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Thread: Rights in Relationships

  1. #1
    Born to Dress Valerie Nicole's Avatar
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    Rights in Relationships

    I have a question for everyone here...and I might take some heat for asking this...but keep in mind I am not trying to express an opinion, just get an answer. I would especially like to hear from the GGs, but responses from anybody and everybody are welcome.

    If a CDer (MtF in this example, but it really could be either) is dating a non CDing GG, and the GG does not know about the CDing...is the CDer really obligated to share this information with his girlfriend? I mean, he does it only in private, has told nobody, and its something he does for himself. Does his girlfriend have a right to know what he does? What if they get engaged? Does she have a right then? What if they get married? Does she have a right then?

    Suppose that, for some magical reason, it is absolutely impossible for the CDer to be discovered accidentally. This means that his girlfriend/fiance/wife can't become aware of his CDing unless he comes out to her. No doubt that it may be deceptive on the CDers part to tell her, but if she is completely unaware of the deception and it will remain that way forever, is the deception really damaging to the relationship?

    I know it's a little complicated and that I've asked a lot of questions in this post, so I'll just sum it up now. At what point and under what circumstances (if any) does an SO have a right to know that her partner is a CDer? Or, in other words, at what point and under what circumstances (if any) is a CDer required to come out to their partner?
    "Why are you wearing those stupid girls' clothes?"
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  2. #2
    T-something Marla S's Avatar
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    Simple answer.
    YES she has the right.
    It is mandatory that she knows.
    And it should be mandatory that she nows at least before marriage (I know that needs the CD to accept him/herself first. The tricky part of it, and not always possible, the more as some CDs seem to hope their desire would fade due to the relationship.)

    An SO has a free will too, and she has the right to make a free decision, which should be based on the truth.

    One of the most important things in a relationship is trustfulness.
    That is hard to get or maintain if there are secrets of considerable impact.
    Last edited by Marla S; 06-07-2007 at 03:32 PM.

  3. #3
    Hugging the Kurves! RobertaFermina's Avatar
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    When the relationship turns from 'dating' and 'fun' toward 'courtship' and 'marriage' or the like. THEN she has a right to know *NOW*.

    And the CD male has a right to know all your secrets too!

    Roberta
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  4. #4
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    Ill answer all the questions in 1 answer

    If two people come together in love, they become one together, so close, you dont even need words to know when something is wrong, you can see it in her, as you know there is something wrong with yourself. Any deception compromises this connection, i believe.

    chantelle

  5. #5
    Platinum Member Sheila's Avatar
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    As a GG who found out after being in the relationship for over 2 1/2yrs before I discovered/found out by accident discovered I mean ......... and still in the relationship 10 months later, I can truely say it hurt it hurt so bad that I feel this way on occasions ........ not often but enough to write this

    http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...ad.php?t=60229


    So I guess my answer would be as soon as you think this relationship is heading somewhere
    hope this helps
    I allow myself to set healthy boundaries ..... to say no to what does not align with my values, to say yes to what does.
    Boundaries assist me to remain healthy, honest and living a life that is true to me

  6. #6
    ADMINISTRATOR Sandra's Avatar
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    I would say the SO has a right to know as soon as possible but definalty before things get to serious.

    If the CDer wants their patrner to trust them then yes they should come out to them, because if they don't and the SO finds out later, it causes a lot of hurt on both sides.
    Sandra
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  7. #7
    Senior Member Tree GG's Avatar
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    Why do you want to hide it from her?

    When you can answer that question with "I don't", then you'll understand.

  8. #8
    Platinum Member Daintre's Avatar
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    One of the things you gain as you grow older is hindsight and this tool becomes very useful. When you are young, you don't see the consequences of your actions, intentional deceit and not being upfront will cause a rift in any relationship which is based on truth. You certainly shouldn't worry about telling the girlfriend until you are serious about the relationship, then you have to be up front and honest. This way, she has the option to accept you and your "quirks" or end the relationship.
    Super Mod

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  9. #9
    Member fionasboots's Avatar
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    The scenario you describe is somewhat implausible for a start but even if you could approach this supposed ideal I suspect that it would be hell rather than the heaven you seem to think it would be.

    For a start you would have an SO that is either completely and totally naive or who just doesn't care about you enough to notice details such as the shaved legs and immaculate nails

    Also you have effectively trapped yourself in the closet forever with no means of escape. This means you maintain CDing but can never grow further with it - sounds good now, but do you really want to be stuck forever?

    The ideal is not a scenario where you'll never be caught, it's where you have a partner that accepts, understands, supports and even encourages you with the CDing.

    Taking the deception route is pretty selfish, but objectively there may be good reasons. However taking this approach when you don't have to is frankly dumb; try and find an accepting partner instead, it'll be better for both of you in the long run!

    Oh, and in reality something always gives, either your SO finds out by accident or you crack and tell them - in both cases you're likely to have a huge mess on your hands!
    Fiona

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  10. #10
    Born to Dress Valerie Nicole's Avatar
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    I definitely should have mentioned this in my first post, but I was trying to remain as objective as possible. First of all, I do myself believe that it is best for the relationship to share this part of myself very early on. That is my policy and my standard operating procedure. That's what happened with my last (and so far only) girlfriend. In fact, she knew before we even started dating. I also agree that the scenario I described is not ideal, and it was never meant to be. It was supposed to be a situation in which the relationship could not be affected by the CDing unless the CDer wanted it to be.

    Hope that clears up the misunderstandings.

    Edit: I'm going to add an additional question, then. If a partner has the right to know that a CDer is a CDer, then does the CDer have the right to a partner who is going to accept them? I mean, would you consider it fair or unfair if a relationship were to be ended by the CDer on the grounds that their partner wasn't accepting enough?
    Last edited by Valerie Nicole; 06-07-2007 at 04:12 PM.
    "Why are you wearing those stupid girls' clothes?"
    "Why are you wearing those stupid mens' clothes?"
    --Adapted from Donnie Darko

  11. #11
    Member fionasboots's Avatar
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    You often don't get what you may consider to be things that you have a right to, that's just life.

    If the relationship ends because your partner can't accept your CDing - whether they or you end things - it's really not a case of being fair or unfair, it's just how things are.

    To quote (well paraphrase really): "Give me the strength to change the things I can and the grace to accept those that I can't".

    Also paraphrasing: Screaming "unfair" at the universe is unlikely to gain you much apart from a sore throat. It's best just to get on ans enjoy yourself and find other people that you enjoy being with who enjoy your company and, well just to lots of enjoying and stop worrying about rights and such
    Fiona

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  12. #12
    Gender whatever Megan72's Avatar
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    Valerie: to me a relationship is a choice that two people agree to enter into - together. I prefer to make my decisions based upon the most complete information possible, therefore, if one person hides a pertinent aspect of information then I am incapable of making an informed decision. (god that sounds like the boy talking there!!)

    What if your SO had cancer and might pass in a couple of years, do you think then you would have the right to know this information? I think I would like to know. It may not be the deciding factor in my choice but it would be nice to know regardless. So the answer for me is yes SO's have the right to know about not just CDing but all of the little quirks and idiosyncrasy's in our life. That way they know whether or not to get involved with the other.

  13. #13
    Born to Dress Valerie Nicole's Avatar
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    Part of the question is whether or not crossdressing, in and of itself, has any effect on the relationship. If I had a partner that didn't know I dress, so she never had to see it, and there was absolutely no way she could ever find out about it, would the crossdressing really have an effect on the relationship? I think that's at the heart of what I'm asking.
    Last edited by Valerie Nicole; 06-07-2007 at 05:05 PM.
    "Why are you wearing those stupid girls' clothes?"
    "Why are you wearing those stupid mens' clothes?"
    --Adapted from Donnie Darko

  14. #14
    Still wishing upon a star Andi's Avatar
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    I guess it depends on how you embrace the meaning of "Significant Other" (a person who is important to one's well-being). Either she is and therefore worth revealing everything there is about yourself or she isn't in which case you're just playing games.
    Hugs, Andi

  15. #15
    Out for a walk EricaCD's Avatar
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    Just for grins (and because it has been a while since I got good and flamed here), I'll dissent from the consensus in part.

    Starting point: I believe that a couple in a relationship has the right to know all information that would be material to their relationship, and that we should err on the side of TMI rather than too little. That said, I emphatically do NOT agree (and I will venture to opine that Helene feels the same way) that a couple is obligated to share every single detail of their existences.

    From that starting point, I think the question of whether you have to tell depends from case to case. I will hasten to say that for most CDs, the fact of our crossdressing probably is material and should be disclosed. However, to take an extreme straw man case:

    - very occasional cd
    - limited to periodic underdressing
    - never in public, no photos, no fem profile
    - strictly for the erotic thrill
    - perfectly comfortable with it
    - nothing in SO's background to suggest a visceral objection (e.g. religion, moral conservatism, etc.)
    - unambiguous about gender and sexual orientations

    Well, in that case I don't know that a harmless sexual kink is something that automatically must be disclosed.

    The reason I am a little cautious about giving this answer is that we all know that crossdressing desires can evolve over time. God knows mine did. So I would probably recommend that any CD give serious thought to the possibility of such an evolution, and whether you might be in a position to disclose this part of yourself at a time when your SO does NOT have the ability to make an informed decision as to your relationship.

    And for those who think that the risk of evolving preferences means that even an occasional cd should always tell, well... that's not an unreasonable position either. I'm just a little leery of this unchecked assertion that "yes your SO automatically has an absolute right to know everything about you before making any sort of emotional commitment to a relationship."

    Fire away.
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  16. #16
    Protector-from-Spiders Cai's Avatar
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    This question brings up some of the same moral/ethical questions that a relationship with a post-op TS does. If a post-op is totally passable, even in bed, then this approaches the scenario you talked about with there being very little (or no) chance of the SO finding out.

    So does the SO have a right to know about the natal sex of their partner? I think yes, for the same reasons that the SO should know about the closet CDing. First, it's a rather large deception, and that's never good for relationships. Second, knowing that your SO accepts every part of you makes you so much closer.

    And to answer the second question: I do think CDers and TS's have the right to an SO that accepts them. But as said before, we don't always get things that should be our right. If your SO doesn't accept you for who you are, that's not a healthy relationship. But in the case of someone who's been married/together for a long time, and they tell their SO, who doesn't want anything to do with it - I wouldn't see that alone as being enough to end the relationship.
    Remember always that you have not only the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one. - Eleanor Roosevelt

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  17. #17
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    Erica Has Stated My Case

    Erica has stated my case better than I can. I think that there are very few people in this world who have told their SO or spouse every thing about themselves. If such people exist, they should try walking on water.

    Ashley

  18. #18
    Gender whatever Megan72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashley1 View Post
    Erica has stated my case better than I can. I think that there are very few people in this world who have told their SO or spouse every thing about themselves. If such people exist, they should try walking on water.

    Ashley
    No doubt that is the reality. But it does not negate the ethical questions raised in this thread.

  19. #19
    Platinum Member Sheila's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valerie Nicole View Post
    Part of the question is whether or not crossdressing, in and of itself, has any effect on the relationship. If I had a partner that didn't know I dress, so she never had to see it, and there was absolutely no way she could ever find out about it, would the crossdressing really have an effect on the relationship? I think that's at the heart of what I'm asking.
    If you are hiding [SIZE="3"]an important[/SIZE] part of you you are, then yes I think that it would eventually have an effect on your relationship ........ just my 0.02
    I allow myself to set healthy boundaries ..... to say no to what does not align with my values, to say yes to what does.
    Boundaries assist me to remain healthy, honest and living a life that is true to me

  20. #20
    Unofficial CD Mom Holly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valerie Nicole View Post
    Part of the question is whether or not crossdressing, in and of itself, has any effect on the relationship. If I had a partner that didn't know I dress, so she never had to see it, and there was absolutely no way she could ever find out about it, would the crossdressing really have an effect on the relationship? I think that's at the heart of what I'm asking.
    Yes, it will have an effect. Whether the SO knows or should know is inmaterial... the CDer will know that a deception is being made and THAT WILL AFFECT THEM. The CD will act and react differently. The CD would always have to be on guard and never be able to truly be them self. That's way too high a price to pay.
    Fulltime girl on the inside.
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    [SIZE=4]Holly[/SIZE]

  21. #21
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    Just put the shoe on the other foot.

    At what point would YOU want to know if your wife/SO was trying to pretend she was a man in private. If you can say never, and mean it, then you have your answer.

    Stephie

  22. #22
    Member DawnL's Avatar
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    Valerie Nicole,
    I can't speak for anyone else but it seems to me that crossdressing is a part of who I am and why I feel the way I do about other things in life. When it came back into my life I had to tell my wife. I had no idea what her reaction would be but I had to tell her. If she was not supportive then we would have to work on that. How can she know who I am if she doesn't know this major part of me?
    [SIZE="4"][/SIZE][SIZE="4"][/SIZE]Love Dawn

    I went to find the "softer side of Sears" and I can't find my way back

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valerie Nicole View Post
    At what point and under what circumstances (if any) does an SO have a right to know that her partner is a CDer? Or, in other words, at what point and under what circumstances (if any) is a CDer required to come out to their partner?
    When its serious enough to use the word partner. A date here or there is one thing, but everyone has the right to know who they are in a serious relationship with.

  24. #24
    Gold Member Alice B's Avatar
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    If the relationship is to be serious and lead to a long range partnership and possible marriage, you MUST TELL HER. Her acceptance is the key to the relationship lasting. For her to find out after the fact leads to mis-trust and failure of the relationship. The chances are that she already knows or already suspects anyway. Be bold. truthful, honest, etc. You have seen this this comment many times if you have been paying attention to this forumn.

  25. #25
    Member fionasboots's Avatar
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    I still think that rights and ethics and morals in this context are just an excuse to hide away from the reality of life.

    Taking the example that hi24home suggested; should a post-op TS tell an SO about their original gender, you can argue all sorts of ways from a moral/ethical perspective. However, once you take real life into account all these arguments are irrelevant.

    For example, how would friends and relatives of a post-OP TS react to an SO that didn't know. Would some want to tell? Would some act oddly if the whole TS topic ever came up? Would parents/relatives feel and act awkwardly around a partner they may consider to be the wrong gender for their child? Or maybe they would just be over-protective.

    Taking CDing, as Erica suggests it is the kind of thing that evolves over time and what was once easy to contain gets a little unwieldy when you have several suitcases crammed with clothes and your SO notices lipstick marks on glasses you were drinking out of.

    From my experience, sooner or later an SO will either find out or you will actually want to tell, either because you feel it's right or you simply want the person you care about to know.

    So I'd say again, rights/wrongs/morals/ethics are essentially irrelevant, from a practical and even selfish point of view it's likely to be best to tell up-front so you get a partner that's best for you.
    Fiona

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