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Thread: Is Sexual Orientation an Issue? (All Can Answer)

  1. #26
    Girl in disguise Emily Ann Brown's Avatar
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    WOW WHAT A THREAD !!!!


    Salandra....you ol' donkey's butt you, go get us some more rum !


    Sally touched on exactly what came to my mind....men LOVE to see two women in a porn video (whatever definition you use that's not a hetrosexual relationship sexually) but would freak out if suddenly the video featured two MEN engaged in sex with each other....WRONG WRONG WRONG they'd scream ! Oh give me a break guys...be CONSISTANT !

    For all the Brits that have replied so far.....you have had so many more centuries to get over your puritanical roots. Give us Americans another 300-400 years and we will have managed to pull our heads out of our collective butt....MAYBE.

    I will alienate myself from the M2F section with this next remark...you guys here have it so much more together than we have. I personally think it is because (A.) you know who you are and so be it (B.) you are men without the the detrimental adolescent effects of testosterone on your mental development. I should have been so blessed, I can only be a female suffering from testosterone poisioning at best.

    I will leave you now. All this thinking is way too deep....me head hurts now....Captain....more rum please sir.


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    Last edited by Emily Ann Brown; 10-31-2007 at 02:43 PM.
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  2. #27
    Swishy Pirate CaptLex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emily Ann Brown View Post
    For all the Brits that have replied so far.....you have had so many more centuries to get over your puritanical roots. Give us Americans another 300-400 years and we will have managed to pull our heads out of our collective butt....MAYBE.
    So true . . .

    you are men without the the detrimental adolescent effects of testosterone on your mental development.
    But honey, trust me . . . those adolescent effects are happening now!

    I will leave you now. All this thinking is way too deep....me head hurts now....Captain....more rum please sir.


    Emily Ann
    I'm going to join you, Emily Ann . . . here, I'll pour.
    But why is the rum gone?! - Capt. Jack Sparrow [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl[/SIZE]

    Why is the rum always gone? - Capt. Jack Sparrow [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest[/SIZE]

    Why is all but the rum gone? No, the rum's gone too . . .
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  3. #28
    Male ZenFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptLex View Post
    Good point, oh wise Guru, but (just to mix the pot a little ) . . . what if someone is attracted to males sexually and both males and females romantically (you may recall the thread about being homosexual and heteroromatic, for example)? Would that person still be androphillic in your opinion? Just wondering . . .
    Saying I'm gynophilic isn't the same as saying I'm heterosexual because 'philia' and 'sexual' aren't the same thing. Philia means love of or attraction to, and it doesn't have to be a sexual attraction. For instance, if someone is metrophilic that person loves poetry, it doesn't mean that person wants to have sex with a poem. I'm asexual and gynophilic, I'm attracted to women but not in a sexual way. Does that explain it well enough?
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  4. #29
    Zr. Switch Syr_SwitchyGQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenFrost View Post
    Saying I'm gynophilic isn't the same as saying I'm heterosexual because 'philia' and 'sexual' aren't the same thing. Philia means love of or attraction to, and it doesn't have to be a sexual attraction.
    While admittedly there are slight etymological differences between "philia" and "sexual," (sorry Zen, I'm not trying to pick on you specifically...) I still think that "philia" has rather sexual connotations. "Pedophilia," for example, I think has set the connotations for the suffix "philia," and has given it erm... strong sexual connotations, regardless of its original meaning. So if you told the average idiot that you were gynophilic or androphilic, they would probably respond with something like, "Is there medication or therapy for that?"

    I have the same problem with these terms as I do other obscure trans-related words (cisgendered comes to mind.) While they are fine and dandy for us to banter about on sites like this, they are useless in normal conversation and only serve to make us appear even stranger than people were expecting. Labels are great communication tools, until they splinter our diverse community into even more subgroups and require more explanation than simply explaining yourself from the beginning would have.

  5. #30
    Aspiring Member Anthony Jake's Avatar
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    sorry, minor rant here.

    I was contemplating opening a new thread on this, but ill just post it here because its sort of to do with orientation and sort of to do with identity, i'm not really fully sure of what it is about..

    All the alliances, groups etc tend to revole around GLBT now, because im bored and im thinking far too much for my head today, i have kind of come to a problem in my mind.. or a thought whichever..

    Now, evidentally people can be gay, lesbian, bi, straight (plus a combination of many things) right? Everyone has some sort of sexual orientation, no matter how diverse.. So, surely in a way as much as these groups offer support etc they are also still a way of drawing attention to some that any other orientation other than hetrosexuality is 'different' from the way that society tries to make us.. as in, when we are born, from that instant we are raised specifically to be like our assigned physical gender. When people find out they're having a girl they think pink, when they find out boy they think blue.. so instantly we're being cloned to be a specific way ; to obide by the way in which society has catagorized us.

    When people 'come out' in a way it is always taken as a statement, as wanting to be different.. why? Why should what were physically attracted to define us within society as being 'different', when really all we are doing is admitting to what we feel inside rather than shielding ourselfs from the judgement of society ; some people never admit to inner feelings for the fear of the way in which they will be viewed because of the way being a certain way had been percieved and portrayed by others and the media.. As we constantly try to make people see us as more 'normal' everything else is still trying to point out the differences.

    What i dont quite understand is, why is it GLB *T* , surely being trans is different to being gay or lesbian or bisexual? I think, because it is not 'normal' for society to admit to these things openly and as acceptingly as it should it has all be grouped together.. we dont have support groups for straight people.. because no one see's the need for that, because it has been preconcieved as 'normal'. Obviousl, you can have trans people who are straight, trans people who are bi ..etc etc... so, could it not then be labelled into its own catagory rather than saying being trans was based upon sexual attraction and who one is attracted to which, by grouping it in with the sexual attraction identity groups surely it is? Because being trans does not define sexual attraction, however we wish to identify ourselfs we do not all have the same people which we are sexually attracted to. So being trans is not based on sexual attraction, therefore why is it labelled as so?

    im hoping this isnt going to be taken in the wrong way, because it really isnt meant to be offensive to anyone.
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  6. #31
    Swishy Pirate CaptLex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenFrost View Post
    I'm asexual and gynophilic, I'm attracted to women but not in a sexual way. Does that explain it well enough?
    But I thought you loved me!

    Actually . . . yeah, that makes total sense to me. Probably because I have a friend who is asexual and he's been patient enough to explain a lot of stuff to me recently.

    Here's something else I'd like to throw into the pot for ideas and opinions, which I was discussing with a gay friend recently, and which may be seen as another piece of the fluid gender identity/fluid sexual orientation spectrum (or maybe not?):

    While gender identity and sexual orientation are separate issues, there is some overlap in that some cisgendered gay/lesbian/bisexual people are seen as "gender non-conforming" as much as some trans people are seen that way. In other words, specifically butch lesbians and effeminate gay men are seen as trying to emulate the opposite gender, instead of being seen as men or women who aren't comfortable with the macho, straight-acting or girly stereotypes. Anyone have thoughts on this?
    But why is the rum gone?! - Capt. Jack Sparrow [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl[/SIZE]

    Why is the rum always gone? - Capt. Jack Sparrow [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest[/SIZE]

    Why is all but the rum gone? No, the rum's gone too . . .
    - [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: At World End[/SIZE]

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  7. #32
    Big Sister Nicki B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheInnerMan View Post
    ..Because being trans does not define sexual attraction, however we wish to identify ourselfs we do not all have the same people which we are sexually attracted to. So being trans is not based on sexual attraction, therefore why is it labelled as so?
    I hope this isn't seen as a breach of netiquette, because it's suitably anonymised... Someone just said to me this:

    I wonder, if "we the people" (any country) won't give acceptence and equal rights to Gay people, a "known" group of people, then how can CDs expect acceptence?
    The answer to your question is not that we are necessarily similar - gender and sexuality are different, although in most of us, they overlap - but that we have to fight the same battles for recognition and acceptance?

    It makes sense to do it together - united we stand, divided, we're much easier to pick off?
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  8. #33
    Protector-from-Spiders Cai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptLex View Post
    While gender identity and sexual orientation are separate issues, there is some overlap in that some cisgendered gay/lesbian/bisexual people are seen as "gender non-conforming" as much as some trans people are seen that way. In other words, specifically butch lesbians and effeminate gay men are seen as trying to emulate the opposite gender, instead of being seen as men or women who aren't comfortable with the macho, straight-acting or girly stereotypes. Anyone have thoughts on this?
    I don't know about effeminate gay men (you'd have to ask them), but the butch lesbians I know are certainly not trying to be men. In fact, they get pissed when people confuse them with men, no matter how masculine they look.

    However, I also know that some people do feel that butch lesbians are trying to be like men. It's why people sometimes think that all lesbian couples are butch/femme - it's just two girls trying to "copy" the standard hetero format.

    What people think, and what the reality is, are two different things. (Grammar bells going off, but you know what I mean)
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  9. #34
    Swishy Pirate CaptLex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hi24home View Post
    I don't know about effeminate gay men (you'd have to ask them), but the butch lesbians I know are certainly not trying to be men. In fact, they get pissed when people confuse them with men, no matter how masculine they look.
    That's my point, Cai. Femmy gay men don't want to be women, and butch lesbians don't want to be men, but (clueless) people think they do - which is why they may be or appear to be (in a sense) "gender non-conforming", when in reality they're just being themselves and behaving whichever way they're comfortable. (not sure my grammar was any better )
    But why is the rum gone?! - Capt. Jack Sparrow [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl[/SIZE]

    Why is the rum always gone? - Capt. Jack Sparrow [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest[/SIZE]

    Why is all but the rum gone? No, the rum's gone too . . .
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  10. #35
    In the middle bi_weird's Avatar
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    It seems to me that the grouping of trans with LGB is very natural, albeit unfortunate because many straight people (here I use straight to mean cis-gendre as well) get confused by it. I tend to want groups for queers, not some long acronym which invariably leaves someone out, where a queer is anyone who has to come out. We're one big happy family of people who would've had their a$$es kicked back in high school. We want a lot of the same things, and face a lot of the same problems. Within the community, of course, there are different needs for different identities, but the expectation is (although this doesn't always happen as I know many of you have found) that people in the queer community are more likely to be accepting and understanding than straight people.
    But yeah, there are some straight people who are never gonna get it. Sometimes they're well meaning (I doubt my mother will ever understand that a femme gay guy and a MtF crossdresser are two different things. She's a wonderful person, but that's just too much out of her realm of experience.) but oftentimes they're not. The thing is, by living comfortably as ourselves, and being open to questions in safe situations, we're gonna convince people to think more about their preconceived notions and hopefully change some minds.
    I really was going somewhere with this, but I've lost what I was gonna say next. Just assume it was insightful and fascinating...
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  11. #36
    Male ZenFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutherie1379 View Post
    While admittedly there are slight etymological differences between "philia" and "sexual," (sorry Zen, I'm not trying to pick on you specifically...) I still think that "philia" has rather sexual connotations. "Pedophilia," for example, I think has set the connotations for the suffix "philia," and has given it erm... strong sexual connotations, regardless of its original meaning. So if you told the average idiot that you were gynophilic or androphilic, they would probably respond with something like, "Is there medication or therapy for that?"

    I have the same problem with these terms as I do other obscure trans-related words (cisgendered comes to mind.) While they are fine and dandy for us to banter about on sites like this, they are useless in normal conversation and only serve to make us appear even stranger than people were expecting. Labels are great communication tools, until they splinter our diverse community into even more subgroups and require more explanation than simply explaining yourself from the beginning would have.
    In the instance of pedophilia, yes it has sexual connotations. However, in many other instances it doesn't. The opposite of philia is phobia, gynophilia is a love of women, gynophobia is a fear of women. The same applies for everything from books to cats. If someone is a bibliophile people generally don't associate sexual connotations with that. From my experience, if people paid any attention in high school, they know that philia and sexual attraction are two different things. When I tell someone I'm gynophilic, I tell them it means attracted to women. I haven't run into any problems so far with that. One thing that helps is that phile and philiac sound different when spoken aloud. People are used to hearing pedophile, so gynophilic sounds different.
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  12. #37
    Big Sister Nicki B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bi_weird View Post
    We're one big happy family of people
    Would that that was always true..

    I really was going somewhere with this, but I've lost what I was gonna say next. Just assume it was insightful and fascinating...
    Tell me about it..

    Quote Originally Posted by ZenFrost View Post
    if people paid any attention in high school,
    Then they wouldn't attack paediatricians....
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  13. #38
    Male ZenFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheInnerMan View Post
    I was contemplating opening a new thread on this, but ill just post it here because its sort of to do with orientation and sort of to do with identity, i'm not really fully sure of what it is about..

    All the alliances, groups etc tend to revole around GLBT now, because im bored and im thinking far too much for my head today, i have kind of come to a problem in my mind.. or a thought whichever..

    Now, evidentally people can be gay, lesbian, bi, straight (plus a combination of many things) right? Everyone has some sort of sexual orientation, no matter how diverse.. So, surely in a way as much as these groups offer support etc they are also still a way of drawing attention to some that any other orientation other than hetrosexuality is 'different' from the way that society tries to make us.. as in, when we are born, from that instant we are raised specifically to be like our assigned physical gender. When people find out they're having a girl they think pink, when they find out boy they think blue.. so instantly we're being cloned to be a specific way ; to obide by the way in which society has catagorized us.

    When people 'come out' in a way it is always taken as a statement, as wanting to be different.. why? Why should what were physically attracted to define us within society as being 'different', when really all we are doing is admitting to what we feel inside rather than shielding ourselfs from the judgement of society ; some people never admit to inner feelings for the fear of the way in which they will be viewed because of the way being a certain way had been percieved and portrayed by others and the media.. As we constantly try to make people see us as more 'normal' everything else is still trying to point out the differences.

    What i dont quite understand is, why is it GLB *T* , surely being trans is different to being gay or lesbian or bisexual? I think, because it is not 'normal' for society to admit to these things openly and as acceptingly as it should it has all be grouped together.. we dont have support groups for straight people.. because no one see's the need for that, because it has been preconcieved as 'normal'. Obviousl, you can have trans people who are straight, trans people who are bi ..etc etc... so, could it not then be labelled into its own catagory rather than saying being trans was based upon sexual attraction and who one is attracted to which, by grouping it in with the sexual attraction identity groups surely it is? Because being trans does not define sexual attraction, however we wish to identify ourselfs we do not all have the same people which we are sexually attracted to. So being trans is not based on sexual attraction, therefore why is it labelled as so?

    im hoping this isnt going to be taken in the wrong way, because it really isnt meant to be offensive to anyone.
    The whole LGBTIQQ thing seems weird to lump together to me. The LGB and QQ might fit together, but the T and I are different. I think whoever coined the term thought it would be a good idea to put every minority that has to do with sex, sexual orientation, and gender in one big group. On one hand, it really bothers me that so many LGBT groups add the T but don't do anything for it. They have LGB support but not much for T. And even if they did, LGB issues are a whole different ballpark than T issues. The concept of coming out is some big and important step for most LGBs but for a Transexual post transition, coming out often isn't a goal at all. I wouldn't want everyone to know that I was born female. I'd tell the people closest to me, but I wouldn't be openly trans.

    BUT on the other hand, there's a legal side of things that the grouping makes sense. If you've been following the news, democrats are trying to get anti-discrimination rights for LGB people, but they've dropped the T. Many LGBT groups are fighting this.

    So on one hand it doesn't make sense to have the T in it when LGB issues are often so different, but on the other hand all LGBT people should be working together to fight for our rights. I thing Transgendered people should fight for Gay rights and Gay people should fight for Transgender rights. We should work together on this.
    Story of my life –>

  14. #39
    Big Sister Nicki B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenFrost View Post
    it really bothers me that so many LGBT groups add the T but don't do anything for it.
    But so few of us get involved - is it surprising? How much do you know about what matters to intersex people? :hmmm:
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    Swishy Pirate CaptLex's Avatar
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    ACE!!!! Nice to see you here, man!

    Sorry for the interruption, folks . . . please carry on.
    But why is the rum gone?! - Capt. Jack Sparrow [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl[/SIZE]

    Why is the rum always gone? - Capt. Jack Sparrow [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest[/SIZE]

    Why is all but the rum gone? No, the rum's gone too . . .
    - [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: At World End[/SIZE]

    [SIZE="3"]Lex on the Beach[/SIZE]. . . [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  16. #41
    Pangender Fluffball Tobie's Avatar
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    *blinks* There's another Canadian FtM? And nobody told me?!?
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  17. #42
    Swishy Pirate CaptLex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace Boy View Post
    another problem is that gay men are never portrayed as "bad" characters... this makes them seem different, not like normal people... where are some cool gay villains?? (especially for those who might have a hankering for bad boys, huh LOL)
    Oh man, I guess you're right - I can't think of one! The closest I can come up with off the top of my head is Capt. Jack - though he's not gay (but he is femmy) and he's not much of a villain, really - just an opportunist.

    Yes, we need gay bad boys.

    Quote Originally Posted by TierganShaw View Post
    *blinks* There's another Canadian FtM? And nobody told me?!?
    Okay, I'll confess . . . I've been hiding Ace in my cabin (didn't want anyone else having access to those lips), and I guess he finally escaped - must have found that nail file I keep under the mattress.
    Last edited by CaptLex; 11-01-2007 at 04:34 PM.
    But why is the rum gone?! - Capt. Jack Sparrow [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl[/SIZE]

    Why is the rum always gone? - Capt. Jack Sparrow [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest[/SIZE]

    Why is all but the rum gone? No, the rum's gone too . . .
    - [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: At World End[/SIZE]

    [SIZE="3"]Lex on the Beach[/SIZE]. . . [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  18. #43
    Pangender Fluffball Tobie's Avatar
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    I'm allowed to get giddy gayboy about knowing, seeing it typed and not just alluded to, another FtM in Canada makes me feel better among them Americans and UKers.
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    Mercy on me! I need a strong shot of rum after reading all these posts. I'm just the token straight guy (ahem, cough,cough-sorry, bad joke) here precisely because I wanted to know what the T in GLBT is all about.

    Most heteros understand GLB, but yes, the trans world is a major mystery. There are SO MANY variations and our poor heads are reeling. I'm not just talking about the homophobes either. You ladies and germs are so fluid (as a group) that it is like trying to grab a handful of morning mist.

    Most straights I know think that a butch Lesbian 'wants' to be the man and an F2M is just taking it one step further. The same goes with the effeminate gay male and the M2F CD'ers. That's a generalization, but most of us only know the most superficial outward appearances.

    I know that a lot of str8 guys like to watch girl on girl action because a) the female body is always fascinating to us, and b) they are imagining themselves in between them. Ergo, the man on man thing is 'icky'. They are not turned on by another man's body, nor do they wish to be in on it. I hope I have explained this right without offending anyone.

    What hetero women think, I don't presume to know. Drat it all.

    Labels aren't essential, but they do give a person a general impression. So label=good and label=bad, like most things in the real world there are many shades of gray between black and white.

    O.K., I'll shut up and drink my rum now, I've probably teed off everyone equally, but walking on eggshells isn't any fun either. I'm going to have to reread this thread several times and let the many perspectives soak in gradually.

    Thanks and peace to all.

  20. #45
    Male ZenFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TierganShaw View Post
    *blinks* There's another Canadian FtM? And nobody told me?!?
    Happyfish is in "Eh" country too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emily Ann Brown View Post
    Sally touched on exactly what came to my mind....men LOVE to see two women in a porn video (whatever definition you use that's not a hetrosexual relationship sexually) but would freak out if suddenly the video featured two MEN engaged in sex with each other....WRONG WRONG WRONG they'd scream ! Oh give me a break guys...be CONSISTANT !
    True, many men do love to see two women together. But the opposite is also true. Many, many women LOVE to see man on man action. Perhaps even more than the men who like lesbians. There's an entire industry of porn type materials featuring gay men that is geared specifically towards women.
    Story of my life –>

  21. #46
    New Member dhampir's Avatar
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    Was Jean Genet a 'gay bad boy'? If so, there is a nice long book devoted to him by Sarte.

  22. #47
    Silver Member AmandaM's Avatar
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    To American society at large, an MTF CDer is still a "faggot", usually worth pummeling, an FTM is a "dyke", not usually pummeled but still ostracized.

    A TV is either bi, straight or gay, irregardless of the clothes.
    A TS is by definition straight if MTF and likes men, or if FTM and likes women. This is because the body/identity matches the sexuality.
    Someone between TV and TS is more difficult. I think it depends on the extent of cross-gender identity. If more TV with a little bit of confusion, more than likely the old definitions apply. If more TS in identity, then the mirror applies.

  23. #48
    Big Sister Nicki B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amandachick View Post
    To American society at large, an MTF CDer is still a "faggot", usually worth pummeling, an FTM is a "dyke", not usually pummeled but still ostracized.
    Is there just one 'American society'? Or is it more just down to where you live?
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  24. #49
    Silver Member Lisa Golightly's Avatar
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    Shake it or take it... If it sends a shiver then its all cool to me.
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    dunno, maybe i have been doing a little growing up, but attraction based solely on physical appearance or attributes, just seems so shallow anymore... the more i settle into myself, the more the lines of sexual orientation become blurred. havent met anyone in a long time that really gets me hot.( 'cept Lovely Lisa of course ) i think that a wonderful personality would do more for me now than all the looks in the world, and i dont really think gender (physical or emotional) would be a factor!
    "you can have this nail file when you pry it from my cold ,dead hands."

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