I can pass better than you...

[Nicki B]

I made a post on the Ultimate Crossdressers thread which nobody seems to have picked up on....





What's really so good about passing? If you pass, that means the world doesn't notice us as existing, doesn't realise we're little different to everyone else, that we can live in the world without threatening them..

In short, nothing will change, if we aim to pass all the time?

And an obsession with passing better than others seems to fit with that 'tranny hierarchy' that so many seem to try and fit into - a TS trumps a TG, who trumps a TV/CD... So unnecessary, and just as destructive as genetic women's obsession with body image; both to us as individuals, and to our whole community...

Or am I really just in a minority of one?

[Lovely Rita]

I made a post on the Ultimate Crossdressers thread which nobody seems to have picked up on....



What's really so good about passing? If you pass, that means the world doesn't notice us as existing, doesn't realise we're little different to everyone else, that we can live in the world without threatening them..

In short, nothing will change, if we aim to pass all the time?

And an obsession with passing better than others seems to fit with that 'tranny hierarchy' that so many seem to try and fit into - a TS trumps a TG, who trumps a TV/CD... So unnecessary, and just as destructive as genetic women's obsession with body image; both to us as individuals, and to our whole community...

Or am I really just in a minority of one?

Nicki, I posted a similar thread months ago and it certainly was fuel for lively discussion. Interesting to revisit the same subject matter.

[Marla S]

In short, nothing will change, if we aim to pass all the time?

Right, but is there really the intention to change anything ?

Or is the wish to change something just the effect that 99%
of us don't pass (all the time).

I guess if there would be the choice between passing and changing, the vast majority would go for passing and leave any definition of gender and gender roles untouched. The latter is quite often only a workaround IMO.

[Nicki B]

Rita, you mean this one? Sorry, I'm still new around here...


Marla - don't most of us want to the world to feel more accepting? Fear seems to be where so many of us start, if not reside permanently?

[Kate Simmons]

I hear what you are saying Nicki and I get slightly annoyed by this myself. Everyone I make contact with knows I am a CD and I make no pretense to be otherwise, even so, I enjoy the occassional compliments. I've had people say "no way you are a guy and I say yes, way, I am." I've even come to the point of showing some folks my license to prove it (I don't think I look THAT good really). Bottom line is I want them to know I'm a guy, otherwise what's the point? Being "invisible" accomplishes nothing IMO."Oh, so you have to get dressed up like a woman to have fun? No, I don't have to, I like to", there is a difference. I don't make an issue about it in any case. When they see my purpose is to have fun and enjoy being myself some see that we are maybe not that weird after all. Works for me.

[Nicki B]

Salandra, speaking for myself, I don't think I'm a guy... But I'm certainly not a woman, either?

I confess I would get upset if people treated me like a 'bloke'?

[Dita_B]

I, for one, go for both. Passing is my first objective but I am not that foolish that I think I pass all the time.

So in those instances I know I don't pass, I have the hope that I trigger in those that pick up on it, an awareness of a segment in the public that wishes to express themselves as members of the opposite sex...

And I hope that somewhere in their hearts they may appreciate the efforts that I and my sisters have gone through to make our appearance as good as humanly possible. At least I am aiming for their thinking: "that may be a guy in drag, but boy does she ever look good"...

Observing this phenomenon on a regular basis, which is unavoidable when one cruises the Malls all the time, may help to create awareness and tolerance for our cause... People get used to it and that might pave the way to encourage those CD's still in the closet, to venture out as well...

At least, that is my hope...

Dita.

[Kate Simmons]

Salandra, speaking for myself, I don't think I'm a guy... But I'm certainly not a woman, either?

I confess I would get upset if people treated me like a 'bloke'?

Well, speaking for myself Nicki, even after I make it known who I really am, some folks continue to relate to me as a gal anyway, not that I'm complaining mind you. I just want there to be no misunderstandings up front. Sometimes it is gauged by how you present when you meet them. This is one thing mystifying about this whole CDing thing that I've experienced. To most people I know who met me as Sal, I'm always Sal whether I'm Sal or Rich. Go figure.

[Nicki B]

Like Rita on her thread, this was not intended as an attack on those who do pass - more to the attitudes that make us want to?

But I do have plenty of friends who have made the journey through transition, who feel that they've 'paid their dues' in changing attitudes?

I am NOT trying to be divisive, here - I believe we stand together, or all suffer?

[Stephenie S]

I made a post on the Ultimate Crossdressers thread which nobody seems to have picked up on....





What's really so good about passing? If you pass, that means the world doesn't notice us as existing, doesn't realise we're little different to everyone else, that we can live in the world without threatening them..

In short, nothing will change, if we aim to pass all the time?

And an obsession with passing better than others seems to fit with that 'tranny hierarchy' that so many seem to try and fit into - a TS trumps a TG, who trumps a TV/CD... So unnecessary, and just as destructive as genetic women's obsession with body image; both to us as individuals, and to our whole community...

Or am I really just in a minority of one?

Not sure what your point is here, hon.

Are you complaining about the hierarchy? Or lamenting that you don't pass? Very true that if no one notices you, then YOU in particular are not doing much to advance the "cause" so to speak. But some of us (well, ME for instance), don't want to be noticed. I just want to be left alone to live my life the way I want to.

I can't "pass". There's no way. But I can and do live and work as a woman 24/7. That's what I want to do. I supose I MUST be doing SOME good, as people see me, talk to me, and interact with me on a daily basis. They can easily see that I'm not a freak, or a weirdo, or a child molester. I'm just a woman of a "certain age" doing her job and trying to keep her head above water.

It's true that the world needs more education. But that IS happening. Slowly but surely. There was reference to a new television show this AM on Regis and Kelly that has a TG character played by a TG actor. Now THAT'S progress if I ever saw it. There is more and more public awareness every day. Will we see the day when it's OK to do what we want, when we want, any time soon? I dunno. But things are getting better. Could I be doing what I'm doing now, 30 years ago? I doubt it.

Lovies,
Stephenie

[Violetgray]

What is so great about passing? Hmm let me think...

O.k. This is the way that I see it:

Women, just by being women, are beautiful. If I get dressed up and I go out, and the people that see me and glance over me as just another woman, then by extension they are telling me that I am beautiful. Follow me?

But its not just about what they think. First and foremost its about what I think. I feel a need to see something attractive when I look in the mirror.

And the need to pass better than someone else? I sure hope you have not seen that in some among us... that would be unfortunate and petty not to mention ultimately futile because there's always someone you'll feel can pass better than you! That having been said, I have seen other places how some TS look down on the other gender variant people..

[Marla S]

Marla - don't most of us want to the world to feel more accepting?

True, but where does this come from ? This feeling only rises when we are personally effected by non-acceptance. Otherwise we probably couldn't care less.

Which higher form of acceptance a CD can achieve than passing as a woman ?
It's usually an illusion though, at least when it concerns "normal" socialization.

Fear seems to be where so many of us start, if not reside permanently?

Of course, because we feel non-accepted.

The way out, as already stated:
1.) Passing
if this doesn't work
2.) Seeking for other forms of acceptance and claiming that passing is not important.

If it only would be to look good and/or feminine all this padding, breastforms, aka names and stuff wouldn't be required. We would just try to look our best with what we have. But the goal is to look like a woman, in order to be accepted as a woman (usually the stereotypical one), aka passing.
Very few are able to in real life, some more on pics, the majority isn't; but most dream about this illusion.
And this passing hierarchy causes the "tranny" hierarchy.
The more you look like a woman the more easy you are accepted by the society and by the TG community, because TG community also has very traditional and stereotypical views ... sometimes even more traditional than society.

Nothing wrong with this, but IMO that's the way it is.

[Nicki B]

Not sure what your point is here, hon.

Are you complaining about the hierarchy? Or lamenting that you don't pass?

Well yes to the first, and no to the second... I'm complaining about the apparent 'need' amongst some (many??) for both?

But some of us (well, ME for instance), don't want to be noticed. I just want to be left alone to live my life the way I want to.

I can't "pass". There's no way. But I can and do live and work as a woman 24/7. That's what I want to do. I supose I MUST be doing SOME good, as people see me, talk to me, and interact with me on a daily basis. They can easily see that I'm not a freak, or a weirdo, or a child molester. I'm just a woman of a "certain age" doing her job and trying to keep her head above water.

I think (though you may not realise it) that we are very much in agreement. Cultures can't be changed overnight - it takes decades? And it happens drip by drip if we all (or those of us who feel we can) add our drop of water? I'm not saying 'throw it in their faces', just accept yourself?

But I see so many people putting such effort into 'passing' and really feeling gutted when someone unkindly reminds them that they don't... When actually, all they need is to be proud of who they are?

The normal attitude I've met, from both genetic women and men, when friends & I are out, is respect that we are willing to be ourselves?

IMHO the trans world is full of very courageous people, though most of them would say 'I'm just living my life, as best I can'?

The bravest girl I know (who picks herself up everytime, then scares herself silly all over again) keeps telling me what a coward she is..

[tracigirl_tv]

..... First and foremost its about what I think. I feel a need to see something attractive when I look in the mirror.....

Violet, I am in agreement with you here. Undoubtedly, our vanity quotient is above-average.

I had a gf (gg) once who said that I was selfish....she meant it not as a put-down, but simply as an observation. Many of us have given up certain things for the sake of our dressing, and I guess that does make us selfish, doesn't it?

(Hmmm, I may have drifted off-topic here...)

[Patti Girl]

Very interesting thread and I think the responses show that the very different reasons among us for dressing.

Some want to make a statement, and perhaps be noticed for what they are, and want to promote crossdressing. Some of us just feel comfortable en femme and don't want to make waves. Just like some gays want to live quietly and peacefully and privately while others prefer the extreme "in your face" approach.

I'm not passable so I don't go out dressed, at least not in any observable way. Maybe someday I'll feel different.

And an obsession with passing better than others seems to fit with that 'tranny hierarchy' that so many seem to try and fit into - a TS trumps a TG, who trumps a TV/CD...

Interesting comment. In my view (FWIW) of things (and according to Wikipedia and Dr. Harry Benjamin's Gender Disorientation Scale), TG encompasses the entire range from occassionaly CD to full TS. TG isn't in the middle, it's the entire range. Of course the Internet is full of varied views and opinions and sometimes downright misinformation

Personally, I don't see that anyone is better than anyone else, from the occasional "I can sneak panties on while the wife is away" to the full 24/7 girl able to pass. I do feel that those who are able to do what they want without limits are more fortunate that those limited by the environment (or marriage).

Patti

[Nicki B]

Which higher form of acceptance a CD can achieve than passing as a woman ?

Wouldn't being accepted as something other than a man or woman be a higher another form of acceptance? I think you're saying there can only be 'either/or', a very binary view of gender?

The way out, as already stated:
1.) Passing
if this doesn't work
2.) Seeking for other forms of acceptance and claiming that passing is not important.

I've obviously missed a discussion - can you point me to where?

But the goal is to look like a woman, in order to be accepted as a woman (usually the stereotypical one), aka passing.
Very few are ale to in real life, some more on pics, the majority isn't; but most dream about this illusion.
And this passing hierarchy causes the "tranny" hierarchy.

Mmm - and so much pain?

TG community also has very traditional and stereotypical views ... sometimes even more traditional than society.

Yet, since we cross genders, shouldn't we be encouraging more fluidity, not less?

Nothing wrong with this, but IMO that's the way it is.

With respect - I think there is something wrong with it, or we as a community wouldn't be so guilt-ridden and prone to anger, depression, suicide? Why does it have to be the way it is, can't we try to change it?

[Brianna Lovely]

What's really so good about passing? If you pass, that means the world doesn't notice us as existing, doesn't realise we're little different to everyone else, that we can live in the world without threatening them.

Ok, so I'm a mature lady, and I don't think I pass, most of the time.
Does that keep me inside? Not on your life!

Would I like to be a 20 year old, with a perfect figure? Yes! But I'll have to settle for being myself.
I'm a gurl who wears fem clothes and a wig all the time. Sometimes I wear forms and full makeup, but that usually takes too much time to get ready, so most of the time, it's a skirt, fem top, wig, light lipstick, purse, sandals and out the door.

I go to most of the same places, meetings, restaurants, stores, gas station, post office etc. in both modes, semi-fem and full-fem.

And I make it a point, to explain to those who ask, that I'm a TG person.

[Kate Simmons]

This is one of the reasons I left the TG Org I was in. Don't get me wrong, they do help promote understanding but my problem was I had to be myself. You can't do that when someone is trying to press you into a mold regardless of how beneficial it may seem. The whole "TG hierarchy" is a load of dunky dust and we all know it. Much better to appreciate and accept folks for who they are as people in my opinion, not to mention less work.

[Kieron Andrew]

Its this simple to me, im very happy to 'pass' (hate that term btw) as a Transman rather than a GM, im proud of my Trans status and proud of the Trans community, i dont want to be accepted as a GM, i want to be accepted as a Trans person cos thats what i am and dont want to deny that......I too think the world needs a helping hand to accept us, and if we are all intent on merging into society and being 'the same' as everyone else, then we are denying ourselves to ourselves and the world, and thus not educating the masses that yes we do exist and some of us do not see ourselves as either male nor female for those inbetweenies out there....how can the world accept us if they do not see us

[Ðarissa]

It's too bad we seem to think we have to completely dress in order to go out and have this desire to pass. I would be so happy to be in drab at home and suddenly just take off the jeans, throw on a skirt and cute shoes and stockings and go to the store but I don't do this and wish I wasn't such a big chicken. I keep thinking I have to completely dress enfemme in order to go outside but I really wish that I didn't feel that way. This world is pretty messed up and I get frustrated thinking about how lame it all is.

[Marla S]

Wouldn't being accepted as something other than a man or woman be a higher form of acceptance? I think you're saying there can only be 'either/or', a very binary view of gender?

What should that 'something other' be ?

Of course it is binary, but do you see any other view than the binary one even here on this forum ? There are not even words for this "something else".

-We have male and female user names ... binary ... only a few have non-gender or gender neutral names.
-We have 'male to female' and 'female to male' ... binary
-We have those with a fem self and a male self ... binary
-We have those that that ask "am I a girl when I underdress in drab or I am a boy then?"
-We have GMs that go full time as woman and vice versa ... binary
-We have those that are happy when they are called Ma'am and those that are happy when they are called Sir ... binary
etc.etc.etc.

It is binary and it will stay that way. If not even we are able to think different than binary, how should society be ?

The only thing that eventually can change (and very slowly does) is the definition and the expected look of men and women.

With respect - I think there is something wrong with it, or we wouldn't be so guilt-ridden and prone to anger, depression, suicide? Why does it have to be the way it is, can't we try to change it?

Because we think binary, and if this binarity is present in a single individual it causes problems until we find a workaround. TG community eventually could change something (actually it contributes a bit to changes), but as long as "man" or "woman" are more important than the authenticity of the individual as highest value which needs acceptance, it will stay that way. What is a GM that looks like a woman ? What's a GG that looks like a man ? The essence is they are individuals and should be accepted a such.

[Nicki B]

It is binary and it will stay that way. If not even we are able to think different than binary, how should society be ?

The only thing that eventually can change (and very slowly does) is the definition and the expected look of men and women.

I disagree... Nature is not binary. Other cultures are not binary?

[Marla S]

I disagree... Nature is not binary. Other cultures are not binary?

Like what ?

Bacteria, algae and viruses come to mind as non binary. What else ?
There are some lizards which have no male gender ... all girls

[Nicki B]

There are over ninety different intersex conditions identified in humans.

Native North American cultures, amongst others, recognise more than masculine and feminine?

Nature always does diversity - that's how we get evolution?

[jaina]

And an obsession with passing better than others seems to fit with that 'tranny hierarchy' that so many seem to try and fit into - a TS trumps a TG, who trumps a TV/CD... So unnecessary, and just as destructive as genetic women's obsession with body image; both to us as individuals, and to our whole community...

Or am I really just in a minority of one?

I'm sure you are in the minority. Not many are willing to notice or comment on the strong " CD is ok if hidden" undertones, not only in the community but in the support network also. these are hard concepts for many to swallow and often bring hate and threats on those that bring them up.