Rights in Relationships

[battybattybats]

Actually I think that rights, ethics and morals are absolutely applicable to every case. That's what they exist for

Firstly I believe everyone has a right to privacy, even in relationships. There are reasons why having privacy is normally in lists of what makes up a healthy relationship and not having privacy is in the lists of unhealthy or abusive relationships.

That said there are simple factors involved.
Can the CD be sure they will never be found out? No, no-one can be sure, only confidant at best.

Can the CD be sure that they will never want SO participation or to be out or full time? No. They can only be certain of the present and guess at the future.

Is it right for the CD to make choices 'in the best interest of' the SO instead of informing them and letting them make up there own minds. Nope.

Therefore for the best interests of all concerned the most moral and ethical choice is to inform the SO asap... in most circumstances. There are times when that is not always the case and if a CD finds themselves dressing only years after already marrying, if the SO has already expressed transphobic opinions that are unlikely to shift and I'm sure a host of other reasons then it can be right to keep it private.

[Kerry Owens]

It's hard to say, but if you reach the point you're serious...and you realize she just might be getting serious too, it's time to start talking. Lots and lots of talking, explaining and understanding is needed. Because you have to take the discussions at her pace.
Break the news at a relaxed time, and if you want to break it gradually that's good too. But, be honest. She's going to have questions and fears too, and once the lack of knowledge has been filled in most of the time fear isn't the problem. Most women are not handicapped by attitudes from the past, those who cannot deal with the truth, well... there are other ladies.
Accepting GG's are not a myth, neither are they opinionless. We have understanding, wonderful crossdressers who took the time, and patience to explain, and to listen to our feelings in turn. It really does work out that simply.

[Dasein9]

I find it difficult to imagine wanting to be with someone with whom I can't share an important part of who I am. If I can't tell this person how I like to dress, how could I ever let them close enough to... well, you know...?

As for the later-asked question, Yes, a CD absolutely, positively has the right to a partner who is accepting, and non-acceptance of CD-ing is certainly a reason to end a relationship.

[Lawren]

Since that kind of magic does not exist that is a moot point.

As for the rest of it, it depends on where you draw the line between "absolute truth" and "little white lies".

IMHO, if you are seriously dating then you are already in a relationship and that requires honesty. If you intend to continue dating, then she has every right to know. If you do not intend to continue dating, then you are just using her and that is worse than not coming out to her.

Come on, Guys. What is so scary about being honest. Especially with the one you love the most.

[marie354]

Any of the relationships that I've had in the past where I tried to keep it a secret, never worked out well.

Now the ones where I was honest about my inner self, worked much better.

It's probably harder on you by keeping it hidden in the long run.

[Tree GG]

... I emphatically do NOT agree (and I will venture to opine that Helene feels the same way) that a couple is obligated to share every single detail of their existences...

...Well, in that case I don't know that a harmless sexual kink is something that automatically must be disclosed...

... "yes your SO automatically has an absolute right to know everything about you before making any sort of emotional commitment to a relationship."

Erica

BANG! :winking: In above order:

I would agree - we don't need to know every single detail about each other. There are things I've done (way in past when we were young) that he doesn't know about. He doesn't know because it's behavior I'm not proud of and have not, will not even at gun point, repeat again. There are things he's done that he hasn't disclosed fully to me for same reasons. Forgive, forget and move on. Since most CDers intend to repeat this behavior, it is not a "mistake" and to hide it insinuates shame, wrongfulness and fear. None of those are healthy - especially in an intimate relationship. How can you give/receive unconditional love if you're feeling at risk of being judged and found unworthy by your partner? I don't think it can be done for the long term.

WRONG - there are no harmless, sexual kinks in a monogamous relationship. If we'd agreed to an "open" deal, that's one thing. The "woman in the mirror" is a very real betrayal to a wife. Right or wrong - it's still an issue. Of course, he didn't understand that objection at all - and in fairness I couldn't really logically justify that position. I just know how it felt. Those with more open, free-thinking sex lives, please disregard my comments. :blushing:

If you want to be loved for who you are, all your facets, and you know those facets exist, I believe you do have the obligation to be as honest as you can be and your partner (GG SO or otherwise) has the right to know what those facets are. "Everything" is unrealistic and too absolute, but TGness is not just a minor quirk. It's as least as important as knowing you like to sleep with the window open.

I will now go away

[ErikaLeigh]

Well here is a little different twist. My wife of 14 years just recently found out. She told me that she didnt think she could have handled it if I had told her years ago. Also like a lot of CDs, I thought the urges would go away when I got married, WRONG!!! but they didnt come back for several years. In hindsight if I had known then what I know now, I would have done things differently and told her upfront. My wife is somewhat accepting, tollerant at best, and is OK with me shaving my legs, wearing panties and toenail polish, but thats her boundry. She doesnt want to see or hear about anything more. Our relationship has grown closer now that there are no secrets.

Bottom line is if you are in a relationship, it will be a much better and closer if you disclose yourself before it gets too serious.

Also, listen to the ladies on this site, they know what they are talking about from experience and can guide you through things. I have gained more info and help in the last year and a half from this site than in the previous 38 years of my life.

[Denielleinheels]

to each their own. If you are in a relationship and it could be the one, she/he needs to know... otherwise it is lying through omission. How can you have a seriouse relationship if you are only bringing half of you to the table?

[battybattybats]

WRONG - there are no harmless, sexual kinks in a monogamous relationship. If we'd agreed to an "open" deal, that's one thing. The "woman in the mirror" is a very real betrayal to a wife. Right or wrong - it's still an issue. Of course, he didn't understand that objection at all - and in fairness I couldn't really logically justify that position. I just know how it felt. Those with more open, free-thinking sex lives, please disregard my comments. :blushing:

Hmm... I've seen this sort of response before with a variety of things... it seems connected to a very strict concept of what constitutes monogamy that is very difficult for most human beings to fit into but that is assumed to exist universally or be not only the ideal but the norm. When I have seen those views held by others it has often been attached to views that being attracted even unconciously to anyone else constitutes direct overt cheating, that fantasizing and such is also cheating, that are very critical of other women especially those who are promiscuous, very competitive interactions with other women and frequently attaching blame on women in cheating situations (rather than equal responsibility of both in an affair).

Now I'm not saying that this is the case with you, but I wonder if common views/expectations on an extreme and often unrealistic idealised form of monogamy and an extremely competitive environment among many women for the attention of men might be a big part of many womens issues with a variety of things including crossdressing.

[KarenMichelleLuv]

Valerie,

I’ve read and returned to this post several times since you placed it. The title of your post “Rights in Relationships” brings to the surface a number of interrelated issues in the areas of morals, ethics, honesty, self, perception, security to name a few. The context you have placed these questions is clearly focused in the framework of the existing significant other or potential significant other relationships.

After reading a number of the replies to this set of questions or scenarios, I’m going to throw in my 2 cents. And to be clear where KarenMichelle is coming from, you should all know that I am a closeted/stealth cross dresser who has enjoyed being out in public from time to time. I'm also in a 14 year relationship and marriage with a wonderful woman. Please forgive the length of this post. It's just the way I organize my thoughts.

Rights in Relationships

To begin with, the term “Rights” is an incredibly loaded word. It invokes thoughts of “The Bill of Rights”, “Entitlements”, “Guarantees”, “Security”, “Magna Carta”, “legal”, “marital”, I could go on and on. The fact of the matter is that the logistics of a relationship are primarily defined by the individuals within it. The participant’s life experiences leading up to the entering into mature significant relationship are their own. These experiences create your moral and ethical framework which colors the way you view and interact with others. Society contributes to this by holding up to the population in general the ideals that are to be emulated. Many times these ideals are codified into relationship law. So why the remedial lesson regarding the concept of individual “relationship rights”? Because the real issue as I see is “Expectations in a Relationship” or I think a better phrase would be “Expectations of a Relationship”.

The whole attraction, friendship, falling in love, promise of commitment, being in love, loving the relationship phases of relationships is experienced based on your upbringing and your own past experiences. How you’ve grown from both negative and positive experiences sets you up for your next relationship. Those darn expectations will drive you forward in search of a life partner. The important thing is to be able to articulate your expectations to those who are expected to “satisfy” some aspect of them.

There is no absolute “right” by any individual to have access to any aspects of the experiences, thoughts, dreams and nightmares that make up the partner standing in front of you. Only through shared communication and agreement do you obtain this knowledge. Depending on each individuals moral beliefs and/or ethical boundaries they will own a scale of self image, openness, privacy and honesty. You can only be true to yourself based on your scale. You can’t be true to someone else’s scale unless it is within your boundaries and beliefs. Whether they know it or not the person with the more encompassing scale tends to be the more tolerant and forgiving partner in the relationship.

It’s easy to utter the phrase “Honesty is the Best Policy” but we all know and can cite examples where we would not expect someone we care about to follow this rule.

If a CDer (MtF in this example, but it really could be either) is dating a non CDing GG, and the GG does not know about the CDing...is the CDer really obligated to share this information with his girlfriend? I mean, he does it only in private, has told nobody, and its something he does for himself. Does his girlfriend have a right to know what he does? What if they get engaged? Does she have a right then? What if they get married? Does she have a right then?

In response to the question noted above, the answer is an absolute no! I believe that this "right" does not exist but I also believe that it may be beneficial that you share this information in some way shape or form. If the couple have talked about the important things in and to their relationship and these would include views and opinions about life, love, dreams, spirituality, honesty, ethics, sexuality, fantasies, expectations in a relationship, etc., then the groundwork for opening up to each other has been laid. If the couple is not at the point where these conversational topics have been discussed, they shouldn’t be thinking about marriage. Any couple who is at the conversational levels noted above is probably ready for the volunteering of a little fact that one of the partner’s “enjoys CDing”.

A little more on the “expectations in a relationship” conversation. If you, the CDer , don’t lay the groundwork for your fantasys, needs or image issues, then you are short changing yourself. You might admit that you are androgynous of mind and really enjoy both male and female points of view, fashions, whatever. This is not far off the truth that you also enjoy CDing and that this contributes to who you are.

By the way, this whole response is NOT oriented to those individuals who are in the “I want to where women’s cloths 24/7” or the “I’m really thinking that I want to transition” crowds. For those in either of these mindsets, I would advise that openness is the best policy. Why?, because, both of these desires will affect you significantly and your existence in your world and therefore your potential SO’s world also.

Suppose that, for some magical reason, it is absolutely impossible for the CDer to be discovered accidentally. This means that his girlfriend/fiancé/wife can't become aware of his CDing unless he comes out to her. No doubt that it may be deceptive on the CDers part to tell her, but if she is completely unaware of the deception and it will remain that way forever, is the deception really damaging to the relationship?

In response to the question noted above, the answer is again absolute no! To site my own example, I know that there are events and experiences from my wife’s past that I will never know about. I don’t know the details of all her past relationships and I have no need to know. I love the women who is presenting herself to me and our marriage here and now. She has even told me that there are issues/experiences from her past that she is not proud of, and I accept that. If presented with one of these issues, I’m not likely to feel betrayed because I have been forewarned.

In respect to her, I present the male looking, slightly androgynous, humorous guy she met, fell in loved with and married. This person also includes most of the personality and mental aspects of KarenMichelle, except the actual cross dressing. KarenMichelle is alive within my mind and personality always and she gets to exist in the real world from time to time, and she likes it this way. My wife knows that I have cross dressed in the past, and it was not an issue when it came up. It is entirely possible that she knows that I still cross dress but this has not become an issue in our marriage or relationship. KarenMichelle is always a part of me and she comes out frequently in my total personality. She never takes time that has been committed to my marriage, to my children, to my other family and friends or to my business. She gets to come alive fully only during some of my private time and this is enough for her. BTW - I will admit that KarenMichelle has completed some of my client projects from time to time, but this is because I get to work alone for many hours at a time.

My response to those the live in the “Must always be honest or the relationship is a lie” fog is, “please grow up and smell the roses”. Relationships need and require secrets. Managed well, these become or contribute to your mystique! It is my firm belief that both males and females possess mystique.

I know it's a little complicated and that I've asked a lot of questions in this post, so I'll just sum it up now. At what point and under what circumstances (if any) does an SO have a right to know that her partner is a CDer? Or, in other words, at what point and under what circumstances (if any) is a CDer required to come out to their partner?

Basically, if a CDer is at the point where they are abandoning time that could otherwise be spent with their SO and/or their family in order to “be”, then you’re heading down a slippery slope. You need to rethink your CDing and your relationships and which is most important to you.

If KarenMichelle got into trouble and needed to be rescued, bailed out, or whatever I would call and/or tell my wife, even if those circumstances would finish “outing” me.

OK, That's it from my POV. Be Gentle...

[battybattybats]

I've been considering the rights/boundaries issue a lot lately. Here is a partial list I've been thinking of.... based on the basic premise of equality...
This is also based on the assumption that each person concerned is a sane adult human with a normal level of intelligence (so that they are capable of giving informed consent).

1. Each person has total control and the last say over their own bodies and possessions.
2. Each person has the right to make requests on the other of any kind whatsoever but no right to assume that they could/should receive consent on that.
3. Each person may change their minds or withdraw consent for something involving their person or possessions at any time Including any and all compromises reached or restrictions previously agreed to.
4. Each person may choose to leave the relationship at any time for any reason. If either feels incapable of doing so because of any reason, that is a serious problem and requires immediate attention as it is unfair to both parties.
5. Neither person should seek to prevent the free exercise of any of these rights in any way for any reason beyond a simple request with no strings attached or the offer of a fair bargain neither of which should be assumed to be accepted.
6. Compromises or bargains do not exist in a way to ‘allow’ the fair use of these rights. The use of the right is the given and any compromise of that right is the voluntary exception. No compromise should be assumed to exist or is to be expected.
7. Accepting the rights and free use of those rights is the responsibility of both parties regardless of whether the fair use of that right is something that goes against the wishes, agenda, values, judgement or intent of the other after fair and reasonable requests have been made. If that is too difficult then proffessional help must be obtained in coping with that. Of course right 4. is always in effect as an alternative.
8. Coersion is unacceptable and inadvertent coersion must be prevented or undone if and when it occurs. Manipulative behaviour or allowing things like the danger of suicide to continue in such a way as it is or might be perceived to be an influence on the free and fair use of these rights in unacceptable.

I realise that for many people these rights would be very challenging, however I cannot see how they cannot exist based on simple notions of equality, moderate or greater free will etc. (For example were right 1. not to be true I shudder at the horrors that could be justified!)...

[Sheri 4242]

An SO has a free will too, and she has the right to make a free decision, which should be based on the truth. One of the most important things in a relationship is trustfulness. That is hard to get or maintain if there are secrets of considerable impact.

If you are just starting to date, then no. The early stages of dating are where two people are starting to see if their personalities jive. BUT, if that stage of dating starts to progress to something more, then, at some point you are obligated (IMHO) to tell. Marla S. was very right, in re an SO having free will. If we want the foundation of all that comes as a relationship grows to be solid, we shouldn't be making decisions for the other person -- decisions that are their's and their's alone to answer and/or make.

Actually, Valerie Nicole, the answer is buried within you summation:

I know it's a little complicated and that I've asked a lot of questions in this post, so I'll just sum it up now. At what point and under what circumstances (if any) does an SO have a right to know that her partner is a CDer? Or, in other words, at what point and under what circumstances (if any) is a CDer required to come out to their partner?

You see, within what you've asked lies a fundamental component of a vibrant and healthy marriage -- and that is "intimacy." I am NOT talking about "sex," b/c "intimacy" is much more than sexual relations. Intimacy is that quality of closeness that comes from deep within. You cannot have true intimacy without truth and trust -- and you cannot have truth and trust if a part of what you are is being withheld. Deceit and/or deception are the antithesis of intimacy.

[battybattybats]

Basically, if a CDer is at the point where they are abandoning time that could otherwise be spent with their SO and/or their family in order to “be”, then you’re heading down a slippery slope. You need to rethink your CDing and your relationships and which is most important to you.

I don't see an either choice as remotely reasonable. Clearly both are important. The issue then is 'what proportion of investment in each will provide the best balance to maximise your endeavors with both'.

If the CD is spending all the time with the family and none on the CDing they need then they could be heading down just as slippery a slope.. one filled with frustration, resentment and the power to destroy the relationship as well.

[KarenMichelleLuv]

Batty...

I don't see an either choice as remotely reasonable. Clearly both are important. The issue then is 'what proportion of investment in each will provide the best balance to maximise your endeavors with both'.

If the CD is spending all the time with the family and none on the CDing they need then they could be heading down just as slippery a slope.. one filled with frustration, resentment and the power to destroy the relationship as well.

I see your point on this. I agree that there is a balance needed and that the "'what proportion of investment in each" decision will make for a happier human overall.