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Thread: Is Sexual Orientation an Issue? (All Can Answer)

  1. #1
    Swishy Pirate CaptLex's Avatar
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    Question Is Sexual Orientation an Issue? (All Can Answer)

    I've been reading the umpteenth thread in the MtF section about whether it's "bad" or incorrect to label crossdressers gay. It's a never-ending discussion there, with people commenting on all sides of the issue, and it made me wonder why it doesn't seem to be much of an issue with us. I'm guessing it might have to do with the difference between most FtMs and MtFs. In other words, it seems a lot of FtMs do not identify as crossdressers - and there may be a larger diversity in our group: bi-gendered, genderqueer, TG, TS, and people born female-bodied who don't quite feel female, but don't attach a label to themselves.

    Anyway, my point is that our group here (which I believe is representative of transmasculine people everywhere) doesn't seem to have much of an issue with sexual orientation, other than to occasionally question whether we may be open to switching teams. Why the diff? Why don't we wonder as much about this stuff? Many of us have been incorrectly labeled in our sexual orientation and we have no problem correcting people, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone refer to it as "bad" - just incorrect.

    Also, Trey and I had a discussion recently about how fluid gender and sexuality are, and the numerous combinations that can come about because of this. Aren't we limiting ourselves if we apply sexual orientation tags to ourselves also? Isn't there an almost limitless combination between all the different gender roles and forms of attraction? Is this thread too serious - should we just break out the rum?
    But why is the rum gone?! - Capt. Jack Sparrow [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl[/SIZE]

    Why is the rum always gone? - Capt. Jack Sparrow [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest[/SIZE]

    Why is all but the rum gone? No, the rum's gone too . . .
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    Silver Member Lisa Golightly's Avatar
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    I am plastic.
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    Big Sister Nicki B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lisa Golightly View Post
    I am plastic.
    But platinum, of course. :winking:

    Being new round here, I confess I think it may be an american thing...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lisa Golightly View Post
    I am plastic.
    thought you were gold myself!

    Yup im with Nicki on this, shoot me if you like but i think its an american thing....but as to why it doesnt happen on side of the fence, dunno! maybe part of it is we see gender and sexuality as seperate, and our gender issues dont cloud what we are sexually attracted to on any given day, which i guess goes hand in hand with your conversation with Trey about Fluidity of gender and sexuality (did any of that just make one iota of sense lol)

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    Shining Through Teresa Amina's Avatar
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    It's a real minefield growing up male in the US, at least it used to be. Hopefully things are improving for the younguns but way back when if you were "different" you caught hell for it. The slightest breach of expectation got you labelled, shunned and probably beat up. Learning quickly to cover up and blend in were necessities. Is it really a surprise that some "protesteth too much"?
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  6. #6
    Pangender Fluffball Tobie's Avatar
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    An interesting topic.

    I find it a bit amusing that crossdressing males would be called gay, when most of them are actually quite heterosexual.

    I definitely feel that gender and sexuality are two very different things. My sexuality is as fluid as my gender. And although my preferences are the same whether I'm Melissa or Tiergan, they are 'labeled' two different things. Silly, in my mind.
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    Male ZenFrost's Avatar
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    I think it has something to do with the fact that many (not all) MtFs are heterosexual men who dress as women, and since crossdressing is often seen as queer, they're worried that they'll be seen as gay. On the other side, many (but not all) of us FtMs started out thinking we were lesbians and got comfortable with that fact before realizing we were transmasculine. I think that's just one of the reasons. Another could be that guys tend to be less high strung the girls.

    But I think the biggest reason why we don't seem to fret over our sexual orientations the same way many MtFs do is because we are a minority within a minority within a minority, and as such we've learned that labels only serve to separate us further.
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  8. #8
    Aspiring Member Anthony Jake's Avatar
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    I think Zen puts it very well there.

    there is so much more than just a label to a person, i think people worry too much about how they are being percieved.

    But i have noticed the MtF section seem to be more self conscious over what they should think of themselves... does that make sense?
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    T-something Marla S's Avatar
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    Personally sexual orientation isn't an issue for me. I think to know how I am wired and I actually couldn't care less about the sexual orientation of others ... I usually talk to and discuss with people The occasions when the sexual orientation of others really would effect me are not very frequent.

    BUT: I can't hear this word GAY anymore, because it is used by non-LGB(T) folks usually as an insult and stigma ... killer argument

    Just last weak I was asked not to participate in a meeting, because one of the GGs has seen me with makeup and nail-polish, thinks I am gay, which scares her (I don't have to understand this, do I).

    In this respect it is an issue for me.
    Last edited by Marla S; 10-30-2007 at 03:57 PM.

  10. #10
    Protector-from-Spiders Cai's Avatar
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    I'd fall into the camp that doesn't care one iota about sexual orientation. I realised last week that I really can't put a label on orientation right now. And that doesn't bother me.
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    Gold Member MJ's Avatar
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    well i don't consider myself a cross dresser and i don't care if someone labels me gay or what ever i am just me ..no big deal
    i wonder if it is the difference between those who just cross dress and those of us who are in transition after all .. if one is just a guy who likes to dress then the label would offend some imho
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  12. #12
    Adventuress Kate Simmons's Avatar
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    Yoiks Lex, call me anything but a donkey's butt. Means precious little to me since I don't give a rat's patudie what others call me. Now, about that rum.....................
    Second star to the right and straight on till morning

  13. #13
    Silver Member Lisa Golightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicki B View Post
    But platinum, of course. :winking:
    Isn't the black one the 'I'll take that island and throw in that hotel as well' card? I'd rather be that one...

    I think Zen talks a lot of sense.
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    Mr. Impossible SirTrey's Avatar
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    Lex....Right on the money....Those ARE very fluid....and we did have a GREAT talk about that at lunch, btw....Glad it spurred you on to the post....I can't add to it, just wanted to say, glad you posted it and, right as usual, Captain. <<and no, I am not sucking up to get a promotion, I already GOT one>>>
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    Aspiring Member Anthony Jake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirTrey View Post
    Lex....Right on the money....Those ARE very fluid....and we did have a GREAT talk about that at lunch, btw....Glad it spurred you on to the post....I can't add to it, just wanted to say, glad you posted it and, right as usual, Captain. <<and no, I am not sucking up to get a promotion, I already GOT one>>>
    i do hope thats not aimed at me trey! i could take offense

    but that bottom paragraph i don't totally agree with labels.. annoying things to satisfy the minds of others really, i mean, if people are happy to not label themselves why should they have to define who they are to satisfy someone elses curiosity? - things have become so diverse now that i think it is far easier not to have to label oneself totally; people see a label as a permenant thing.. when with sexuality and gender a label can continually expand and change.
    Last edited by Anthony Jake; 10-30-2007 at 07:19 PM. Reason: slight typo was annoying! - then i had to add something :)
    [SIZE="2"]Life is so strange
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    Where you're going to
    You can't be sure
    Of any situation
    Something can change
    Then you won't know
    You ask yourself
    Where do we go from here
    It seems so all too near
    Just as far beyond as I can see
    I still don't know what this all means to me
    [/SIZE]


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  16. #16
    Zr. Switch Syr_SwitchyGQ's Avatar
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    Wow... interesting question Lex. I have no clue why it seems to be easier for our side of the spectrum to hang loose with orientation versus the girls who often seem more uptight. Zen's theories make a lot of sense though. Actually, one of the first things I noticed/was surprised at is how many "gay" FtM's there are; that is, androsexual FtM's. Before I knew very many transguys, I always kind of assumed (this sounds ridiculous in retrospect) that transmen were basically butch lesbians who had decided life would be easier as a straight man. Then [obviously] I revised that opinion once I actually got to know some transguys (and figured things out for myself.)

    As to gender identity and sexuality being related and/or fluid, I kind of think that sexuality is like the tail of the gender kite... so... if your gender is grounded, so is your sexuality. If it changes, then what you are attracted to and what you call it may also (and invariably) change. Dunno... just some thoughts... I could way off base... Either way I need a now to de-cramp my brain.

  17. #17
    In the middle bi_weird's Avatar
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    Yeah it's funny how people get those so mixed up. Convenient for me, I guess, because I'm half gay and half trans, so the fact that one tends to suggest the other works for me. But it definitely doesn't have to be that way. Who I'm attracted to and who I am are very much separate. I think a lot of why it's such a big deal, for the MtFs, prolly is very much an American thing, that it's hard here for guys who are seen as feminine to get accepted, so to feel accepted among guys they have to hold on to all of their masculine traits possible.
    A thing about labels though. So many people are against labels, and I understand where they're coming from, but I'm a real big fan of 'em. I once knew this person, Robbie, who'd come out to their parents as bisexual, pansexual, transgender, and pangender on separate occasions. Or something like that. How confused would YOUR parents be after being told all of those things, including some ideas really foreign to straight cisgender people. I figure, for straight people, I'm willing to take labels (bisexual, transgender/confused) that they're likely to recognize and which fit me at a broad level. The thing is, those labels don't define me; I define them. I won't let myself get trapped by labels. When people ask me if being bi means I'm polyamorous , I correct them that some bisexuals are poly, and some poly-people (what's the plural?) are bi, but the two don't mean the same thing. Same for any other thing people try to attach to who I am.
    As for fluidity...I'm curious as to the opinions of the older people. At 22, I can tell you that both my gender and sexuality have small variations, but never long lasting, so that I figure I average out to nearly the middle on both scales. Has anyone found long term trends? Did your orientation or gender identity change at some point in your life? I'm just really curious, because I've heard before how things could be fluid, and I'd like to hear from anyone that's experienced that.
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  18. #18
    The Girl Next Door Sally24's Avatar
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    You should notice that even in the "straight" population, a woman's sexual orientation is not nearly as big a deal as a guy's. Most women and men will hang with a lesbian/bi or work with them, no problem. When we get to male oreintation it's a different matter. Males who are percieved as gay have a larger percentage of the population that feel "funny" about interacting with them. I don't know if it is an american thing or just a male thing. Many men are intigued by a bisexual women but put-off by a bisexual man. Go figure!
    Sally

  19. #19
    Swishy Pirate CaptLex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sally24 View Post
    Males who are percieved as gay have a larger percentage of the population that feel "funny" about interacting with them.
    I think you mean that straight men may feel funny about interacting with gay men - straight women generally love gay men.
    But why is the rum gone?! - Capt. Jack Sparrow [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl[/SIZE]

    Why is the rum always gone? - Capt. Jack Sparrow [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest[/SIZE]

    Why is all but the rum gone? No, the rum's gone too . . .
    - [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: At World End[/SIZE]

    [SIZE="3"]Lex on the Beach[/SIZE]. . . [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  20. #20
    Mr. Impossible SirTrey's Avatar
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    i do hope thats not aimed at me trey! i could take offense
    LOL....No, no.....I used to get teased about sucking up to the Captain to "get a promotion"....Pretty much started when Lex called Me "honey" "in a gay way".... So, no, the post was a reference to that.....But sucking up to the Captain is never a bad idea..... **Trey**
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    While my sexual orientation is clear (I like guys ), I'm not exactly sure what label it should get, since my gender isn't clearly male or female (on a scale of 1 (female) to 10 (male) I would position myself around 6 (slightly towards the male side).

    I'm pretty sure some people think I'm lesbian, mainly because the way I dress (gender neutral or male clothes) is something people associate with butch lesbians. But like most others here I couldn't care less about that.

  22. #22
    Swishy Pirate CaptLex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wanttobejoe View Post
    While my sexual orientation is clear (I like guys ), I'm not exactly sure what label it should get, since my gender isn't clearly male or female (on a scale of 1 (female) to 10 (male) I would position myself around 6 (slightly towards the male side).
    You're absolutely right, Joe. That's why I said we shouldn't necessarily limit ourselves by attaching sexual orientation tags (though for some people the tags fit and aren't limiting), because of the various combinations that can come out of both gender fluidity and sexual/romantic attraction.

    Quote Originally Posted by wanttobejoe
    I'm pretty sure some people think I'm lesbian, mainly because the way I dress (gender neutral or male clothes) is something people associate with butch lesbians. But like most others here I couldn't care less about that.
    Yeah, that goes with the territory. People have assumed I'm a lesbian all my life because they saw me as a masculine female, rather than a femmy guy. Even after I came out and explained to people that I like boys, some people still didn't get it.
    But why is the rum gone?! - Capt. Jack Sparrow [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl[/SIZE]

    Why is the rum always gone? - Capt. Jack Sparrow [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest[/SIZE]

    Why is all but the rum gone? No, the rum's gone too . . .
    - [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: At World End[/SIZE]

    [SIZE="3"]Lex on the Beach[/SIZE]. . . [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  23. #23
    Big Sister Nicki B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenFrost View Post
    Another could be that guys tend to be less high strung the girls.
    ..Right.... :hmmm:

    Quote Originally Posted by bi_weird View Post
    As for fluidity...I'm curious as to the opinions of the older people. At 22, I can tell you that both my gender and sexuality have small variations, but never long lasting, so that I figure I average out to nearly the middle on both scales. Has anyone found long term trends? Did your orientation or gender identity change at some point in your life? I'm just really curious, because I've heard before how things could be fluid, and I'd like to hear from anyone that's experienced that.
    I'd say my gender has moved, along a sliding scale, as I've released feelings and behaviours from where I kept them hidden/ignored.. (And I've been around more than twice as long as you... )

    Quote Originally Posted by Sally24 View Post
    Males who are percieved as gay have a larger percentage of the population that feel "funny" about interacting with them. I don't know if it is an american thing or just a male thing.
    I'd have said it was particular to the US - but Marla indicates above it still can be a problem in Europe???



    S'funny, in my experience, straight women are usually very comfortable with gay guys - they're no threat?
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  24. #24
    Male ZenFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wanttobejoe View Post
    While my sexual orientation is clear (I like guys ), I'm not exactly sure what label it should get, since my gender isn't clearly male or female (on a scale of 1 (female) to 10 (male) I would position myself around 6 (slightly towards the male side).
    Androphilic. I tend to avoid gay/straight distinctions because it makes things tricky to explain which is why the terms gynophilic and androphilic are useful. I'm gynophilic (attracted to women) and if you're attracted to men then you'd be androphilic.

    I do think that labels complicate things and don't work for everyone, but if you need a word to describe your sexual orientation without alluding to your gender, they're useful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicki B View Post
    ..Right.... :hmmm:
    Women tend to be more emotional than men, and a number of scientific studies have proved that. I was speaking ironically however because many MtFs are simply crossdressers and do not have the hormones and brain chemistry that causes that.
    Story of my life –>

  25. #25
    Swishy Pirate CaptLex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenFrost View Post
    Androphilic. I tend to avoid gay/straight distinctions because it makes things tricky to explain which is why the terms gynophilic and androphilic are useful. I'm gynophilic (attracted to women) and if you're attracted to men then you'd be androphilic.
    Good point, oh wise Guru, but (just to mix the pot a little ) . . . what if someone is attracted to males sexually and both males and females romantically (you may recall the thread about being homosexual and heteroromatic, for example)? Would that person still be androphillic in your opinion? Just wondering . . .
    But why is the rum gone?! - Capt. Jack Sparrow [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl[/SIZE]

    Why is the rum always gone? - Capt. Jack Sparrow [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest[/SIZE]

    Why is all but the rum gone? No, the rum's gone too . . .
    - [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: At World End[/SIZE]

    [SIZE="3"]Lex on the Beach[/SIZE]. . . [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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