But how does it actually hurt anyone?

[battybattybats]

Hmm... I'm trying to puzzle this one out. Many of the arguments agaisnt crossdressing when in relationships seem to come from an idea that doing so will somehow 'hurt' the SO.

So what I want to know is how it can hurt them and why it can hurt them. Where does the hurt come from?

This is of course apart from any arguments about decpetion, lying or hiding that can occur in some relationships. So if those aspects are removed (or nor present to start with) where does the hurt come from?

A bhuddist friend of mine suggested that it comes from the SO having an expectation or desire of their husbands perceived masculinity or 'normality' and that the thwarting of this desire is what produces pain, but that that is a pain that allows for growth of the persons awareness and therefore is a good and positive pain to inflict on someone.

Another view I've heard is that accepting the free will of others is hard, the closer someone is to you the more you want to have a say in their choices especially if you feel those choices are bad ones and that it always hurts when someone close to you does something that you don't want them to do.

Then it has been suggested to me that there is a greater pressure to conform among women (personally I suspect it might be worse amongst men) and that being forced to have a life less 'normal' causes this pain.

Now surely there must be more to it than just these ideas so can anyone explain to me just what the nature of the SO's hurt is?

[Talon DeRojo]

Batty - I imagine that the hurt comes from having one's expectations violated ("You're a man and men don't/aren't supposed to do that."), uncertainty as to where it will all lead ("Are you turning gay? Bi? Transsexual?), and feeling trapped ("With whom can I possibly discuss this?"). If you go out in public, what if you get caught? Will it affect your job or standing in the community? Will people think less of either of us if they know? Given our culture, what is the possibility of verbal or physical assault? Some of it may simply be from a negative emotional reaction to CDing that one cannot get past.
I hope that some GGs ring in on this one.
Talon

[Carin's Wife GG]

it is an intangible hurt. One that is not seen by others on the *outside*. There is the loss of the *ideal*, the *normal*. There is the hurt of the CD's *teenage years* when everything has to do with crossdressing. There is the hurt that you cannot be fully open and honest with even your best friend for fear of rejection (had that happen in a round about way). There is the hurt of not being able to tell your children when you have raised them with truth as one of your core values. There is, in the beginning, the hurt of feeling less of a woman, not enough for the CDer. There is the hurt of deciept (intentional or not). There is the hurt of aggreementsmade only to be broken when the CDer finds his needs expanding. There is the hurt of the unknown and where the journey may take you. There is the hurt.



Louise.

[KirstyChibiMoon]

well thats life....
its a large world out there and if im hurting people by being a full time crossdresser then oh well.
they will get over it, eventually.
<giggles>
if not, im probally better off not knowing them anyway.

life is too short to worry about what everyone else is thinking.

[Carin's Wife GG]

well thats life....
its a large world out there and if im hurting people by being a full time crossdresser then oh well.
they will get over it, eventually.
<giggles>
if not, im probally better off not knowing them anyway.

life is too short to worry about what everyone else is thinking.

doesn't think like you.


Louise.

[Danielle_oc_ca]

In Tri-Ess, talking to wary SOs it seems the main hurt is not to the SO themselves. What they seem to be more worried about is what others may think . That they are afraid of the hurt that would come from the embarrassment they think they may experience if someone else found out.

Yes, there is the loss of what they expected in a man. My ex was that way but most women are OK with a bit of cross dressing under the following conditions:

The male dresses as a female parody and make little or no attempt to look good.

The crossdressing is done in private so no one else ever finds out.

Personally, I do not accept these rules. But then I live alone now. And the divorce was because of other reasons.

Danielle

[Carin's Wife GG]

In Tri-Ess, talking to wary SOs it seems the main hurt is not to the SO themselves. What they seem to be more worried about is what others may think . That they are afraid of the hurt that would come from the embarrassment they think they may experience if someone else found out.

Yes, there is the loss of what they expected in a man. My ex was that way but most women are OK with a bit of cross dressing under the following conditions:

The male dresses as a female parody and make little or no attempt to look good.

The crossdressing is done in private so no one else ever finds out.

Personally, I do not accept these rules. But then I live alone now. And the divorce was because of other reasons.

Danielle

either. I want Carin to look her best at all times.


Louise.

[noname]

Well it doesn't technically cause physical pain, though it could hurt in other ways. When someone marries or is in a long term relationship, they usually aren't in it just because they love you. You usually bring something to the table.

They are attaching themselves to you in the way that you meet some ideals of what a man should be. The way you talk, dress, your income and variety of other factors. Then she finds out you are now starkly different than she knew. Some find it easiest to walk away, others have too many attachments, and some work through it. So how does it hurt?

Aside from the picture perfect hubby/so image that came crashing down, she has to deal with other issues. Most women care a great deal about their social status. So's may feel they have undeservingly been thrown into some fringe group. They now have to worry about,

What if our friends find out?
What will my family think?
I hope the girls at work don't find out.
Will people think he's gay or bi?
Will people think I'm Bisexual!?!
I wonder if I'll be known as the wife/gf of that 'wierdo'

It could indirecty affect a serious career women, and her friend may tend to shy away. You have to admit, that is a lot to take in.

[Carin's Wife GG]

Well it doesn't technically cause physical pain, though it could hurt in other ways. When someone marries or is in a long term relationship, they usually aren't in it just because they love you. You usually bring something to the table.

They are attaching themselves to you in the way that you meet some ideals of what a man should be. The way you talk, dress, your income and variety of other factors. Then she finds out you are now starkly different than she knew. Some find it easiest to walk away, others have too many attachments, and some work through it. So how does it hurt?

Aside from the picture perfect hubby/so image that came crashing down, she has to deal with other issues. Most women care a great deal about their social status. So's may feel they have undeservingly been thrown into some fringe group. They now have to worry about,

What if our friends find out?
What will my family think?
I hope the girls at work don't find out.
Will people think he's gay or bi?
Will people think I'm Bisexual!?!
I wonder if I'll be known as the wife/gf of that 'wierdo'

It could indirecty affect a serious career women, and her friend may tend to shy away. You have to admit, that is a lot to take in.

and having worked through most of this, it finally came down to *walking the walk* of truth not just *talking the talk* of acceptance and love. It took a long time to get to this place,none of it was easy and sometimes there is still hurt (on both sides). I am glad I stuck around and got to know Carin better. I really do enjoy her company. I also like the husband part of my SO when he is around.



Louise.

[kittypw GG]

Some of the hurt comes from the selfish use of the extra household money. Why does any extra money have to be spent on cd stuff? Why can't some cd's go without some of the "stuff" so that they can take their wives on a vacation of their choice??? The hurt comes from the knowledge that the cd can't come up with the idea because he is always thinking about the next time he can cd and what he is going to wear.

The hurt come from all of the relationship energy always being sucked up by obsessive cd'ing. Always thinking about it, doing it, plotting to do it. Time and time again I read about how someone is mad or disapointed about a family member coming to visit or in need help. The complaints come because it is an interferance with cd'ing. Now that is what hurts me.

The hurt comes on many levels when a cd is out flurting with men and even sleeping with men behind a wife's back. The hurt comes when she is exposed to a deadly illness that she did not even see comming.

I could go on but I am afraid that it will fall on deaf ears. Many cd's don't really want to address the real hurt that their behavior causes. Just blame it on society and that you can't go out and wear what you want.
Just my opinion, take it or leave it. Kitty

[SandyR]

Walking into my Wifes office (married 22 years) with left over eyeliner, hurt her........Thank god she loves me enough to pull me aside and say "we need to buy you makeup remover". That emmbaressed her big time.

Enough said.

Be careful.

[crusadergirl]

I never really thought to much about how it hurts others or your SO. But i think kitty was right. Some of us take it too far. I can say thats not me, and i haven't hurt anyone by cding.
I'm sure theres more to life then just cding b/c i still do all the other things i like to do. Cding takes over ones life and as i can tell it hurts the ones you care about if you take it to far.
Thats all i have on that subject.

[battybattybats]

Some of the hurt comes from the selfish use of the extra household money. Why does any extra money have to be spent on cd stuff? Why can't some cd's go without some of the "stuff" so that they can take their wives on a vacation of their choice??? The hurt comes from the knowledge that the cd can't come up with the idea because he is always thinking about the next time he can cd and what he is going to wear.

The hurt come from all of the relationship energy always being sucked up by obsessive cd'ing. Always thinking about it, doing it, plotting to do it. Time and time again I read about how someone is mad or disapointed about a family member coming to visit or in need help. The complaints come because it is an interferance with cd'ing. Now that is what hurts me.

The hurt comes on many levels when a cd is out flurting with men and even sleeping with men behind a wife's back. The hurt comes when she is exposed to a deadly illness that she did not even see comming.

I could go on but I am afraid that it will fall on deaf ears. Many cd's don't really want to address the real hurt that their behavior causes. Just blame it on society and that you can't go out and wear what you want.
Just my opinion, take it or leave it. Kitty

Um... ok clearly you have a list of serious grievences there but please let me address them.

Your first complaint is definatly a valid one, but itd be the same if it were something else he spent the money on, its a problem with how extra household money gets split and clearly each person is entitled to a fair share of that and some should be used for both. If one partner is thinking too much of their own needs and isn't being romantic enough that too is a valid problem no matter the subject.

The second problem, wouldn't it be the same with any obsessive hobby or such? Would it be different if it were football or some hobby? I've heard lots of similar complaints from 'football widows' or 'world of warcraft widows' and I wonder if there is a strong difference there?

The third one is an even more serious valid problem as its a serious ethical matter and a big problem (because its done behind someones back). I don't see how thats different than if they were flirting with women or sleeping with women behind their wifes back. Having, even needing an 'open' or polyamorous relationship is one thing, a lifestyle choice, but risking infecting an SO unaware of the risk is clearly another.

The thing is, not one of these very valid problems seem to me to be about the crossdressing itself. There seems to be a problem with fair finance decisions and deficiancy in romance, a problem with finding fair amounts of shared time and a big problem with potentially risky behaviour. The crossdressing seems incidental. If one were to change the 'costume' of these problems they wouldn't practically change at all. Replace the word dressing with 'playing football' or 'going to the pub' and all remain valid complaints, essentially the same. The last one, whether with men or with women would also be the same no matter what.

All good and serious complaints but is the dressing the real cause/issue here or is it merely a surface subject, a veil over some deep and serious issues?

[Carin's Wife GG]

Um... ok clearly you have a list of serious grievences there but please let me address them.

Your first complaint is definatly a valid one, but itd be the same if it were something else he spent the money on, its a problem with how extra household money gets split and clearly each person is entitled to a fair share of that and some should be used for both. If one partner is thinking too much of their own needs and isn't being romantic enough that too is a valid problem no matter the subject.

The second problem, wouldn't it be the same with any obsessive hobby or such? Would it be different if it were football or some hobby? I've heard lots of similar complaints from 'football widows' or 'world of warcraft widows' and I wonder if there is a strong difference there?

The third one is an even more serious valid problem as its a serious ethical matter and a big problem (because its done behind someones back). I don't see how thats different than if they were flirting with women or sleeping with women behind their wifes back. Having, even needing an 'open' or polyamorous relationship is one thing, a lifestyle choice, but risking infecting an SO unaware of the risk is clearly another.

The thing is, not one of these very valid problems seem to me to be about the crossdressing itself. There seems to be a problem with fair finance decisions and deficiancy in romance, a problem with finding fair amounts of shared time and a big problem with potentially risky behaviour. The crossdressing seems incidental. If one were to change the 'costume' of these problems they wouldn't practically change at all. Replace the word dressing with 'playing football' or 'going to the pub' and all remain valid complaints, essentially the same. The last one, whether with men or with women would also be the same no matter what.

All good and serious complaints but is the dressing the real cause/issue here or is it merely a surface subject, a veil over some deep and serious issues?

the hurts that I know of are the less tangible (see my above post). For me personally,it was about mourning the loss of my percieved relationship. There was another persona to include (actually Carin/Pat are one) and I am getting to know her (and as a result him) better. It has taken her and I a goodly number of years to get to where we are now. The hurts still linger but they are easier for me now. I have been able to find that *inner peace* I have been searching for for so long. Part of that process WAS realizing that crossdressing is in and of itself quite harmless. Society's perception of the CDer however is not quite so harmless. I do think us SOs are more likely to pick up on society's less than kind perception of our CDing SOs. My daughter, just last night said that the only thing that bothers her about her father's CDing was that he may be made fun of and have his feelings hurt. Ihope I have explained my POV well enough.



Louise.

[Diane CDN]

Put yourself in her shoes (no..not literally)...
She comes home one day made up like a man and maybe even getting testosterone injections...how would you feel ?
I have talked to so many T girls over the years that seem to think its my way or the highway attitude....God bless woman and their wonderful tolerance.
We could all learn so much if we only listened....

Diane

[RobertaFermina]

The whole bhuddist thing about pain and attachment and expanding awareness by welcoming whatever experience comes is fabulous and cruel.

Fabulous for relationships with other bhuddists, or with people I know WILL grow through painful experiences.

Cruel for people I am reasonably certain will experience pain as just pain, and may even contract around that pain.

Not every S.O. is a bhuddist, or living in the embrace of a spiritual community and/or practice that can help them turn lemons into lemonade.

Those people get hurt.

It is sanctimonious and cruel to think "if they realized that this was an opportunity, they wouldn't have to be in such agony."


Roberta

[Carin's Wife GG]

The whole bhuddist thing about pain and attachment and expanding awareness by welcoming whatever experience comes is fabulous and cruel.

Fabulous for relationships with other bhuddists, or with people I know WILL grow through painful experiences.

Cruel for people I am reasonably certain will experience pain as just pain, and may even contract around that pain.

Not every S.O. is a bhuddist, or living in the embrace of a spiritual community and/or practice that can help them turn lemons into lemonade.

Those people get hurt.

It is sanctimonious and cruel to think "if they realized that this was an opportunity, they wouldn't have to be in such agony."


Roberta

Thank you!


Louise.

[Carin's Wife GG]

Put yourself in her shoes (no..not literally)...
She comes home one day made up like a man and maybe even getting testosterone injections...how would you feel ?
I have talked to so many T girls over the years that seem to think its my way or the highway attitude....God bless woman and their wonderful tolerance.
We could all learn so much if we only listened....

Diane

for the general compliment.


Louise.

[Carin]

If you are in that extremely small minority such that .... you know AND understand your self completely,AND you declare that to you SO well before you get seriously involved and/or married, AND she accepts AND she likes AND enjoys that piece of you , then maybe there is no hurt directly due to crossdressing. But for the rest of us in long term relationships ...

Relationships and marriage are about life dreams, some reasonable expectations, trust, comfort and security, a safe place where you do not have to be on the defensive, where you can relax from the outside world, and get to know you partner over the years. Of course long term relationship face challenges in its normal course, and strong relationships survive these through hard work and committment.

The hurt happens when we introduce crossdressing after the foundations of the relationahip have been established. The hurt comes from one partner singlehandedly threathening ALL of those basic components in one blow. We can not even give a good reason as to why. The hurt is in taking that safe haven and threatening it. The hurt is in forcing a change in her expectations. The hurt is in injectinig fears that were not there before. Our culture contributes in a negative way, but the CDer is the catalist. Yes, that person that she had counted on being there for her, is now FORCING her out of her comfort zone. And these are not issues that she can leave in the office, to go home to her safe place.

Someone said "Well thats life". Well, no that's not life as she new it, or expected it to be. Take it or leave it???? Girl that hurts her when she has put so much of her life into that relationship. Because it is saying that your "Game of Golf" is more important to you that your relationship. That is not how it is, but it is the message that is conveyed.

I am so thankful to my dear SO for having the strength and courage to withstand these hurts and to eventually be able to see how it really is.


Carin

Carin

[EmmaB GG]

Sometimes it can be a bit like seeing the man you fell in love with, die a little bit.

Sometimes its about mourning a relationship that the GG SO was comfortable and very happy in, and thought was perfect.

Sometimes its about being told you "have" to like this new person (because thats how it's often seen - a new person)

Sometimes it challenges the GG's sexuality which they've spent many years sorting out into something they're comfortable and happy with, especially if the CDing SO is trying to work out if they're TS.

Sometimes it causes so much pain and hurt in the CDing SO that this pain gets transferred - simply because you love the person so much you naturally want to take away that pain (a natural GG reaction for many?)

Sometimes its all of them at once, sometimes none of them or others ....

[EmmaB GG]

I hate to say this, but isn't trying to "sort out" something so highly emotional to a GG ("how does it actually hurt?") in a very black and white way a very characteristically male way of dealing with things ... !

[kittypw GG]

If you are in that extremely small minority such that .... you know AND understand your self completely,AND you declare that to you SO well before you get seriously involved and/or married, AND she accepts AND she likes AND enjoys that piece of you , then maybe there is no hurt directly due to crossdressing. But for the rest of us in long term relationships ...

Relationships and marriage are about life dreams, some reasonable expectations, trust, comfort and security, a safe place where you do not have to be on the defensive, where you can relax from the outside world, and get to know you partner over the years. Of course long term relationship face challenges in its normal course, and strong relationships survive these through hard work and committment.

The hurt happens when we introduce crossdressing after the foundations of the relationahip have been established. The hurt comes from one partner singlehandedly threathening ALL of those basic components in one blow. We can not even give a good reason as to why. The hurt is in taking that safe haven and threatening it. The hurt is in forcing a change in her expectations. The hurt is in injectinig fears that were not there before. Our culture contributes in a negative way, but the CDer is the catalist. Yes, that person that she had counted on being there for her, is now FORCING her out of her comfort zone. And these are not issues that she can leave in the office, to go home to her safe place.

Someone said "Well thats life". Well, no that's not life as she new it, or expected it to be. Take it or leave it???? Girl that hurts her when she has put so much of her life into that relationship. Because it is saying that your "Game of Golf" is more important to you that your relationship. That is not how it is, but it is the message that is conveyed.

I am so thankful to my dear SO for having the strength and courage to withstand these hurts and to eventually be able to see how it really is.


Carin

Carin

What a lovely way to put it. This attitude is probably behind why you have a loving relationsip and an accepting wife. Kitty

[Iniquity Blonde GG]

Its the feeling of total and unexpected'ness that you "thought" you knew ur SO, but then like out-of-the-blue comes the c/d . Its extremley hard to take onboard and realise whats going on @ first you feel "violated" because theres this "other" person they become, and your no part of it , every emotion possible runs through you sadly BUT , if you love that person , and see beyound the "c/d" then...... it is manageble

[Kate Simmons]

All of the foregoing posts have given me much to think about. When I fell in love with and married that beautiful girl 32 years ago, I had every intention of being her perfect man and on the surface, I was. I had doubts, however, and assuaged those doubts by secret CDing. When she found out about it, she was hurt, deeply hurt and had doubts in herself. She kept trying to help me over the years but I always seemed to have my own CD agenda, which, to her, appeared more important than my love for her and my family. I think at times it was, especially when I became desparate.

Eventually, we grew further and further apart as the children got older. Finally, I came out openly and she could no longer pretend to tolerate it. What WAS more important to me anyway? I failed her by refusing to give her my trust and she could no longer trust me because of all the deceit. We are still married but not living together. In a sense, the man she married "died" a while ago and she has since gone through the mourning process and adjusted. I've suggested trying again but she is hesitant to have me come back from the "dead" only to lose me once again because she knows how much a part of me this is and doesn't think I can ever let it go. She is probably right as she is a very wise woman. My deepest regret is having hurt her so much by shutting her out. The love of my life is farther away than ever before. It's a tough lesson to learn, especially when you know how much you've hurt someone you hold dear.

[Satrana]

Batty,

I think you have already answered your own question - it all revolves around normalcy and expectations.

Look at an alternative situation. A mother finds out her son is gay. Even if she accepts homosexuality and says she is happy for him, she is hurting inside.
She hurts because her son is not "normal"
She hurts because she knows he will face prejudices
She hurts because others will wonder what she did wrong to produce a gay son
She hurts because her family will be a hot gossip topic
She hurts because she will never have a daughter-in-law to chat to
She hurts because there will be no grandchildren
And so on.........

As soon as people are forced to step outside that which is normal and comfortable and have to accept an alternative reality, they hurt. It is deep personal hurt much of which, on the surface, is silly and irrational but nonetheless feels very real and suffocating. And because of the embarressing and shameful nature of the topic, she cannot find others to talk to to release her emotions. And it is all about emotions and little to do with rationality.

and having worked through most of this, it finally came down to *walking the walk* of truth not just *talking the talk* of acceptance and love.

Now there's the truth, actions always speak louder than words.