It's just clothes!

[Jamie001]

Hi TreeGG,

I do believe that equating partial public nudity with CDing is not an apples-to-apples comparison because public nudity is illegal according to most local laws. On the other hand, CDing does not harm anyone unless the person is "indecent" and displaying parts of the anatomy that are illegal to display in public. Women incorporate masculine items into their wardrobes on a daily basis (neckties, large men's watches (my wife borrows one of my large watches), men's shoes, baseball caps, etc) and they are not CDing. Do you believe that it is ok for your SO to reciprocate and incorporate items from fem fashion into his appearance, or is it full-on crossdressing that is a problem if he adopts a female presentation, mannerisms, and a female personna?

Jamie

Batty,

We're going to have to agree to disagree. Yes, I believe he and he alone is responsible for how he expresses his CDness. He didn't ask to be CD, he didn't ask to be born at all, but there it is. How he expresses it is his choice. My choice is whether to accompany him on that expressive journey.

I take exception to you insinuating that my "problem" with CDing is a socially based construction and my husband should be free to do whatever he wants to make himself happy and the rest of the world should go along la-dee-da with him just because he wants it. In a perfect world, maybe. In the real world, not likely.

I am a closet naturist (I like to run topless in the woods, OK?) By your reasoning I should be allowed that freedom in the supermarket, at a school function or in my profession. But I'm NOT an exhibitionist or nudist. When it's super hot, and I'm alone with nature, I like the freedom and feeling of nearly total nudity. I don't have to do it in front of everyone or anyone to express myself and enjoy the feeling. Expressing it for myself when appropriate and comfortable is enough.

Also, I do not require that my husband follow me around spouting how wonderful it is that I am topless. Quite frankly, he's afraid of it - feels it may lessen the importance of nudity for intimate purposes so doesn't approve. (Now who's the prude? ) Do I stop? Do I scold him and scorn him for not feeling what I feel? Do I label him as unsupporting or unaccepting for not jumping in and playing along as well? NO. This is my thing - and expecting him to validate my actions for me is absurd. Same with his CDing. However, out of courtesy for his feeling, I do tone it down and try not to overdo it. I don't feel that is oppressive or unfair to me - it's a choice I make out of consideration for his feelings.

In a perfect world we could all do whatever the heck we felt like and everyone would feel the same. But then where's the challenge in that? Then there'd be nothing to rebel against by crossdressing or how would the young buck the establishment and on and on. I simply do not agree that all social constructs and restrictions are bad. Many are wrong, but requiring everyone to accept unconditionally and approve of everything is in some ways taking away as much individuality as suprressing the thoughts/ideas you disapprove of.

[jennifer41356]

I agree with Melinda......though...and I hate to say it, you have been keeping it from her and she feels betrayed, its a bombshell in her mind, maybe not a large one, but you cant help to see her point....unfair, hell yes....but you have to accept her decision now ...sorry about your pain, hope eventually she will see how much fun it can be to have someone who absolutley loves everything she loves

[sobe1ove GG]

Man, tree's my girlfriend. Everything she says is right in my eyes. She gave great examples.

From Jamie001:

Women incorporate masculine items into their wardrobes on a daily basis (neckties, large men's watches (my wife borrows one of my large watches), men's shoes, baseball caps, etc) and they are not CDing. Do you believe that it is ok for your SO to reciprocate and incorporate items from fem fashion into his appearance, or is it full-on crossdressing that is a problem if he adopts a female presentation, mannerisms, and a female personna?

First: Most women don't incorporate men's shoes and so fourth. Although that wouldn't be a bad thing, it isn't as common as you insinuate.

Second: Conversely, men can wear lady shoes. My boyfriend does in male mode all of the time. He wears lady watches. In guy mode. And no one is the wiser. Those things can happen and it's no big deal. A girl wearing a man's watch isn't the same as a man wearing a woman's dress. Watches to watches.

[Satrana]

My choice is whether to accompany him on that expressive journey.

This may not apply to you personally Tree, but discussing this as a matter of choice is misdirecting. The issue is that many women struggle with crossdressing because they think it is WRONG so it is not just a preference of wanting to be with a masculine man over a feminine man. The issue is that feminine men are socially taboo and are discriminated against, including in personal relationships with their SOs. Discrimination and preference are not the same issues.

I am a closet naturist (I like to run topless in the woods, OK?) By your reasoning I should be allowed that freedom in the supermarket, at a school function or in my profession.

If men could be nudists and women not then you could claim a double standard. Since society bans everyone from being nude in public then everyone has to play by the same rules. If there are enough nudists in society they can try to change attitudes and get the law changed.

The issue is not freedom of expression, it is there is a double standard where one gender has a relatively large freedom to wear whatever garment they want without social/employment consequences while the other gender has limited freedom to wear garments without social/employment consequences.

This is my thing - and expecting him to validate my actions for me is absurd. Same with his CDing.

You are correct, it is not the job of the SO to validate the feelings of the other. In the same vein it is not the job of the SO to control and restrict the actions of the other.

I simply do not agree that all social constructs and restrictions are bad.

What rules are considered good or bad is subjective and changes over time. However when one gender is discriminated over another then this is always bad. So long as everyone is being treated equally regardless of gender, race, wealth etc then people can accommodate the rules. It is the unequal treatment that should be eliminated.

We may never reach perfect equality but that is no excuse not to make this our goal and do everything in our power to continue to move towards this goal. The worst thing we should do is just shrug our shoulders and accept discrimination.

[battybattybats]

Batty,

We're going to have to agree to disagree. Yes, I believe he and he alone is responsible for how he expresses his CDness. He didn't ask to be CD, he didn't ask to be born at all, but there it is. How he expresses it is his choice. My choice is whether to accompany him on that expressive journey.

His choice there may not be limitless but it is true that you always have the choice to leave or not.

I take exception to you insinuating that my "problem" with CDing is a socially based construction and my husband should be free to do whatever he wants to make himself happy and the rest of the world should go along la-dee-da with him just because he wants it. In a perfect world, maybe. In the real world, not likely.

By that point in my post I was speaking generally to the subject rather than to you specifically and I apologise for any offense I may have inadvertantly caused. However as many societies through history have had CDers as a respected, loved and welcome part of society any notion that most have a problem with CDing that is innate is easilly and imediately dismissable. What your personal problem with it is, you would have to tell me.
Now, if his action is ethical (in that it infringes the rights of no-one else) then yes he should be so free. In fact, if the world resists that freedom there is a moral obligation to oppose that resistance. For example, when slavery was accepted within societies 'mores' it was still unethical and therfore it was right for it to be opposed and wrong for it not to be opposed. The same is true of segregation or the lack of womens sufferage. Those changes happened in the real world, through blood sweat and tears, because they were right and the opposite was wrong even though many at the time did not understand the higher philosophy that determined it as such.

I am a closet naturist (I like to run topless in the woods, OK?) By your reasoning I should be allowed that freedom in the supermarket, at a school function or in my profession. But I'm NOT an exhibitionist or nudist. When it's super hot, and I'm alone with nature, I like the freedom and feeling of nearly total nudity. I don't have to do it in front of everyone or anyone to express myself and enjoy the feeling. Expressing it for myself when appropriate and comfortable is enough.

There are arguments for the freedom of naturists in general public spaces, however they are controvertial. However so long as they are comfortable in doing so in clearly marked areas then they can do so without needing such justifications, as is the case in many countries that have nudist beaches and resorts. So even if you needed to be nude in public there are ways you may, depending on your location, morally and ethically do so.

Also, I do not require that my husband follow me around spouting how wonderful it is that I am topless. Quite frankly, he's afraid of it - feels it may lessen the importance of nudity for intimate purposes so doesn't approve. (Now who's the prude? ) Do I stop? Do I scold him and scorn him for not feeling what I feel? Do I label him as unsupporting or unaccepting for not jumping in and playing along as well? NO. This is my thing - and expecting him to validate my actions for me is absurd. Same with his CDing. However, out of courtesy for his feeling, I do tone it down and try not to overdo it. I don't feel that is oppressive or unfair to me - it's a choice I make out of consideration for his feelings.

You have every right to expect him to not interfere with your nudism and to accept your nudism when it is in private. You have no right to expect him to participate in it nor share your feelings about it nor understand it. This is simple really.. your body is yours, your possesions are yours, and his are his. In between is shared space and shared activity. If he were to join in he would need to be consenting to do so and it would occur within the shared space. If he did not want to be around you when you were nude that is his right, however he could not impose his will over the shared space so that requires negotiation.. and either person should be able to leave and practise the nudity elsewhere or be away the shared space from to allow the private practise. If it is difficult or illegal to be nude outside of the privacy of the home the moral onus would be on the husband to allow sufficient space for the private practise so he could go and be elsewhere during such times.

In a perfect world we could all do whatever the heck we felt like and everyone would feel the same. But then where's the challenge in that?

Umm... everyone would be the same? Surely everyone would have the same freedom but there would be greater diversity as not everyone would use their freedom the same way. Challenge? There would still be the challenge to be original, to improve... In fact there would be little to no change in the scope of either Art or Science.

Then there'd be nothing to rebel against by crossdressing or how would the young buck the establishment and on and on.

Why would people need something to rebel against? And even with freedom respected so long as there are trends their will be iconoclasts. In plenty of fields that have little enforced restriction there are still plenty of paradigm shifts.

I simply do not agree that all social constructs and restrictions are bad.

Indeed, and I do not suggest all are. However the ones that are unethical are. Social constructs and restrictions that harm the rights and freedoms of the individual are bad, such as slavery, segregation, bigotry etc. Some, such as road rules, fair democratic political systems that have enshrined protections for minorities from the potentially abusive tyranny of majority etc are not.

Many are wrong, but requiring everyone to accept unconditionally and approve of everything is in some ways taking away as much individuality as suprressing the thoughts/ideas you disapprove of.

I should make something clear.. people, to a point, have the right to do things that may be wrong. There is a moral obligation on people to extend the rights they enjoy to everyone else and to accept the free use of such so long as it doesn't conflict with the rights of others no matter how immoral it may be. For example, a racist has the right to be racist and their freedom of speech means they can express their views, even though their views are demonstrably wrong, inconsistent and stupid. If you believe in freedom of speech you must be prepared to defend the right of people you disagree with to disagree with you. However there are some things you do not have to accept or defend but that you are obligated instead to oppose.

I'll continue with the example of the racist.. lets say that an anti-semite is making anti-semitic statements.. a Jewish person who believes in the principle of free speech would be prepared to defend the right of the racist to make those statements so long as others have the same right to make counter statements. To defend the right of one they must defend the same right for all. However if the racist was to comit an act of racism beyond his imediate person and immediate possessions, say by hitting a jewish person or by sacking them because they were jewish then the racist has extended beyond their rights and abused the rights of another and anyone who believes in individual rights are therefore morally and ethically obligated to oppose that. (This example is based on a real event!)

The obligation comes merely from considering all rights equal.

Accepting the rights of others does not in any way diminish and individuals rights or their individuality, it merely ensures that they cannot abuse the rights of others. What would be lost? Traditions like circumcision and female circumcision? People could still elect to go through the procedure when they came of age if they wanted to. The stoning and burning of heretics? People could still denounce them in words and then individuals could make their own mind up about whjo is right. The repression of minorities? The majority would still be the majority but the minority would be free of abuse. Marriage? If gay people can marry how would that hurt the marriage of straight people? Can anyone name one good thing that would actually be lost? Just one?

As I said before, accepting the rights of others isn't easy... especially of those close to us. But we do not like it when others deny us our rights so we are obligated to allow, respect, defend and fight for the rights of others, especially those who would use those rights in ways we would want them not to.

[StayceeCD]

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...ad.php?t=67279

This is a very sad story and I have seen it already.. However, I have not been on this board in a while and see that I have been getting mostly support from CD's and slammed by GG's... Let me elaborate a little more on my situation.. I have been married 15 years to my wife who by the way I love more than words can describe! We have been together since I was 20 & she was 18! I'm now 44 & she is 42.. We have had a great relationship.. And still mostly do.. We love each other, we have FUN!! We have the sweetest most beautiful little 4 yr old girl that I would lay my life down for.. At 20, if I had told her about my CD'ing?? Who knows? I still had not come to terms with it myself!! I thought I was a freak! I didn't know "guys"did this!! So.. No.. I did not tell her.. I also didn't tell anyone else! I have friends that I've known since grade school who do not know! This is not something you casually tell your friends!! So please don't slam me!! If I was given the opportunity to "make it go away" and not have these "urges".. I would take it! .. That being said, I DO have the urge to dress from time to time and can not suppress it.. I've tried the "purge" and saying to myself I'm not going to do it anymore.. I know from experience that I CAN NOT STOP! It ALWAYS comes back!! Well, just great isn't it? I've got a family that I love more than BREATHING!! AND I can't stop doing what may drive my wife, and daughter away? Well.. THANKS GOD!!! Anyway, my wifes initial reaction from "being turned on" to saying "she can't have this in her life" was only about a week and a half.. She has NEVER seen me dressed, nor seen ANY pictures of me.. SO.... "JUMPING at EVERY opportunity to be in the CD community while she holds down the Home fort" Does NOT apply to me!! I have not in ANY WAY made her feel that a "wig, garter or g-string is more precious".. Nor would I if she were to be accepting... So, although I can never know how much of a major shock it must be to find out that your SO is a CD.. We have lived out whole lives with it. Most of us growing up in a time when we felt like freaks! NEVER to tell anyone!! I never asked for this.. It has caused me much pain and confusion, and now my wife... I love my wife VERY VERY dearly.. The LAST thing on earth I would ever want to do is hurt her.. If I could make it go away, I would.. But I can not make it go away any more than I can change the color of my skin.. I'm stuck with it for life.. I only hope that I can find a happy medium that we both can accept..

Go read this http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...ad.php?t=67279

If that doesn't break your heart, nothing will.

And if you believe it is "just clothes" then you really are in a denial that I would be proud to call my own. Face it, crossdressing is a very intimate thing that involves sex and attraction - to varying degrees, of course, but still a factor.

Could it be, and I'm just going out on a limb here, that for whatever reason your wife is perceiving the dressing, your woman within, is more important to you than she? Have you jumped at every opportunity to immerse yourself in the TG community and your femme self while she stands by and continues holding the home fort?

For one week, just one week, make every effort to show by action that your wife and family is the love of your life and no wig, garter or g-string is more precious. Say that one sentence to her, and that's all, but walk the walk for a week. Live it, don't just say it. I'd bet good money her rejection will ease if not subside.

I don't think you all realize just how much your behavior does change. You go about the motions of your daily lives but you start changing things - shaving, eyebrows, posture, reading materials, etc. Admittedly it could be a perception and over sensitivity by the wife but I believe it's a combination of both. We start looking for changes, and darned if we don't find them.

IMO - it is up to the crossdresser to keep this on a positive, non-threatening note. Wives usually don't want to control you, but they want to be confident that your piorities are still in line with their's. Breastforms full steam ahead does not instill a feeling of fun or well being for most wives.

[StayceeCD]

OK, Well.. I suppose it IS more than JUST clothes.. BUT I was frustrated and upset when I did my initial post.. HOWEVER... I would NEVER "Insult" or "Demean" my wife!! You do not know me, and have NO way of knowing the depth of my love for her! My wife & daughter ARE my life!! BUT I am intelligent enough, and truthful enough to know I can not ever stop crossdressing! I DO not want to become a woman.. I am not gay or attracted to men in any way. I do not want to alter my body in any way! Once or twice a month is all I need to satisfy the "urge"! Most guys golf or watch football more than that! I do neither! My wife is welcome to indulge the things she finds enjoyable any time.. Shopping, massages, nights out with the friends. Whatever.. I only want her to be happy.. Next week, we will all be in Italy visiting her family for 2 weeks. I try to do my best.. I am in no way perfect.. Who is? I know CD'ing is out of the realm of "normal" but.... We will see how things go... Thanks to all the girls who gave me support (and compliments) And to the ones who slammed me.. Like I said.. You DO NOT know me and can not equate your situation with mine.. It's never a "one size fits all" scenario!! Think before posting!

this board wouldn't even be needed. As an SO I found your post insulting and demeaning to your wife.

BOTH of you need understanding for the other person.


Louise.

[rachellenicole]

It's unfortunate that opinions were formed about you without regard to actual knowledge of your situation. I'm sure assumptions were made as to the frequency of your dressing, just looking at your avatar, which is very pretty by the way, it would appear that you spend a lot of time dressed, hence the assumption that you were abandoning your family in favor of crossdressing. It sounds like you are a dedicated and loving husband and father, it sad that your wife, and many other wifes/SO's are unaccepting.
I am VERY fortunate that my wife is accepting, and supports me. I too am a very dedicated husband and love my wife and children unconditionally.

In occasional posts I have noticed that when a shot is fired at someone, it can become a feeding frenzy where both sides are at odds. This is not the reason the majority of us are on this site...... How about some compassion, tolerence and humility.

I wish you the best and hope you and your wife can work things out.

Rach.

[docrobbysherry]

My wife found a strange bra in our bedroom and assumed it was another woman's. I confessed my secret fetish. Which only started after our marriage was already in trouble. Stacee, here's the part you need to know. My wife and I went to a licensed psychologist to deal with our problems. We went to her for many months. My crossdressing was dealt with in less than an hour. What I did; hurt no one, was a secret to everyone but my wife and was innocent role play. That was what the psychologist said! Throw out everyone's oppinions! Go talk to a professional. Get valuable help you can really use. I promise you will feel better afterwards. Best money I ever spent! If you could get your WIFE in also, you both might benefit. I also loved my wife and have never looked at men. We ended up getting a divorce. But there's a happy ending! I can play dressup to my hearts content, and my sex life has never been better! Oh, my ex has been dating women since our breakup. So, no one has all the answers, honey.

[JazmyneCD]

You know, a lot of wives think their hubbies look better in their clothes than they do. That's certainly the case w/ my wife and I.

Fortunately, my wife also adhered to the "just clothes" theory and lets me do it to this day. Hopefully you can work this out w/ your wife. I'm pulling for you both.

[KatrinaAshley]

To anyone who hasn't - don't marry. Saves a lot of trouble down the road.

[Tree GG]

Hmmmm, I really don't see how I "slammed" you but OK. I will apologize for the incorrect perception that this change of attitude occurred over a longer period than 1-1/2 weeks. I notice you've been a member here since 2006, that's over a year. I will not presume when this 1-1/2 week period you speak of began or ended. But you have been exploring the TG community for longer than that.

So I stand behind my original post. Have you reassured your wife that the love you feel for her & your family is priority #1 and CDing is just an aspect of yourself that has to come out now (for whatever reason)? You didn't ask for this, no one said you did, but you have to accept the responsibility for how you express it and be considerate of how it affects those who love you. If both parties stay in "poor me the victim mode", nothing gets worked out. (I find taking turns works best ) Sorry, most of us just don't jump on that bandwagon 1st thing. We just don't know what it means, and as you & my husband both state, you don't really know either. Hence the importance of emphasizing those base, non-negotiable priorities AGAIN (I know, after that many years together it seems redundant and why would we question it, but we do.)

BTW, we've been together since we were 16 & 17, both in our mid-40s now, and I just learned of CDing in the past 1-1/2 yrs. I believe I have a similar perspective and experience to your wife.

Best of luck to you

[MsJanessa]

Maybe you're lookin' too good girl. Looking at your Avitor (whatever its called) I would have thought you were out and full timing LOL. It's really too bad she can not accept you, she might be missing some fun "girl" times out. At least you were out for a while which is a good thing I guess but it will tug at your heart and tear you apart. I feel for you. Best of luck & hoping for only the best. Hang in there girl

If you look as good as your avatar photo, your wife is probably jealous---lol

[Sheila]

If you look as good as your avatar photo, your wife is probably jealous---lol

you know it is comments like that that make me want to
a ) throw up
B) throw my hands in the air and scream
c) go and slap HIM yes HIM

[Dee Talbot]

A lot of what goes on here on the forum is fantasy based. We who are married or are in commited relationships all have and ideal in mind of what our relationships should be. But, the ideal really is a fantasy. Reality is a lot harder to deal with.

Barbara wanted to come out to me in Las Vegas on our 15th anniversary. In the fantasy, I would be swept away by her beauty and would be immediately accepting. After all, it's just clothes...right?

The reality is, had Barbara gone through with her plan, I would have been upset for a myriad of reasons. Some logical....some clearly illogical.

Her fantasy didn't jibe with reality. But, at the time she came up with the idea...it made perfect sense to her. My fantasy of our time in Vegas (more family oriented) would have been at odds with Barbara's. The end result?? Two people, married, hoping for what didn't happen.....very dissapointed.

My point is this: We, all of us...regardless of gender, orientation, creed, color, religion, etc..... carry with us little fantasies about what we would like our lives to be. You Staycee, would clearly like your wife to be more accepting than she is. But, she clearly isn't. Maybe your fantasies of what your marriage should be, could be, will be, aren't always in synch. That's normal. That's what marriage is. I feel empathy for you that you feel you cannot be who you are. But, even if they are "just clothes" to you....it may not be that simple to your wife.

I want to echo docrobbysherry's recommendation for counseling. It sometimes helps to have and unbiased third party guide you to a place where your fantasies and hers, come closer to each other's and to reality. I only suggest this option, because of the love you have for your wife. Give her (and yourself) the opportunity to express feelings in a safe environment. You may find that it can't be worked through. You may find that you get everything you ever wanted in this marriage.

Dee

[noname]

Second: Conversely, men can wear lady shoes. My boyfriend does in male mode all of the time. He wears lady watches. In guy mode. And no one is the wiser. Those things can happen and it's no big deal. A girl wearing a man's watch isn't the same as a man wearing a woman's dress. Watches to watches.

Great, glad to know you only wear dresses or skirts since pants are a mens item. There are still many people today who believe this, my wife being one of them. She has never worn pants in her life. I don't understand why it is difficult for people to practice what they preach.

[Marcie Sexton]

Stacey, perhaps you should approach her about joining this forum...

My wife when I first came out to her wasn't a very happy camper, however for some unknown reason she deceided that I wasn't a freak or pervert...

Perhaps she found this site, I really don't know or do I care...All I know is she has come to accept me as I am...she is a member of the forum and I think a member of the GG only section too, she hasn't really said, nor have I ask...

She has said to me on more than one occasion that it is in deed only clothes, that I am in deed the same person, just slightly different clothing...

I hope this helps, good luck, and God bless...

If its any help, I too did and would again quit dressing if needed to protect the family. I commend you for your stand...

Again good luck in your life...

[battybattybats]

you know it is comments like that that make me want to
a ) throw up
B) throw my hands in the air and scream
c) go and slap HIM yes HIM

And the same thing could be said about others possible response to your response to those comments.
A) just cause you don't like it doesn't make it wrong, either factually incorrect or morally wrong.
B) fair enough, but what does that reveal?
C) violence is wrong. Violence because of an opinion or speech is even more wrong. Sure you may just want to slap him and I assume you'd restrain yourself from doing so but... isn't wanting to commit violence for something that doesn't deserve violence demonstrating something?

Having had one masculine GG who saw me dressed exclaim that she was jeolous as I looked more feminine than she did might say more about how masculine she looked naturally, but it does show that some do feel that way sometimes.

You don't have to agree with such comments, but why get so upset over it?