the years. Of course long term relationship face challenges in its normal course, and strong relationships survive these through hard work and committment.

The hurt happens when we introduce crossdressing after the foundations of the relationahip have been established. The hurt comes from one partner singlehandedly threathening ALL of those basic components in one blow. We can not even give a good reason as to why. The hurt is in taking that safe haven and threatening it. The hurt is in forcing a change in her expectations. The hurt is in injectinig fears that were not there before. Our culture contributes in a negative way, but the CDer is the catalist. Yes, that person that she had counted on being there for her, is now FORCING her out of her comfort zone. And these are not issues that she can leave in the office, to go home to her safe place.

Someone said "Well thats life". Well, no that's not life as she new it, or expected it to be. Take it or leave it???? Girl that hurts her when she has put so much of her life into that relationship. Because it is saying that your "Game of Golf" is more important to you that your relationship. That is not how it is, but it is the message that is conveyed.

I am so thankful to my dear SO for having the strength and courage to withstand these hurts and to eventually be able to see how it really is.


Carin

Carin

and I love you!



Louise.

[RobertaFermina]

The whole bhuddist thing about pain and attachment and expanding awareness by welcoming whatever experience comes is fabulous and cruel.

Fabulous for relationships with other bhuddists, or with people I know WILL grow through painful experiences.

Cruel for people I am reasonably certain will experience pain as just pain, and may even contract around that pain.

Not every S.O. is a bhuddist, or living in the embrace of a spiritual community and/or practice that can help them turn lemons into lemonade.

Those people get hurt.

It is sanctimonious and cruel to think "if they realized that this was an opportunity, they wouldn't have to be in such agony."


Roberta

[Carin's Wife GG]

The whole bhuddist thing about pain and attachment and expanding awareness by welcoming whatever experience comes is fabulous and cruel.

Fabulous for relationships with other bhuddists, or with people I know WILL grow through painful experiences.

Cruel for people I am reasonably certain will experience pain as just pain, and may even contract around that pain.

Not every S.O. is a bhuddist, or living in the embrace of a spiritual community and/or practice that can help them turn lemons into lemonade.

Those people get hurt.

It is sanctimonious and cruel to think "if they realized that this was an opportunity, they wouldn't have to be in such agony."


Roberta

Thank you!


Louise.

[Lovely Rita]

Maybe it is best to really listen to the SOs out there and get it straight from the horses mouth so to speak.

Some time we don't fully understand hurt ourselves. Dialogue is always good.

[aj_gg]

Also (while agreeing with the previously mentioned) were fears I had about, is he still the man I fell in love with? Have I become the "other woman" in his life? Does he still find me attractive? What if I do the wrong thing and he wants to leave me.

When my SO came out to me there were so many thoughts revolving around me. At the time I was very insecure about myself so I kept thinking that this was his way of getting rid of me. There was even a point that I was afraid that it wasn't even him any longer and once he tried to give me a hug while en femme and I just burst out crying saying "It's not you any more is it?" Well I was gravely wrong and we've gotten past that.

[Kerry Owens]

I am going to speak out very loudly. Lawren told me he was a CrossDresser right on the outset of our relationship once he realized how serious it was becoming. I am totally thankful he is the trusting, honest person he is.
Our marriage has strengthened because we do discuss together our feelings
and share the fun of learning about each other.
Lawren understands when I'm having a difficult time with ptsd, and is patient with me.
I feel sorry for someone who is wrapped up only in thierself and leaves everyonelse off their lives, they will find lonliness.

[Tamara Croft]

It hurts when you've been together for 20 years and then you find out. It hurts because for 20 years your hubby has lied and hidden things from you. It hurts because the man you married never gave you the chance to walk away. It hurts because now you're pushed into their closet, often with no one else to talk to, no information, no nothing. You're just expected to embrace it. Well it's not that simple, especially when the man you married wants to dress like a woman and in some cases, transition.

Alot of women then feel trapped, but can't do anything because they've been dependent on their hubby for the last 20 years, dependent on finances, the assets etc... And if the wife is in her 50's what can she do?

It hurts more than you know, more than you could understand. Just because you think it's ok, for a lot of women this just isn't normal and they can never accept it.

[Emma England]

It hurts when you've been together for 20 years and then you find out. It hurts because for 20 years your hubby has lied and hidden things from you. It hurts because the man you married never gave you the chance to walk away.

This is the problem. The man does not want you to walk away.