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Thread: But how does it actually hurt anyone?

  1. #26
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    Yes Yes i agree 1000%, thats exactly how I feel. Iam glad you said what I have een experiencing all along. three cheers yeh yeh yeh thnakyou kitty

  2. #27
    Senior Member Tree GG's Avatar
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    I love Buddhism

    I have yet to find a Buddhist doctrine I can't whole heartedly embrace. Very wise teachings.

    As with anything else in life, that which doesn't kill you makes you stronger. And I was not proud of my initial reaction to his CD plans, but as said before, they were very real feelings and hurts and uncertainties. I found a way through (although I am nowhere near done). I recently witnessed a "surprise" coming out to another family member and it was one of the top 5 worst days of my life. All those concerns and hurts came crashing down at once and it absolutely devastated her - instantaneously. Thank God she is strong and is coping, in her way, but I have failed to protect someone I love from a pain caused by the actions/needs of another person I love who feels pain because of the same actions that I didn't bring into the house. Can somewhere tell me where the good is in this? I may be missing it, but so far 3 people have/are deeply hurt, and for what? IMO, it is very, very self-centered to expect that everything I want/need should be equally embraced by everyone around me. If I decide I need to go away for a year to search my soul and leave my husband, children, family & career on their own - sorry about ya - I would not be the dependable, responsible person I strive to be. I have a responsibility to the people that love me to cherish that love and keep it safe. Buddha would say to reach enlightenment that is exactly what I should do - go on a soul quest. As I said, I'm not there yet.

    These posts do a good job at explaining why it hurts. What it boils down to, when the wife finds out well into the relationship, is that we were dooped. We were sold on something and the fine print was hidden. Absolutely the CD person is still the same person - no question. But the emotional image of my husband that had attached itself to my heart went up in flames - all gone. Game over, reboot. I loved that game as it was, and I don't know the rules to this game and he is not very forthcoming with what it means. Here it is - play or don't. Of course I could've left and destroyed everything we'd built - not just financially, but dreams, plans, committment, family. That's a selfish choice, IMO, and I was not willing to make it without a fight.

    Carin, that is probably THE most beautifully written post I've ever seen. Your wife is a very smart lady - she chose you.

    So who does it hurt? Everyone that matters. The family & the CD. Should it? The clothes are no big deal. It's how the CD chooses to express his needs (most the time covertly) and the extent of those needs that determines how long the hurt lasts and how deep it goes.

    You say I have been conditioned by society to see CDing as perverted. I say you're wrong. My brother CD'd many times (probably more than I know about) - hell I even gave him lingerie and clothes. We laughed and joked about it and said what a God-awful ugly woman he was (6'4" and boobs always too big). But NEVER did I think he was perverse or sick and not one of the best people to have ever walked this earth.

    But he never stood up and promised to love, honor and respect me, and keep himself only unto me and take care of me and protect me. Because of CDing, one of the people I love most in this world, broke some of those promises knowingly and deliberately. That hurts alot.

  3. #28
    Mature Member sara_also's Avatar
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    Devil's Advocate (possibly)

    I always hesitate to get in on this type of thread, because each and everyone of us are different, and have a different relationship. I cannot disagree with most of what has been said. However, I do want to expand on the being hurt issue from the other side of the coin.
    Remember my thoughts only..

    I feel hurt (bad) when my SO has to go to the market by herself, because I am enfem and cannot be with her.

    I feel hurt when I cannot change the oil in the car when dressed as I please.

    I feel hurt not being able to do gardening or yard work in shorts and a tank top.

    I feel hurt when we cannot take our walk today because I am dressed, and the neighbors would not approve.

    (just some small examples)

    I only want to point out that being a CD has many, many sides, and in most cases affects the crossdresser as much as it affects anyone associated with them.
    This is just my

  4. #29
    My Heroes Wore Nylons Lovely Rita's Avatar
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    Maybe it is best to really listen to the SOs out there and get it straight from the horses mouth so to speak.

    Some time we don't fully understand hurt ourselves. Dialogue is always good.
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  5. #30
    Also (while agreeing with the previously mentioned) were fears I had about, is he still the man I fell in love with? Have I become the "other woman" in his life? Does he still find me attractive? What if I do the wrong thing and he wants to leave me.

    When my SO came out to me there were so many thoughts revolving around me. At the time I was very insecure about myself so I kept thinking that this was his way of getting rid of me. There was even a point that I was afraid that it wasn't even him any longer and once he tried to give me a hug while en femme and I just burst out crying saying "It's not you any more is it?" Well I was gravely wrong and we've gotten past that.
    Let the lover be disgraceful, crazy, absent-minded. Someone sober will worry about events going badly. Let the lover be.
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  6. #31
    Silver Member Kerry Owens's Avatar
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    I am going to speak out very loudly. Lawren told me he was a CrossDresser right on the outset of our relationship once he realized how serious it was becoming. I am totally thankful he is the trusting, honest person he is.
    Our marriage has strengthened because we do discuss together our feelings
    and share the fun of learning about each other.
    Lawren understands when I'm having a difficult time with ptsd, and is patient with me.
    I feel sorry for someone who is wrapped up only in thierself and leaves everyonelse off their lives, they will find lonliness.

  7. #32
    Administrator Tamara Croft's Avatar
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    It hurts when you've been together for 20 years and then you find out. It hurts because for 20 years your hubby has lied and hidden things from you. It hurts because the man you married never gave you the chance to walk away. It hurts because now you're pushed into their closet, often with no one else to talk to, no information, no nothing. You're just expected to embrace it. Well it's not that simple, especially when the man you married wants to dress like a woman and in some cases, transition.

    Alot of women then feel trapped, but can't do anything because they've been dependent on their hubby for the last 20 years, dependent on finances, the assets etc... And if the wife is in her 50's what can she do?

    It hurts more than you know, more than you could understand. Just because you think it's ok, for a lot of women this just isn't normal and they can never accept it.
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  8. #33
    Hugging the Kurves! RobertaFermina's Avatar
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    Feeling the Burn

    Quote Originally Posted by Salandra View Post
    ........[snip]....
    My deepest regret is having hurt her so much by shutting her out. The love of my life is farther away than ever before. It's a tough lesson to learn, especially when you know how much you've hurt someone you hold dear.
    I realize that crossdressing is not the only divider of couples.

    Alternately Denying and Hiding from, and then hiding my own emotional issues, confusion and fears from my SOs led to dissolution of two beautiful relationships in my life. The pain and sadness of my choices and their impact resonates as I read your post.

    Thanks Salandra.

    Roberta
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  9. #34
    Senior Member Robin Leigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KirstyChibiMoon View Post
    well thats life....
    its a large world out there and if im hurting people by being a full time crossdresser then oh well.
    they will get over it, eventually.
    <giggles>
    if not, im probally better off not knowing them anyway.

    life is too short to worry about what everyone else is thinking.
    In Kirsty's defense, it seems she didn't realize that this thread was about how CDing hurts SOs, and she was speaking about how her CDing affects the general public.

    Robin
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  10. #35
    Senior Member Emma England's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamara GG View Post
    It hurts when you've been together for 20 years and then you find out. It hurts because for 20 years your hubby has lied and hidden things from you. It hurts because the man you married never gave you the chance to walk away.
    This is the problem. The man does not want you to walk away.

  11. #36
    Platinum Member Sheila's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by battybattybats View Post
    So what I want to know is how it can hurt them and why it can hurt them. Where does the hurt come from?

    This is of course apart from any arguments about decpetion, lying or hiding that can occur in some relationships. So if those aspects are removed (or nor present to start with) where does the hurt come from?

    Sorry but the lying is the hurt........ you fall in love with someone and you do not expect them to lie to you, in any major, way and by hiding this major part of themselves they have lied...... maybe for all the reasons we hear about but lied they have and that hurts
    Quote Originally Posted by battybattybats View Post
    A bhuddist friend of mine suggested that it comes from the SO having an expectation or desire of their husbands perceived masculinity or 'normality' and that the thwarting of this desire is what produces pain, but that that is a pain that allows for growth of the persons awareness and therefore is a good and positive pain to inflict on someone.
    to that all I can say is it a twisted attempt at trying to justify hurting someone and remaing guilt free but that is just my humble opinion
    I allow myself to set healthy boundaries ..... to say no to what does not align with my values, to say yes to what does.
    Boundaries assist me to remain healthy, honest and living a life that is true to me

  12. #37
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    Being a CDer, it hurts me to think I could be hurting anybody else. My wife knows, and is supportive, but I could never tell my family. I often wish I never had the urge to dress. I think life would be a lot easier.

  13. #38
    Silver Member Iniquity Blonde GG's Avatar
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    A saying springs to mind : "you always hurt the ones you love "
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  14. #39
    Banned Read only battybattybats's Avatar
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    Hmm... a great deal to think about.
    I should explain that I asked the question for 3 reasons.
    1. To try and get a general understanding of things my girlfriend is unable to successfully communicate.
    2. To try and get an understanding of the moral and ethical arguments so that I can determine on a higher level the possible arguments about right and wrong.
    3. General intellectual curiosity and the desire to understand as many different viewpoints as possible.

    Now I wanted to leave the deception/hiding out of this because I understand that and I wanted to understand the rest of the problem. I myself was as upfront as I could be given a fair degree of my own ignorance at the time and within probably 6 months of the first date I had learned more about it and was honest about it all. Since then I've been walking a tightrope of horrors with threats of suicide and controlling behaviour.

    It seems most of the responses boil down to some simple (though clearly strong and powerful) concepts.

    Dashed expectations
    Being forced to confront unexpected diversity in place of normalcy
    Fear of the unknown
    Fear of judgement

    It seems to me that what the Dresser goes through when coming to terms with themselves and what the SO goes through are pretty similar except that the SO has the problem of having to accept another persons difference whereas the CD has to come to terms with their own internal conflict.

    So the moral/ethical problem....
    Lots of things cause hurt in life. When I made clear to a friend that I did not believe in god and wasn't going to convert for them they were understandably hurt, they did not want to imagine me burning in the fires of hell. The closer someone is to you the more hurt you can cause them but would it be more immoral of me to lie to them to protect their feelings?

    Much of the hurt still seems to come from social judgement etc The example of the mother with a gay son seems to be a good one. Those feelings seem quite natural but that doesn't make them good or right. Knowledge, understanding, tolerance and social justice seem to be the difference between easy accepting or not for parents of gay people (I've met a fair few from both sides including ones that disowned their kids). This adds an interesting new dimension to the moral dilemma of Cd's choosing to be out or in the closet.

    Clearly there is real profound pain involved. It is difficult for a CD to judge whether the hurt to their SO of being lied to if ever found out would be greater than the hurt of coming clean while if they successfully keep their secret forever they cause some hurt for themselves (from loss of freedom, acknowledgement of this side of themselves and the possibility of a deeper and more fullfilling relationship with their partner) but they prevent their SO and family (and themselves) from ever being hurt by it being out which would seem to be the noblest thing to do as it seems to minimise the amount of hurt anyone feels.
    The trouble with that view is that nobody is perfect, mistakes happen and so it is a risk, a gamble with the risk of catastrophicly worse consequences than being open from the start.

    In informing an SO but otherwise remaining closeted it introduces the SO to the sufferings of the closet, so they then also will suffer the fears of others finding out, fears of being judged by the ignmorance and intolerance of others. They will have a taste of the forces that motivated the CD to be in the closet in the first place. Many would spare their SO such torment and troubles and would rather take the risk for short-term security despite the long-term risk of failure and discovery. The Ignorance-is-bliss view.
    There is another side to informing the SO though, the option of choice argument. By informing their SO the CD gives the SO the capacity to choose whether to stay or go, whether to tolerate support or even join in the crossdressing activities, and a share in the decision to bring the Cding out into the open or not and if so then how much and to whom.

    In becoming totally open and out (whether from the outset which is clearly best or from choosing to end deception) there is a risk of extending this hurt, this ontological shock, to every family member and friend. The broad extent of that is colossal to think about.
    Yet is it not true that in failing to do so a person is in fact protecting the forces that are a large part of this harm? Aren't they perpetuating the problem? Could they be in fact responsible by not standing up for others being in the same dilemma they are in?

    If so then the moral question is, is it ok to suffer and to allow loved ones to suffer because of the truth for the greater good of all (or the majority) or is it better to suffer and risk the suffering of (possibly a smaller amount of) loved ones because of a lie despite the detrimental aspects of the status quo?

    Before anyone makes any hasty judgements consider these similar thought-experiments. If a million people were going to die, but you didn't know any of them - they are just faceless numbers in a newspaper report from the other side of the world, and you could save their lives at a great personal cost (say by losing your job, house, possessions and savings) would, could you? What if you had to choose between the life of your SO and the life of a million unknown foreigners? What if you had to choose between the torture and maiming of your loved ones and the lives of a billion? What if the million people weren't going to die, just go through horrible stress and emotional upset, what would you be willing to go through or to have those you love go through to protect the unknown people. What if your loved ones were going to be in the million going to die but you had to choose between the million including your family and 100 strangers?

    For most people these aren't easy decisions even in a thought-experiment. I not so long ago read an article (on livescience.com I think) on how many people will be more upset at hearing that a small number of people have died than a large number which is interesting.

    It seems overly simplistic to condemn closeted CDs for hiding or saying that dishonesty is inherently selfish (though of course it can be selfish depending on the why of the choice). It seems also simplistic to condemn SOs for having trouble accepting or for people to risk their families with the truth.

    It seems the truth hurts when it is a truth that is unexpected, contrary to ones worldview or something someone does not want to be true.

    So it really does seem that the crossdressing itself doesn't cause any hurt at all in and of itself, but because it is currently a socially unacceptable taboo, because it inspires people to question there own security and sexuality, because it is often done in secret because of the way it is generally received/perceived the reaction to it, the perceptions of it and the way it is often expressed are the causal factors of harm. The harm though is still genuine and real.

    This certainly bears a lot more pondering.

  15. #40
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    your last paragraph sums it up pretty well...

    add to it personality, values, upbringing and you get a pretty complicated situation.



    Louise.

  16. #41
    Aspiring Member kassi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sara_also View Post
    I always hesitate to get in on this type of thread, because each and everyone of us are different, and have a different relationship. I cannot disagree with most of what has been said. However, I do want to expand on the being hurt issue from the other side of the coin.
    Remember my thoughts only..

    I feel hurt (bad) when my SO has to go to the market by herself, because I am enfem and cannot be with her.

    I feel hurt when I cannot change the oil in the car when dressed as I please.

    I feel hurt not being able to do gardening or yard work in shorts and a tank top.

    I feel hurt when we cannot take our walk today because I am dressed, and the neighbors would not approve.

    (just some small examples)

    I only want to point out that being a CD has many, many sides, and in most cases affects the crossdresser as much as it affects anyone associated with them.
    This is just my
    very valid point. i can think of many things to add to that list of how my husband probably feels, but i will add a few myself.

    i feel hurt when my husband can't wear nail polish for 24 hrs. straight because he has to go to the gas station.

    i feel hurt when my husband can't dress because somone who doesn't know is comming over.

    i feel hurt when he is so depressed because he won't ever be able to lead the full life that he wants because this world is not an accepting world.

    i feel hurt that when we finally do come out to our family and friends most of them won't understand and the people who told us they will always be there will now turn a shoulder and pretent like they don't know us.

    i feel hurt that my husband feels trapped in his own body.

    i could go on and on but i think this is enough.
    [SIZE=4]hanging in there[/SIZE]

  17. #42
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    how do I say thank you again....

    Quote Originally Posted by Carin View Post
    If you are in that extremely small minority such that .... you know AND understand your self completely,AND you declare that to you SO well before you get seriously involved and/or married, AND she accepts AND she likes AND enjoys that piece of you , then maybe there is no hurt directly due to crossdressing. But for the rest of us in long term relationships ...

    Relationships and marriage are about life dreams, some reasonable expectations, trust, comfort and security, a safe place where you do not have to be on the defensive, where you can relax from the outside world, and get to know you partner over the years. Of course long term relationship face challenges in its normal course, and strong relationships survive these through hard work and committment.

    The hurt happens when we introduce crossdressing after the foundations of the relationahip have been established. The hurt comes from one partner singlehandedly threathening ALL of those basic components in one blow. We can not even give a good reason as to why. The hurt is in taking that safe haven and threatening it. The hurt is in forcing a change in her expectations. The hurt is in injectinig fears that were not there before. Our culture contributes in a negative way, but the CDer is the catalist. Yes, that person that she had counted on being there for her, is now FORCING her out of her comfort zone. And these are not issues that she can leave in the office, to go home to her safe place.

    Someone said "Well thats life". Well, no that's not life as she new it, or expected it to be. Take it or leave it???? Girl that hurts her when she has put so much of her life into that relationship. Because it is saying that your "Game of Golf" is more important to you that your relationship. That is not how it is, but it is the message that is conveyed.

    I am so thankful to my dear SO for having the strength and courage to withstand these hurts and to eventually be able to see how it really is.


    Carin

    Carin
    and I love you!



    Louise.

  18. #43
    Aspiring Member kassi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emma England View Post
    This is the problem. The man does not want you to walk away.
    that is no justification for not telling you so. she should be given that choice. i hope you never have to experience being lied to like tamara was. cause then you would know the pain. wether he wanted her to leave or not he should have given her a chance to make that decision.
    [SIZE=4]hanging in there[/SIZE]

  19. #44
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    I really like this post....

    Quote Originally Posted by kassi lynn GG View Post
    very valid point. i can think of many things to add to that list of how my husband probably feels, but i will add a few myself.

    i feel hurt when my husband can't wear nail polish for 24 hrs. straight because he has to go to the gas station.

    i feel hurt when my husband can't dress because somone who doesn't know is comming over.

    i feel hurt when he is so depressed because he won't ever be able to lead the full life that he wants because this world is not an accepting world.

    i feel hurt that when we finally do come out to our family and friends most of them won't understand and the people who told us they will always be there will now turn a shoulder and pretent like they don't know us.

    i feel hurt that my husband feels trapped in his own body.

    i could go on and on but i think this is enough.
    puts another perspective on the issue that we sometimes forget.


    Louise.

  20. #45
    rAiNbOw_BaLlErInA KirstyChibiMoon's Avatar
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    Wink at least im free :)

    Quote Originally Posted by rainbownine GG View Post
    doesn't think like you.


    Louise.
    and i'm glad i dont think like you...
    i have fought in three wars... grenade, panama and desert storm...
    i feel like i have earn'd the right to be who i want to be...
    sorry if i offended anyone.. but that is life.

    if i worried about what everyone else thought, i'd never leave the house.
    <giggles>
    relax, u'll live longer
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  21. #46
    Banned Read only AERIN's Avatar
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    The real hurt is the deceit and the lies we present by hiding our true selves. In Our defense though the world with the truth be known still would not accept us. What are we to do? So we make a life choice and live and die with it. Serious long term relationships are destroyed by the ignorance of others and our own desire to be who we are. No esay solution! The price we pay is the price we pay, so be it written, our destiny.

  22. #47
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    of course you HAVE the right...

    Quote Originally Posted by KirstyChibiMoon View Post
    and i'm glad i dont think like you...
    i have fought in three wars... grenade, panama and desert storm...
    i feel like i have earn'd the right to be who i want to be...
    sorry if i offended anyone.. but that is life.

    if i worried about what everyone else thought, i'd never leave the house.
    <giggles>
    relax, u'll live longer
    (you don't even need to EARN it) to be who you are. I am just glad that my husband did take my very real feelings into account as she came to finding out who she was in the process. it would have been a shame given how much we love each other if she and I both had not made the huge effort it took to be where we are today, no?


    Louise.
    Last edited by Carin's Wife GG; 04-01-2007 at 05:10 PM. Reason: as usual typos.

  23. #48
    Banned Read only battybattybats's Avatar
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    I agree entirely, its a universal right that does not need to be earned and should never be taken away.

  24. #49
    Banned Read only AERIN's Avatar
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    I would hardly call Grenada, Panama and Desert Storm wars, more like bully invasions that failed. Many of us here I am sure are veterans as well and don't use it as a pulpit for one feelings. The again some us only exist to delude ourselves, don't we? There's that "N" word again.

  25. #50
    Senior Member Tree GG's Avatar
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    Two thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by battybattybats View Post
    ...ethical arguments so that I can determine on a higher level the possible arguments about right and wrong....

    ...So it really does seem that the crossdressing itself doesn't cause any hurt at all in and of itself, but because it is currently a socially unacceptable taboo, because it inspires people to question there own security and sexuality, because it is often done in secret because of the way it is generally received/perceived the reaction to it, the perceptions of it and the way it is often expressed are the causal factors of harm. The harm though is still genuine and real...
    I'd like to add two thoughts to your summary.

    #1) Right and wrong are not black-n-white. Quite frankly, the only moral high-ground that I can think of that would hold universally true is the Golden Rule. Treat others as you would like to be treated. This is hard, because when disagreements in perception of right & wrong arise, the tendancy is to "respond in kind" than to stay on the high ground.

    #2) I'd agree that putting on the clothes, with respect to a singular, lone CDer hurts no one. When others are asked or expected to become involved we're back to point #1. Also, the greater good is fuzzy here. There is such a wide range of TGness (practices, if you will) that the only CD's that would "speak out" for social change, are the TS/transitioning group. That seems to be the only group that has a unity of purpose. The bulk of the CD community is part-time and really don't want to bring CDing to the forefront of their daily existance for many & numerous reasons.

    I believe many of those reasons are noble and altruistic, but just as many are self-based. For an extreme example, how many CD's would stand up and say, "I CD to admire my appearance in the mirror, become sexually stimulated and satisfy that desire," or "I CD to go out and attract male attention for just the evening." Again, these may be extreme, exaggerated statements the probably only apply to the minority but how many CDers do these apply to? IMO, those concepts would endanger any united social change movement.

    Just my

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