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Thread: Is Sexual Orientation an Issue? (All Can Answer)

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony Jake View Post
    What i dont quite understand is, why is it GLB *T* , surely being trans is different to being gay or lesbian or bisexual?
    Others have touched upon this, but the reason why T is grouped with LGB is that we are all perceived as not being heteronormative by society, and we are all subject to discrimination (and worse) based upong that perception.

    As has been mentioned, femmy gay men and butch lesbian women are often perceived as being gender non-conformists (or even as being trans in some cases), and they do get discriminated against on that basis. Similarly, trans people are often perceived as being gay. There are numerous instances of trans women being assaulted by people calling them faggots and the like.

    So ultimately, we are natural allies (as are the genderqueer, queer, and questioning people that are sometimes included in the alphabet soup). And yes, it'd be simpler to just call us all queer, but some LGBTGQIQ people object to being labeled as "queer".

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptLex View Post
    I've been reading the umpteenth thread in the MtF section about whether it's "bad" or incorrect to label crossdressers gay. It's a never-ending discussion there, with people commenting on all sides of the issue, and it made me wonder why it doesn't seem to be much of an issue with us. I'm guessing it might have to do with the difference between most FtMs and MtFs.
    I agree, but I think that my reasoning is somewhat different than yours.

    There are far more male-bodied "crossdressers" partly for sociocultural reasons.

    The fact is that a male that wears any exclusively female garment is perceived as a crossdresser, whereas females have to dress pretty much entirely in male clothing before getting considered a crossdresser (and even then, not necessarily - no one I know in real life considers butch lesbian women that wear masculine clothing crossdressers).

    Ironically, the increased social stigma associated with males wearing female clothing probably contributes to the number of males that feel a need to do so. Also, the higher testosterone levels in males do tend to contribute to higher sex drives, which does tend to contribute to higher degrees of fetishistic behavior.

    So I think that there are a lot of reasons why MTF crossdressers are far more common, and it's hard to say what the results would be if we changed some of these factors.

    When the crossdressers are removed from the mix, I don't see such a difference. I can't recall ever seeing a thread on whether or not it's "bad" to label MTF people as gay on a more ts-specific forum. Honestly, it wouldn't even have occured to me to ask the question. More than half the women on the forum I post at most frequently are lesbian, bisexual, or otherwise queer-identified, and a lot of them are queer activists, so it's almost a meaningless question. I proudly march in the dyke march during gay pride week.

    However, the homophobia associated with being perceived as gay is certainly dangerous, and it contributes to hate crimes and discrimination against non-passable trans women.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptLex View Post
    In other words, it seems a lot of FtMs do not identify as crossdressers - and there may be a larger diversity in our group: bi-gendered, genderqueer, TG, TS, and people born female-bodied who don't quite feel female, but don't attach a label to themselves.
    Within the MTF spectrum, there also seem to be a lot of bi-gendered, genderqueer, TG, TS, and people born male-bodied who don't quite feel male, but don't attach a label to themselves. Some people who were originally male-bodied see their gender as very fluid. Some believe that they are a "third" gender, or reject binary gender. Others, not so much.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptLex View Post
    Anyway, my point is that our group here (which I believe is representative of transmasculine people everywhere) doesn't seem to have much of an issue with sexual orientation, other than to occasionally question whether we may be open to switching teams.
    I see lots of discussion among trans women about what their orientation is, or whether or not they are switching teams. But no one has an issue with it - they are just trying to figure it out. I've also participated in some similar discussions with cisgendered women.

    Now maybe we women do care more about labels. I don't know. I'll admit that I tend to be very interested in subjects like gender, queer theory, and feminist topics - and so are a lot of my cisgendered girlfriends. But then, I've met several trans guys at discussion groups about such subjects at a feminist book store, so I'm not so convinced that it's just us women that care.

    I think your belief about the transmasculine group here is the real key. This forum is not (IMO) representative of transfeminine people everywhere. The vast majority of the MTF that post here are crossdressers, or at least once considered themselves as such. On rare occasions (I know of at least 3, counting myself), a trans woman will hear that there is a forum for transsexual people here and will wander over to see if she can contribute (but most don't stay long). In general, I'd say that very few male-bodied genderqueer people and transsexual women ever even look at this forum - the name makes it sound irrelevant, and we are used to having our voices drowned out by crossdressers whenever we share a space with them.

    There are a *lot* of types of voices I never hear here, and the topics have remarkably little in common with certain other forums. I'd be real skeptical about anyone making any generalization about trans women and queer male-bodied individuals with gender issues based on this forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptLex View Post
    Also, Trey and I had a discussion recently about how fluid gender and sexuality are, and the numerous combinations that can come about because of this. Aren't we limiting ourselves if we apply sexual orientation tags to ourselves also? Isn't there an almost limitless combination between all the different gender roles and forms of attraction?
    That's all true, but I think that there are a lot of trans people (not just women) for whom their gender and sexual orientation is not that fluid, and they identify pretty exclusively with one of the two traditional genders. So for a lot of us, the traditional labels really do work well.

    Also, many people go through genderqueer phases as part of transition, and then later realize that they are becoming more comfortable in one of the traditional gender identities. The most talented trans woman feminist writer that I know of has written that she thought of herself as genderqueer at one point, and she was actually very out and proud about being genderqueer, but she's since become much more conventional in her outlook. I've heard variations on that story more than once (I myself went through a phase of my life where I considered myself genderqueer).

  3. #53
    Silver Member gennee's Avatar
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    [SIZE="3"]I think that many men confuse gender and sexuality. Gender and sexuality can be fluid as it is my my case. My gender has been much more fluid. I think there diversity in both FTM and MTF but it more natural with the former.

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  4. #54
    Swishy Pirate CaptLex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kehleyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptLex
    Aren't we limiting ourselves if we apply sexual orientation tags to ourselves also? Isn't there an almost limitless combination between all the different gender roles and forms of attraction?
    That's all true, but I think that there are a lot of trans people (not just women) for whom their gender and sexual orientation is not that fluid, and they identify pretty exclusively with one of the two traditional genders. So for a lot of us, the traditional labels really do work well.
    Okay, that's fair. I just wonder if a lot of us limit ourselves because we think we have to fit into one side or the other - not exclusively with gender identity, but also with regard to sexual orientation, as it relates to our gender identity. I wasn't really thinking in terms of genderqueer when I wrote that, but mostly about the possibility of being more open to different sexualities based on which "gender role" (for lack of a better term) we're more comfortable with. Hope I didn't lose you there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kehleyr
    Also, many people go through genderqueer phases as part of transition, and then later realize that they are becoming more comfortable in one of the traditional gender identities. The most talented trans woman feminist writer that I know of has written that she thought of herself as genderqueer at one point, and she was actually very out and proud about being genderqueer, but she's since become much more conventional in her outlook. I've heard variations on that story more than once (I myself went through a phase of my life where I considered myself genderqueer).
    I'd like to ask you for your definition of genderqueer - only 'cause I think different people use it differently. Personally, I identify as mostly male, but not 100%, but I don't like the term genderqueer for myself as I don't think it really applies to me. Just wondering how you define it. Or maybe that should be a topic for a whole other thread.
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  5. #55
    Still Single Stargirl's Avatar
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    Desire

    I think we should do the things that bring us the greatest pleasure. (without being harmful). Personally, I find it almost impossible to define my sexuality in standard terms. I DO have a male side. I find myself attracted to a Person. Genitalia : not a major focus. My best pleasure "tool" has been my soul, and mind. Genitals are servants, not masters. (at least in my book). People find me odd. I don't worry about that. I like what I like, and have the right to change directions at any time. So many people will never "get" it. I thought that I was a lesbian during the teen years, because I was attracted to "butch" girls, and I thought I was a gay male inside, because I was attracted to feminine guys. I also found myself getting giddy (good giddy) over crossdressing males, and pretty straight women, or women who dressed as males. But for different reasons. No way could I ever reveal this to most people back then. Pariah time, right ? Mrs. "Snicklebody" would have a field day gossiping about me as I walked to school.

    I take the best route that I have at the moment. I just BE. And extend respect to those who respect me. I am now 60, but feel 40. In a way, I am going thru another teen phase, it feels like.
    I am a weird older woman, and for now, it suits me fine.

  6. #56
    Swishy Pirate CaptLex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargirl View Post
    I take the best route that I have at the moment. I just BE. And extend respect to those who respect me. I am now 60, but feel 40. In a way, I am going thru another teen phase, it feels like.
    Nice post, Stargirl, welcome to the forum and thanks for your input. Would like to know a bit more about you - please do a intro post in the New Members section so we can get to know you a little better.
    But why is the rum gone?! - Capt. Jack Sparrow [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl[/SIZE]

    Why is the rum always gone? - Capt. Jack Sparrow [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest[/SIZE]

    Why is all but the rum gone? No, the rum's gone too . . .
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  7. #57
    Silver Member Joanne f's Avatar
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    I think that there are so many different reasons why males cross dress so you are going to get some that will be offended from being called gay and when to take into account that it is usually meant as an insult if some one calls you gay, don`t ask me why as i don`t know, i have been called gay many times so it doesnt bother me now.
    I know very little about Transmasculine things so please forgive me if i say the wrong thing as i am willing to learn from you all ,i know you do not want to be thought of as women and i would like to make it clear that i am not doing that but i am just wondering if it seems to be more acceptable in the general public`s point of view for a female to be Bi or Gay that it do`s for a male so there seems to be less witch hunting for females that want to dress and act like males, but saying that i think it is probably far more difficult for a FtM to be accepted by their family than it is for a MtF.
    And as far as i am with my gender i can only say that i have not got a clue and sexual orientation about the same.
    I think some where in my head i can also see why some TS don`t like to be thought of in the Cd thing because of this gay name calling but i am still working on that one, mind you i think you might think i have not done much work on the above but it is all a journey for me , ok going now before i drop myself in the pooy stuff.

    joanne

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    Quote Originally Posted by joanne f View Post
    I think some where in my head i can also see why some TS don`t like to be thought of in the Cd thing because of this gay name calling but i am still working on that one
    Well, speaking as one TS, I've very openly a gay woman.

    I don't like to be thought of as a "crossdresser" because I'm a woman, living and dressing as such. To call me a crossdresser is to fail to respect me as female.

    If I were to go out as a drag king, then I'd be crossdressing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptLex View Post
    I'd like to ask you for your definition of genderqueer - only 'cause I think different people use it differently. Personally, I identify as mostly male, but not 100%, but I don't like the term genderqueer for myself as I don't think it really applies to me. Just wondering how you define it. Or maybe that should be a topic for a whole other thread.
    I think that's a seperate thread. I recently went to a panel discussion on genderqueer, and they took 10 minutes trying to define "genderqueer" (and weren't entirely successful, IMO). As you say, it's a slippery term.

    FWIW, I would not consider you genderqueer - at least, not unless you told me that's how you identify.

    I don't think that merely having some elements of the other sex/gender makes you genderqueer, especially since I'm not big on stereotyping. At the genderqueer discussion I mentioned earlier, one woman identified herself as genderqueer despite a fairly typically female presentation (which is fine, gender isn't just about presentation). But when she tried to explain what made her genderqueer, she said things like she had a "warrior spirit", which really offended me and a lot of the women present - I found it very dismissive of women and very role-confining for her to imply that merely having a warrior spirit made you something other than a woman. I'm not saying she'd wasn't genderqueer (and I'd use gender neutral pronouns to refer to her, but she seemed okay with feminine ones), I'm just saying that I wasn't very happy with that explanation.

    I think that my liking sports or your liking to cook (hypothetically speaking) wouldn't make us genderqueer in the least.

    Though apparently, my liking sports is expected, because I'm lesbian ( ), so perhaps I need a better example.

    Anyway, given how much I tend to object to the definitions of being TS that I see offered by non-TS people, I'd really rather not try to be the first one to define genderqueer.

  10. #60
    Silver Member Joanne f's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kehleyr View Post
    Well, speaking as one TS, I've very openly a gay woman.

    I don't like to be thought of as a "crossdresser" because I'm a woman, living and dressing as such. To call me a crossdresser is to fail to respect me as female.

    If I were to go out as a drag king, then I'd be crossdressing.
    I respect you what ever you are and i would like to think that you also respect any one else what ever they are but i think that where the problem can be is unless some one pulled down they panties it could be hard to judged what they are so the wrong labels can some times be put on people by mistake and not disrespect.
    This is a Transmasculine thread so i do not want to disrespect them by taking this any further (sorry to be blunt)


    joanne

  11. #61
    Swishy Pirate CaptLex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joanne f View Post
    I know very little about Transmasculine things so please forgive me if i say the wrong thing as i am willing to learn from you all,
    That's cool, Joanne, that's all we ask.

    Quote Originally Posted by joanne
    i know you do not want to be thought of as women and i would like to make it clear that i am not doing that but i am just wondering if it seems to be more acceptable in the general public`s point of view for a female to be Bi or Gay that it do`s for a male so there seems to be less witch hunting for females that want to dress and act like males,
    In my experience, I would say it's probably about the same. All my life I've had people avoid me or look down on me because they assumed i was lesbian or because they thought I didn't accept my "place" as a female - obviously, not very enlightened or accepting people.

    Quote Originally Posted by joanne
    but saying that i think it is probably far more difficult for a FtM to be accepted by their family than it is for a MtF.
    I couldn't say, but I'm guessing it's probably about the same there too, Joanne. I know both FtMs and MtFs that have accepting people and non-accepting people in their lives - family, friends, co-workers, etc.
    But why is the rum gone?! - Capt. Jack Sparrow [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl[/SIZE]

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  12. #62
    Swishy Pirate CaptLex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kehleyr View Post
    I think that's a seperate thread. I recently went to a panel discussion on genderqueer, and they took 10 minutes trying to define "genderqueer" (and weren't entirely successful, IMO). As you say, it's a slippery term.
    Yeah, I also think a separate thread would be a better idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kehleyr
    FWIW, I would not consider you genderqueer - at least, not unless you told me that's how you identify.
    Cool . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Kehleyr
    I don't think that merely having some elements of the other sex/gender makes you genderqueer, especially since I'm not big on stereotyping. At the genderqueer discussion I mentioned earlier, one woman identified herself as genderqueer despite a fairly typically female presentation (which is fine, gender isn't just about presentation). But when she tried to explain what made her genderqueer, she said things like she had a "warrior spirit", which really offended me and a lot of the women present - I found it very dismissive of women and very role-confining for her to imply that merely having a warrior spirit made you something other than a woman. I'm not saying she'd wasn't genderqueer (and I'd use gender neutral pronouns to refer to her, but she seemed okay with feminine ones), I'm just saying that I wasn't very happy with that explanation.
    Yeah that doesn't make sense to me either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kehleyr
    I think that my liking sports or your liking to cook (hypothetically speaking) wouldn't make us genderqueer in the least.
    Agreed

    Quote Originally Posted by Kehleyr
    Though apparently, my liking sports is expected, because I'm lesbian ( ), so perhaps I need a better example.
    Haha, or my liking to decorate - but that's only 'cause I'm a gay boy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kehleyr
    Anyway, given how much I tend to object to the definitions of being TS that I see offered by non-TS people, I'd really rather not try to be the first one to define genderqueer.
    Well, you can tell me about when you considered yourself so - if you'd like - so I can understand your thinking then.
    But why is the rum gone?! - Capt. Jack Sparrow [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl[/SIZE]

    Why is the rum always gone? - Capt. Jack Sparrow [SIZE="1"]Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest[/SIZE]

    Why is all but the rum gone? No, the rum's gone too . . .
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  13. #63
    Zr. Switch Syr_SwitchyGQ's Avatar
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    This is perhaps off-topic and random, but on a form recently, I was asked what my gender and orientation were. I answered:

    gender: FtM
    orientation: Debatable


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    Quote Originally Posted by TobiasGJ View Post
    This is perhaps off-topic and random, but on a form recently, I was asked what my gender and orientation were. I answered:

    gender: FtM
    orientation: Debatable

    my usual comment to orientation is no comment, or N/A as most of the time its no ones business

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by TobiasGJ View Post
    This is perhaps off-topic and random, but on a form recently, I was asked what my gender and orientation were. I answered:

    gender: FtM
    orientation: Debatable

    That's a good answer, I should try that sometime.
    Story of my life –>

  16. #66
    New Member MinaB's Avatar
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    Absolutely not. I've gone from straight to bi to semi-gay back to bi and now back to straight and including MtFs, or as I like to call it, trans-lesbian. I don't even bring up who I "go for" anymore because it's so fleeting. The only thing I ever find important in going out with someone is "can I see myself with this person?" and that usually takes a long time to decide. I'm very picky :P

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptLex View Post
    Well, you can tell me about when you considered yourself so - if you'd like - so I can understand your thinking then.
    If you (or someone) starts a thread on this, I'll try to participate (time permitting - school starts back up soon).

    But in all honesty, my "genderqueer" phase was a long time ago, so my memory of what I really thought at the time is somewhat hazy. Oh, and I was an idiot back then when it came to gender topics. Anyway, I don't think I was ever really genderqueer - I think for me it was just a coping technique that I used for a while (for various reasons, which I'd be happy to discuss, but probably more in private).

    Quote Originally Posted by joanne f View Post
    I respect you what ever you are and i would like to think that you also respect any one else what ever they are but i think that where the problem can be is unless some one pulled down they panties it could be hard to judged what they are so the wrong labels can some times be put on people by mistake and not disrespect.
    I'm referring more to word usage in online forums like this one (where it's not at all hard to find posts and threads referring to TS people as "crossdressers").

    I'm not too concerned about what I'm called in person. I've never been called a CD in real life - all of my coworkers, classmates, etc, just assume I'm a natal female.

    Quote Originally Posted by joanne f View Post
    This is a Transmasculine thread so i do not want to disrespect them by taking this any further (sorry to be blunt)
    I don't think this is necessarily a gender-specific conversation. Trans people (men and women) wear clothing that is congruent with their gender identity and eventually (in many cases) their phenotypical sex. I certainly know trans guys who would view putting on a dress as crossdressing, whereas wearing men's clothing is just dressing in accordance with their gender.

  18. #68
    Silver Member kerrianna's Avatar
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    Oh, can I stumble around here too?

    Let's see....where to start? This thread has kind of wheeled all over the place like a car with summer tires on a snowy slope (hey, that's the definition of my life! ), so maybe I'll just throw a couple of pennies in.

    I'm going through a Questioning with a capital Q phase right now, so that means I'm putting things to my forehead and seeing what sticks.

    The issue of sexual orientation is certainly one of them. I probably would have described myself earlier in life as a hetero-male who was bi-curious. But as I recognize more about my gender identity and gain a clearer idea of the real kind of person I am, I realize that what I considered to be bi-curious is more an expression of what I now see to be my 'hetero-female' side. In some ways I'd say I am actually a hetero-female who was bi-curious. I'm also pondering the concept of being 'pansexual', because in some ways that describes me better. Although I'm not sure if I would include a male-male attraction as part of my thinking, so I'm not sure if that would make me pansexual.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pansexuality

    Now the fact that I can consider a romantic or sexual attraction to men, while I am still perceived by most of the world as a male, may lead the average person to label me as gay. I don't identify that way, primarily because my interest in men is strictly from my hetero-female identity. But most people won't understand that. Most people dont understand transgenderism at all, let alone bisexuality. It is a heteronormative world.

    As far as the difference between FTM and MTF labelling and concern about it, I believe a lot of it comes from good old fashioned patriarchal homophobia. I think what it really boils down to on an elemental level is power.

    Men who would lord power over their gender peers call 'weaker' males 'gay', 'queer', 'homo', 'girl'!...as if all those identities makes you a weak and conquered man.

    FTMs are raised with an acute awareness of the power structure and learn to operate to the best of their abilities in it. I think they need to learn inner strength and self belief early, because it's pretty obvious that there is a glass ceiling EVERYWHERE. I do notice a difference in approach between the average MTF and FTM. The FTMs are generally more stoic and quietly determined. The MTFs are often more nervous and excitable. I think this all comes from our backgrounds in this patriarchal heteronormative society.

    I know for myself that growing up as a 'weak' male has lead to me to be hyperaware of how much a target I appear to the power males in the society. Whether I am gay or not, am female or not, am TG or not...sometimes it doesn't matter. It's all ammunition for abusive people.

    I'm not saying FTMs dont have similar fears, I think they are better at supporting each other and have learned ways to move through the world more quietly. Not that they want to remain quiet.


    And I AM a crossdresser. I still put on guy clothes for the rest of the world. You'd think they'd label me queer for that. Fortunately I still pass as a guy ok, judging by all the sirs and misters I get . But I am getting more and more WTF looks so I guess my CDing skills are getting worse.

    Hahaha...I'm not MTF...I'm WTF!
    (now that is a good description of genderqueer maybe)
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  19. #69
    Quartermaster DanielMacBride's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kerrianna View Post
    Hahaha...I'm not MTF...I'm WTF!
    I LOVE IT!!! I am not FTM - I'm just a TMF (tough mother...)

    Well said kerrianna, your point about the way we are raised is very true and I have to say I have also made the same observation about MTFs being more nervous and excitable and the FTMs being more stoic and supportive of each other (no brickbats anyone please!! It's just my own personal observation from my own personal experience) and I have to agree it has a LOT to do with how we are raised and how society sees us and what that heteronormative society expects and teaches us.

    Daniel
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  20. #70
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    I say we break out the rum.

    Lanore

  21. #71
    Adventuress Kate Simmons's Avatar
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    Wow, a lot of big words on this thread. Actually, Kez's WTF sums it up for me. The key to to get above society's programming which most of us are doing and the power of communication is amazing. In my case, I'm no longer de-powered by being a MTF CD. If someone tries to down grade me by calling me some "name", it only makes me stronger and it's a win/win situation for me. The beauty of all of you folks here is that you are pure gold.
    Second star to the right and straight on till morning

  22. #72
    Senior Member charllote34's Avatar
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    Hi alll my first post in your little world. Ok this is a great thread and in reply to a comment about how differant it is from being from the uk thats just pants !! i have travelled all over the world and people are people no matter where they come from .America like the Uk is a free country and i see nothing in the uk that forces people to act in a certain manner , in fact the more you try and control people the more they rebel!
    Right Sexuality .Its interesting how many MTF are hetrosexual , Speaking from personal experiance i enjoy all the male aspects of my life and i enjoy sticking my painted toe into the female side of life from time to time .I certainly prefer to be with GG than men i feel more comfortable round girls always feel like men are some kind of a threat weird i know just how i feel .I feel certain that most MTF feel like that would be interesting to know how many FTM ( this is confusing!) like male sports and male things and whats the percentage that are straight i.e sleep with genetic males and prefer the company of men to women
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  23. #73
    Lingering Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by charllote34 View Post
    I feel certain that most MTF feel like that would be interesting to know how many FTM ( this is confusing!) like male sports and male things and whats the percentage that are straight i.e sleep with genetic males and prefer the company of men to women
    A lot of the FTM individuals who post here are male-identified trans men, and so being sexually attracted to men would make them gay, not straight.

    Though part of the point of this thread is that some people don't want to be confined by such narrow labels...

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kehleyr View Post
    A lot of the FTM individuals who post here are male-identified trans men, and so being sexually attracted to men would make them gay, not straight.

    Though part of the point of this thread is that some people don't want to be confined by such narrow labels...
    Exactly Kehleyr.....although some of us Identify as straight MEN too, i do!

  25. #75
    Senior Member charllote34's Avatar
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    Hi Ace , thanks for the kind reply!! I meant a female to male crossdresser .I am a straight male that crossdressers and i am interested if there is female version of this , Re sports i was talking from a male point of view , do any FTM go to the footie ( soccer) how many watch males playing sports the same way i would in drab .How many hetrosexual women crossdress the same way that i would . Please i am not here to judge and i would share a pint with any of you ( or some rum!) just nice to meet different people , its what makes life fantastic !
    Hugs to you all charllote xxxx
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