On passing.

[clinkerfiasco]

I just finished reading Feinberg's Transgender Warriors and there was a paragraph or two about passing and how we feel the need to pass because of fear of harassment essentially.

I think for me it's part of it but it's far from the main reason.

For me, the ability to pass means I'm successfully presenting as male. I try to pass so I will not be seen or read as female. And I try to push it so that I will not be seen as gender neutral as I want to be read as male because really, I am male. Despite what's in my boxers currently.

[Kieron Andrew]

For those in the UK
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Transgender-.../dp/0807079413

For those in US
http://www.amazon.com/Transgender-Wa.../dp/0807079413

Havent found a european book seller yet....but heres Leslie Feinberg official site
http://www.transgenderwarrior.org/

[brylram]

I think it's another example of the difference between the more crossdresser end of things, and the full-out transsexual end. For someone who dressed for reasons other than a full feeling of being trapped in the wrong body, I can see how they may have the desire to pass mainly out of fear (though it seems equally as logical to assume it would be to enhance the experience). Whereas transsexuals have a desire to pass so they can be recognized as who they really are. But those are just the furthest ends of the spectrum... there are plenty of people who fall in between, and many who don't want to pass at all.

Personally, I definately want to pass in order to have my inner identity recognized.

[clinkerfiasco]

I think it's another example of the difference between the more crossdresser end of things, and the full-out transsexual end. For someone who dressed for reasons other than a full feeling of being trapped in the wrong body, I can see how they may have the desire to pass mainly out of fear (though it seems equally as logical to assume it would be to enhance the experience). Whereas transsexuals have a desire to pass so they can be recognized as who they really are. But those are just the furthest ends of the spectrum... there are plenty of people who fall in between, and many who don't want to pass at all.

Personally, I definately want to pass in order to have my inner identity recognized.

Well said. And yes, I understand that there many different people on different points on the spectrum. In the end, it's an all personal choice.

[Kieron Andrew]

Personally, I definately want to pass in order to have my inner identity recognized.

Yup thats the way i see it

[CaptLex]

For me, the ability to pass means I'm successfully presenting as male. I try to pass so I will not be seen or read as female. And I try to push it so that I will not be seen as gender neutral as I want to be read as male because really, I am male. Despite what's in my boxers currently.

Same here . . . I want to pass 'cause I don't want to be seen (and treated) as female - not because I fear discrimination and harrassment . . . though now you've got me thinking that maybe I should. I guess I take it for granted that living in a big city there will be less of that stuff, but in other places . . . well, just look at what happened to poor Brandon Teena.

[ZenFrost]

Ditto. I want to pass because I want people to see what I really am, not what my body is.

[DanielMacBride]

Amen to that

Daniel

[privateperks]

Just as an aside about the book - I really enjoyed it and it was interesting. *But* I have to put my two cents in as a historian in the training and say that while her take on Joan of Arc was interesting, it was not based on factual material. Joan of Arc did not die for her right to wear male clothing - that she wore male clothing was accepted by most of her contemporaries, and it's not that she advocated any other women (and yes, Joan of Arc by all accounts considered herself very much a woman) wearing man's clothing. It was seen as a necessity not only by herself but by her fellow soldiers to protect herself from sexual attacks - it wasn't a statement of any kind and was only brought up at her trial by her detractors as a sort of 'and by the way...'

I really do enjoy a lot of these kinds of books looking to put a different take on history or reveal pockets of acceptance that no one knew were there - but at the same time, historians and people writing about history in general have an academic and moral duty not to rewrite things to suit ourselves. It's the same with the transgendered stuff in Native tribes that gets talked about alot - it's really not what most people think, not at all.

[clinkerfiasco]

I really do enjoy a lot of these kinds of books looking to put a different take on history or reveal pockets of acceptance that no one knew were there - but at the same time, historians and people writing about history in general have an academic and moral duty not to rewrite things to suit ourselves. It's the same with the transgendered stuff in Native tribes that gets talked about alot - it's really not what most people think, not at all.

*nods* Thank you very much for the insight.

Despite not looking it, I'm Native and I want to gag whenever someone non-Native calls themselves two-spirited.

[privateperks]

What tribe you from Clinkerfiasco? I'm Cherokee - and yeah, I know what you're probably thinking, I know all the jokes too and I'm not Cherokee in the my great great great grandpappy was a Cherokee princess kinda way (which given the subject of this msg board puts a whole new spin on that one.)

I know what you mean about the "two spirit" thing, urk. I keep meeting people over here who were Indian in a past life too.

[clinkerfiasco]

Mohawk, but my status card says Inuit. Go figure.

[boi_0h]

I think it's another example of the difference between the more crossdresser end of things, and the full-out transsexual end. For someone who dressed for reasons other than a full feeling of being trapped in the wrong body, I can see how they may have the desire to pass mainly out of fear (though it seems equally as logical to assume it would be to enhance the experience). Whereas transsexuals have a desire to pass so they can be recognized as who they really are. But those are just the furthest ends of the spectrum... there are plenty of people who fall in between, and many who don't want to pass at all.

Personally, I definately want to pass in order to have my inner identity recognized.

couldn't have said it better myself, so i won't.

[bi_weird]

Hrm, I hadn't really thought about this before. While I'd like to be able to pass as male (or 'not female') sometimes, I don't mind very much not passing. I'd really like to look more gender-neutral, though, because I'd like to be treated that way. So I guess passing for me is about being treated like who I see myself as.

[DanielMacBride]

Just as an aside about the book - I really enjoyed it and it was interesting. *But* I have to put my two cents in as a historian in the training and say that while her take on Joan of Arc was interesting, it was not based on factual material. Joan of Arc did not die for her right to wear male clothing - that she wore male clothing was accepted by most of her contemporaries, and it's not that she advocated any other women (and yes, Joan of Arc by all accounts considered herself very much a woman) wearing man's clothing. It was seen as a necessity not only by herself but by her fellow soldiers to protect herself from sexual attacks - it wasn't a statement of any kind and was only brought up at her trial by her detractors as a sort of 'and by the way...'

I really do enjoy a lot of these kinds of books looking to put a different take on history or reveal pockets of acceptance that no one knew were there - but at the same time, historians and people writing about history in general have an academic and moral duty not to rewrite things to suit ourselves. It's the same with the transgendered stuff in Native tribes that gets talked about alot - it's really not what most people think, not at all.

Which book is that? I don't think I've read that one (but by the sound of it I didn't miss much LOL )
What I admire the most about Joan of Arc is her courage of conviction - that was definiltely one girl who had balls The fact that she had to wear men's attire to do it really has nothing to do with it - as you pointed out, it was a matter of safety (and many women have done it throughout history).

As for history being rewritten to suit the author - it has (sadly) been done since people started recording stuff - look at how the Romans portrayed the Celts for example (yeah, that's MY personal beef lol cuz I'm a Celt). Other examples I can think of is how the massacre of Native American peoples has been portrayed and closer to my home, the Aboriginal peoples (and for that matter I guess pretty much any indigenous race who were invaded by the English - and English people PLEASE don't shoot me LOL, it's fact and I also have English blood, heck, I'm a Colonial boy )

Wow, we have wandered a ways off-topic....

*we now return you to your regular programming*....

Daniel

[privateperks]

Mohawk, but my status card says Inuit. Go figure.

Eh, happens. I gotta friend whose Cheyenne but enrolled Choctaw. Haskell baby.