Are crossdressers insulting to women?

[LindaMarie]

I'm married to a wonderful woman who, despite her attempts to be understanding about my crossdressing, wishes the whole thing would just go away.

There are a lot of reasons for her not being accepting, but here's one I'd like to hear your opinions about.

My wife thinks that my crossdressing is insulting to women. There's so much more to being a woman than the clothes and makeup, but by thinking that clothes and makeup make us more feminine, we reduce women to creatures to whom fashion and appearance are everything and are the essence of being a woman. Our attempts at looking like women is a parody of what real women look like and a gross exaggeration of what women think is important.

My knee jerk reaction is probably what a lot of yours is: one of the reasons we like to dress is because we love women and love how they look. If anything, there's an aspect of jealousy in some of our dressing. There's also an aspect of jealousy when we see a beautiful woman and think "she's beautiful" and "I would love to be able to wear that outfit and look beautiful, too."

I'm trying to get past instant reactions. I can understand part of what my wife is saying. Most women I know don't spend a lot of time obsessing over their appearance. They're too busy doing really important things like working, taking care of children, trying to keep in touch with friends and family, trying to figure out how to make the world better and probably spending too much time on taking care of other people and not enough time taking care of themselves.

Many of us crossdressers invert this by having a somewhat selfish attitude to crossdressing. We don't get dolled up so we can make a dish for the person down the street who's not feeling well or visiting an older relative in a nursing home. We mostly do it for the thrill (sexual or, for many older cds, a different kind of relaxed / energized feeling).

Still, I get that being a woman is not about finding that perfect pair of pumps and sending notes to girlfriends telling them how their new outfit is sooooo cute. But, there are aspects of being a cd that are. I don't think that just because we emphasize what we think are the fun things about femininity that that makes what we do insulting to women.

What do you think?

I'm also really interested in what real women think about this whole argument. As my wife has pointed out, the attitudes of other crossdressers may be just a bit biased.

[Jessika Paige]

i consider mine to be emulation of that which i adore. i love women to the extent that i am disssapointed that i am not one. i have always been jealous of women, in a good way. imitation is the highest form of flattery, no?

[Sarah Rabbit]

They say 'Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery'. Perhaps your wife feels that CD's are invading her territory. Try and get your wife to visit here as a guest, and see what motivates us. She may learn a thing or two.

Sarah R.

[charllote34]

I can understand if some GG, s would get upset but there is absolutley no malice in what i or we do , and certainly no offence is planned xx

[Jocelyn Quivers]

i consider mine to be emulation of that which i adore. i love women to the extent that i am disssapointed that i am not one. i have always been jealous of women, in a good way. imitation is the highest form of flattery, no?

You said it perfectly.

I can somewhat relate on how some GG's show contempt for CD's. Or even engaging in things that are normal for GG's such as shaving legs. Which I have been told by several GG's that they don't approve of GM's doing that. I guess to some it's taken as an insult, or that womens clothes are sacred for GG's only and not meant for GM's regardless of the intent for wearing them.

[windycissy]

How do you gently tell your wife that this isn't about her?

[Pippilotta]

Au contraire: no greater compliment could be paid to women. However, let's face it: we are women in women's splendour, without menstruation, hot flashes, migraines, cellulitis, and the cultural need to be up to a 18 year old's physical standard. So, yes, there might well be some understandable resentment, although it likely lies on a rather unreasoned emotional level.

[Jackie67]

Then we on the other hand do women the way that they dress an insult to men, I say this because as I was in church today I counted only Three women in skirts or dresses, I know that when I was growing up I was taught to be dressed in an appropriate manner I never in my younger years saw so many women wearing pants not pant suits but frayed and ragged jeans to church, but then I guess GOD doesn't really care what you look like when in church, at least be respectable to others.
I know I will get a lot flack on this but, that's what this forum is for to get other oppinions.

[Ruth]

It's a tough one to counter because it's based on feelings rather than hard facts.
Though I wonder if your wife has at some time seen a CDer (possibly a drag queen on stage) who was mocking or ridiculing some form of feminine mannerism. Something like that might have offended her very much and she may carry this over into feelings about CDers in general.
Just a thought.

[lisa_e_love]

I honestly and sincerely believe that the feeling of insult is more of an invasion of territory than an actual offense and, as such, has more to do with cultural notions of gender boundaries than anything else.

Reading on the board, a lot of SOs seem to get really irked if their CDing partner shaves his legs. I have also been in a relationship with a girl who was semi-supportive but when I shaved my legs once she said, "Don't do that again." This is kind of a case in point - body hair is a pretty personal thing. I figure that (and I realize this is a pretty odd parallel), just as many women (and men, including myself) demand abortion rights because they want control over their bodies, men should be able to control their own bodies to the extent that they should be allowed to decide if they want hair growing on their legs or not.

The real "problem" is that it treads into feminine territory - not that it mocks or degrades women in anyway. By shaving your legs you are participating in a time-honored tradition of that GG, her mother and all the women in her life. They shave their legs. They complain to each other about razor burn. They joke about how they haven't been shaving for a few days so they have hairy man legs and need to wear long pants to hide them until they get around to shaving them again. You enter into a world that the GG views as "women only."

So, I don't think it's that CDing necessarily degrades or puts down women (obviously if done with bad intent, anything can degrade women) it's just that it kind of tampers with the feeling of exclusivity that many women associate with all things feminine.

[Echo Logical]

Are Glamour, Vogue, Cosmopolitan Insulting to women?

Seriously, their primary focus is on getting just that right look, and that cute outfit, and how to give your man just what he wants in bed, among other things that have very little to do with a womans day to day life. I have never seen a harried woman, wearing sweats and no makeup on the cover of those magazines.

If those magazines, with there primary focus on such a small portion of what it means to be a woman, are not insulting a woman, then why would a man trying to explore some of those same things be insulting?

Yes, we are limited by our biology and cultural norms to just how much we can experience what it is like to be a woman, but I do not believe that our interest in exploring the aspects that we can are in themselves insulting.

Is CD'ing insulting to women? I would have to say no.
Are some women insulted by CD'ing? obviously the answer is yes.

[StacyCD]

If men wearing women's clothing are an insult to women then I guess women wearing men's clothing must be an insult to men. The logic is the same so if it is valid in one case then it must be valid in the other as well. However, clearly most women wearing pants are not trying to 'impersonate' a man, whereas most often when a man is wearing women's clothing they are trying to impersonate a woman. However, if they aren't just clothes then the next time she wear pants, suits, ties, tell her she is looking too manly and you are insulted. This probably won't win you many sympathy points so don't really say it as if you mean it!

[Nicki B]

Not in my experience (of meeting a lot of genetic women)?

Fascination, interest, friendliness, occasionally jealousy - but they do appreciate that we understand more about their world and share in it? It's also quite usual for genetic women to be protective of us?

Of course the big line is crossed when it's a partner - that's a whole other ball game, where it's perfectly understandable that we're encroaching on their perceived space and roles and potentially looking too good while doing it..

[immike]

If men wearing women's clothing are an insult to women then I guess women wearing men's clothing must be an insult to men. The logic is the same so if it is valid in one case then it must be valid in the other as well. However, clearly most women wearing pants are not trying to 'impersonate' a man, whereas most often when a man is wearing women's clothing they are trying to impersonate a woman. However, if they aren't just clothes then the next time she wear pants, suits, ties, tell her she is looking too manly and you are insulted. This probably won't win you many sympathy points so don't really say it as if you mean it!

I love to wear womens clothes,especially pantyhose,it feels heavenly

[Marcie Sexton]

I can't speak for the others, but I personally dress to suit myself...As I would if I were a GG, or perhaps some day as a transitioned girl...

But doesn't dressing as a woman or atleast mimicking their GG's or one they have seen during their life time the highest form of flattery...

Just my personal thought...

[Joy Carter]

Maybe some of us are women in a man's body, and feel more comfortable with our selves by dressing as women.

Ive heard a couple of GG's make statements, relating to their displeasure upon seeing me a Joy. That's on them, and in no way affects how I feel about myself.

[Marla S]

I think Lisa hit the nail on the head:

"The real "problem" is that it treads into feminine territory"

that is not an insult, but can be seen as an offense and competition.

[Rita B]

I remember telling my lesbian daughter about my desire to transition as a woman and express my feminine side. She came down on me like a ton of bricks. Her mother and I had been divorced for some time so we were not close at all. Anyways, she told me that I knew nothing about being a woman, about what women go through, and that I was insult to womanhood. We have not spoken since. That was over 20 years ago!

[Melinda G]

I think it bothers some women that we can look as good as they do, or better. It also demystifys women, and you begin to realize that when you see a pretty woman, much of what you are looking at is just window dressing. Short skirts, high heels, and nylons? No big deal. Hey, I can do that too.

[Priscilla Ann]

I think it bothers some women that we can look as good as they do, or better. It also demystifys women, and you begin to realize that when you see a pretty woman, much of what you are looking at is just window dressing. Short skirts, high heels, and nylons? No big deal. Hey, I can do that too.

I think this is true also, Melinda. How much trouble can I get into by agreeing with you?

[Stephenie S]

Women don't get insulted by your wearing skirts and dresses. Many of them find it kinda cute and endearing.

Women get insulted when you get ALL dolled up and think that you are being feminine. You aren't being "feminine" at all. Dressing up doesn't make you feminine. Clothes don't make the MAN, and clothes don't make the WOMAN.

Women get insulted when you seem to think that the superficial accutraments are what is important about being a woman. Real women know that they are feminine no matter WHAT they are wearing, and they can get miffed when you imply that the CLOTHES are what is important to femininity.

Real femininity comes from within. Real women know this and they want you to know it also.

JMHO

Stephie

Let me try to put it this way.

Women hear you say, "I love women and I want to emulate them."

Then you get all dressed up, heels, stockings, girdles, wigs, makeup, slips, dresses, and nails.

Women think, "Wait a minute!" "If you really want to emulate women, why aren't you kinder, more nurturing, more understanding, gentler, and empathetic?"

"What's with the clothes?"

"Is that all you think of me?"

Whence cometh the insult.

[jennifer41356]

Women don't get insulted by your wearing skirts and dresses. Many of them find it kinda cute and endearing.

Women get insulted when you get ALL dolled up and think that you are being feminine. You aren't being "feminine" at all. Dressing up doesn't make you feminine. Clothes don't make the MAN, and clothes don't make the WOMAN.

Women get insulted when you seem to think that the superficial accutraments are what is important about being a woman. Real women know that they are feminine no matter WHAT they are wearing, and they can get miffed when you imply that the CLOTHES are what is important to femininity.

Real femininity comes from within. Real women know this and they want you to know it also.

JMHO

Stephie

I agree with what Stephanie says. I have been to CD meetings and the girls there sit like men use the restroom like men and made no real effort to act like a lady accpet for wearing women clothes....I try to spend most of my free time as a lady and trying to act like a lady...the women I have met seem to like me and accept as a woman..i have been invited to places with female friends, I had one friend who asked me to go shopping with her to buy a new dress and we were at Nieman Marcus trying on 300.00 dresses and sharing the same changing room...truly one of my highlights

[goofus]

I think only the GG's can answer this one ...

[Dee Talbot]

I think only the GG's can answer this one ...

Therefore, I shall.

I think that crossdressing in itself is not inherently insulting to women. I can see, as has been previously posted, that many CD's are dressing because they love and idealize women. So, in the generic sense, no crossdressing is not insulting.

HOWEVER...........

There are some CD's whose intentions may be pure, but whose carry out can be incredibly insulting.

Examples:

Messages that we GG's aren't living up to our potential if we aren't dressed a certain way are horribly insulting. We can't always wear what some CD's fantasize about when they think of feminine garb. Practicality keeps me from wearing a lot of the things that my CD SO wears. I am no less of a woman because of that.

Mimicry that misses the mark and is actually a hurtful parody can and is insulting. I know that again this is a fantasy ideal, but sometimes I see what some CD's feel is feminine, and it doesn't come across to me (and other GG's) as flattery. It says to GG's that you see us as cartoonish parodies and we may feel mocked rather than flattered.

Implying that only by having sex with a man can a CD truly feel like a woman is insulting. I have many women friends who have never been with a man. Either by choice because they are Lesbians, or because they never had the opportunity and probably won't. To say that a woman is only a woman if she has been sexual with a man is HIGHLY insulting.

Let me clarify this by saying a few things. I dont believe that most CD's mean to be insulting if they fall into these (or other) categories that GG's find insulting. I don't feel that any insult is intentional, which is why I usually won't call CD's on the insult. I think a lot of this is wrapped up in that dreaded pink fog. I am sure that most of the CD's who are wrapped up in said fog are perfectly reasonable and pleasant people when not befogged.

I agree with some that there can be "territory" issues. But, honestly, unless you suddenly buy some implants and lose an appendage.....we really can't compete. Because as good and passable as some of you may look, when the skirt comes off.....I have something you don't that will always trump you when it comes to the territory issues (please take this statement in the vein it was intended.....smile a little ladies)

Consider also, wives (such as that of the OP) may have reservations because they associate CD'ing with Transvestism as personified by RuPaul and others. While I think RuPaul is a hoot, she is a little over the top and that can be insulting to some women. That isn't what GG's are really about.

Unless you are either Cher or Bette Midler. And they are in a class all their own

So, easy answer, no Cd'ing isn't insulting. Complex answer, some of the behaviors can be.

[Edwina]

I tend to go with the "....sincerest form of flattery" way of thinking but I would also like to think that when I am fully dressed I tend to be more feminine in my movements and way of thinking.
Of course I can think that way too when I am at the mall in drab and look at all the beautiful clothes and shoes.

Edwina