Denigration of Men

[Nyx]

I think this is one of the things that contributed to my desire to be a crossdresser. I have this feeling, which I know many other men share, that we are being denigrated, as men, in the modern society. Nowadays, it seems men have a bad image, in general. After the liberation of women, everything has been done to encourage girls, and make us see their positive qualities, but not much was done for men.

I feel that the image our society projects of men, is one of flat, dull, two-dimensional persons with very basic personalities. Men are mostly portrayed as basic people with basic instincts, and no sophistication. Men have no intuition and no creativity. This is the image I get, that men are boring, and it makes me sad.

I have seen multiple ads on TV here, for various products, where couples are portrayed. Generally, its some little situation, where they are looking for something, or they have a problem, and the woman will find the solution first, and give some look to the guy... The "You know I'm smarter than you are" type of look. You might not think much of it, but I think it contributes to the problem.

I got this image since I was a little boy. Adults saw little girls as being sage and innocent beings, and needing protection. Little guys were just trouble. I always had problems in elementary school. I was constantly being attacked by other kids for some reason, and I defended myself. And since I was always having problems, I obviously was the trouble kid to them.

What I hate the most is to see angry women making a bad portrait of men in general. They're all the same, they're all perverts, men are the cause of violence in our society. Blah blah blah. I think women are very perfectly capable of being perverse and invasive beings themselves.

This is my rant. You might not share my opinion, but it has some foundation nevertheless. Might it not be possible that one of the reasons many of us crossdress is because we have difficulty accepting our male side, because we are not encouraged to accept it? I know many people here hate their "drab" side.

[azure]

this is a sociology students dream topic for an exam essay, however, I'll simply give my opinion. `It seems men are now reaping the harvest of their deeds against women, through the many many years of inequality and abuse, the prejudice and corruption of females, and sadly it continues in many new distorted guises. And the fruit that men are now seen for what they are, and have demonstrated themselves as being. A classic example today in front of me, a guy and his girlfriend were arguing, his answer was to excalate to viollence and throw her at a car, and aggresivley man handle her, while shouting at her YOU C--t etc etc, so I got out of my car between them to shield her and faced him down, he didnt want to take me on so he backed down, but continued using the c word at her through the journey. Theres more to that, I sat there and did my job, watching him incase he tried to hurt her again, all the time thinking, well, there goes yet another nail in the coffin of men. Men are an inefficient, badly designed, out dated, lacking in any useful features or qualities, and women are simply far more evolved, truth hurts doesnt it. I really feel that men are becoming surplus to requirement, I know thats a very subjective statement, but sadly I feel theres truth in it. Another sad thing, is that men are so high on their own hype that, theyd rather perish than solve the problem.
What have we seen in resent years, high profile performers promoting empowermnt in women(spice girls, shania twain, bonnie raitt) saying to girls, Its great to be a girl, its great to have choices and take control of your life and shape your destiny. Theyve provided very powerful emotive messages and role models.
What have men done........continued down the same dark road(preferably as long as your on the other side of the street from a woman, because if your a man then your probably a rapist) its a sad world isnt it, when youve got to be told by public information ads, to "walk on the opposite side of a street from a woman", soon there will probably be places that men cannot walk at all. Need I really go on about the proliferation of porn and erotic imagery available on ie. sky, hmmmm let me think, did women think of that or..........oops that was men too oh dear. Oh and the rise in sex crimes, linked to the proportionate availability of said porn?.....er our survey said a huge 95% YES...oh dear. I wont go on about all the other evil acts that men are and have been responsilble for, suffice to say that on a judgment day deal it wouldnt be looking good. SO come on guys for Fs sake switch on, though I feel its simply too late for salvage.
Just to say, that I got that girl away , safley to her friends, she' was shaken, and very scared, as we drove she kept repeating " I HATE ALL MEN!!!" I felt it was pointless saying anything, so gave her my bar of chocolate and made sure her friends picked her up.

[celeste26]

Well some of the feminist literature claims that marriage is consentual rape, and while I cant go that far, the issue of the use of violence against women is a real issue that needs careful consideration. We here at the MtoF forum are hardly to blame for this, to a person here, we adore women and would not ever consider violence. But the number of rapes continues to grow.

Going back to my post about masculine traits, men in general see women as tools, as a means to some end. As "possessions" they have no rights, hammers dont ever talk back to the person who wields it. It is just used then left alone until it needs to be used again. In many ways we see clothes in the same light, something to be used for an end, whatever end that may be will vary but still not an end in itself.

Women generally see the world in terms of relationships instead of usefullness. Something that has a relationship with us is part of us, to reject a person would be rejecting part of us also. Can you imagine a tool feeling rejected? No of course not.

So much of our society deals with objects, tools to use, things to own, somehow(?) makes a person better. Ever seen the signs about "he who has the most toys wins." Just another notch on the stick. Forget about having relationships, they can get sticky and complicated they cause pain and nobody wants pain.

Part of the feminist groups want somehow to join the men in this (sick) tool gathering competition. They justifiably want the signs of success they want the "freedom" to go about without the baggage of relationships and use things and people just the same as the men do.

Well I think that the best result would be a balance, not too much of either, but just enough to be successful at our chosen field. It is obvious to me that both qualities are needed for a whole person, of course I'm a 55 on the TG scale so I guess that means I'm balanced already (like I can take credit somehow for that uh huh). It does us no good to resent those on the other side of the spectrum, if we cant find it within ourselves to find the balance point within ourselves.

Like a coin, hate and love are opposite sides of the same coin, the same attachment with different results. The real opposite is indifference, non-attachment. No love no hate, just like someone who you have never met.

I hope this fall on some ears who need it, think about it.

[Sweet Susan]

Get a grip. Modern men are merely stuck in the quagmire left us by the Greatest Generation. We are trying to live up to their standards of what a man is in a world that is upside down. We aren't any worse or any better than they were, they just held the good book over their women and controlled them. Modern men are left to figure it all out. There's more here than what can be said in a post, but to be denegrating all men over such a wide range of misinterpretations and stereo-types is crap. Get a grip.

[Darlene.]

We here at the MtoF forum are hardly to blame for this, to a person here, we adore women

Better make sure you are speaking for yourself. I do not wish to be included in that statement. As I do not fit there.

I can only guess that you have lived a sheltered life. As a Child I was sexually abused for many years by an adult woman. And I am aware of many more of them.

They usually do not end in court over it because after all boys and men are supposed to be strong. Ha! What a bunch of crap. Stronger than their mothers, aunties etc.???

Get a grip is good advice. Don't assume is just as good.

Those who put women up on the pedestal are in my opinion lost puppies.

Love Darlene.

[timme]

Dear NYX,
As long as men keep running everything for the most part men will be the dominate sex.The female side of things have gotten so far up where the sun doesn't shine that it's no wonder that men are getting the bad end of things.I'm a man,& will always be a man no matter what,& I'll never give that up.I might be bisexual,& a cross dresser but that does not make me less a man.The ladies have always been put in high regards when it came to society.They have their place like we do the man work for the living,& the woman now has to work also to make ends meet.Really nothings changed the woman is still the chief cook and bottle washer,& the BOSS at home.She usually has the final say. as did the gal with the big mouth in the other post.Maybe things has gotten blurred and the female is slowly taking on the role of the man?(hey sure look like it to me on the way they dress today?I look like a fashion plate in comparison to the way a lot of the females dress today!).I just glad we CD/TV'S are here to shore up the dress code a bit
Anyway for a better part of what's going on is that things are slowly become where it will be the 1920's and it will be this time "Men's Sufferage.Hum? maybe we CD'S can see into the furture that's why we ready to play the female part?
HUGS GIRLS
TIMME

[Natasha Anne]

The pendulum swings and no one seems to have decided it shouldn't swing back so far this time. As with affirmative action, it's important to provide an "unequal" opportunity for those who have been discriminated in the past so that we can accelerate their participation in society as equals, but that does not mean that in everyday life we should be viewed as inferior.

I think people should protect each other against these negative views, no matter which side of the fence they're on, and simply recognise that while the world is going through a correction, both sides are allowing that.

Violence remains violence, and those that perpetrate negative behaviour because they cannot deal with societies progressive views should be punished like any other criminal. Correcting past imbalances is not about creating a negative perception of men, but the press, rumour and stupid thinking keep on saying that. If men were studpid and two dimensional why would people be trying to get on an even keel with them.

In my experience women in business are just as ruthless as they men they vilify.

More than that, as they strive for success in a male dominated world, they remain protective of their world. Men may not intrude (as we here so often do). They denigrate us when we do, and fail to see the double standard that they create by doing so. Making us feel like idiots when we dress as females, while feeling powerful when they dress like men (some even use male frangrances at work) effectively says to the world that the female role is a lesser role and also says they have permission to "intrude" and we do not. Why should they be able to discriminate so overtly (as in the ads Nyx refers to) while we sit and accept that. Also why should it be acceptable and funny for a girl to punch a guys lights out in movies and sitcoms, but the alternative is not. It's blatant discrimination and unacceptable behaviour that is perpetuated without though for the young children that might be watching, learning and if they're boys becoming resentful.

You might notice I'm passionate about these things.

[Nyx]

Well it seems like most people are agreeing with what I said. I also agree with most of what was said. Except for what Azure said... As I think he's simply contributing further to this denigration with his pessimistic views... And I hate pessimism :mad:.

So, right. I consider myself a sensitive person. I hate when girls spit out stereotypes about men having no emotions, being unable to love (only thinking about sex), blah blah blah... And about violence. I don't really think men are that much more violent than women. Its simply that they were taught not to use physical strength, and they are at a disadvantage on that plan. However, women tend to rely on psychological violence alot.

I agree, the stereotypes about men come from somewhere, but they're insulting. What I see is girls my age, getting together with lame guys, and ending up with a failing relationship... And at the end they blaming the guy, and saying all guys are the same. What about me? I've never had the chance to have a girlfriend yet. Even though I am confident that I am an attractive guy, that I have an interesting personality, and that I could take care of a girl properly... It seems girls are precisely attracted to guys which will disappoint them... The kind of neandertal specimen they like to categorize men as.

Is marriage consentual rape? I think thats a pretty negative view... Very negative view. Some feminists are just feminazis. Like that feminist party in sweden that proposed all men should pay a tax for violence against women. Not realising that would not only irritate all men, making them all feel bad, but that it could also generate even more violence against women: "Hey, I'm paying a tax for violence against women, I should get what I pay for".

I think the main problem is just separation between sexes. It seems modern society likes to dig an immense trench between men and women. We are no longer the two elements of a specy, but two distinct kinds of animals. We must wear different clothes, listen to different kinds of music, we must have different interests and different personalities.... And nobody should ever cross this trench, as otherwise, he will be rejected by women, and persecuted by members of his own group.

I'm not just talking about crossdressing here. I'm talking about being a complete person. Women are encouraged to do it, but men are not. This is a double standard which we should fight against. I am not a woman beater, having a penis does not make me a rapist, and I have the right to have emotions.

[Stormgirl]

Cliff's notes? Jk jk Dont hurt me,I'll read it all.

[Zoey]

This is something I've been thinking a lot about too. I remember being little and reading that nursery rhyme about what little boys are made of (snips of snails and puppy dog tails) and getting very upset by it. I definitely think I was influenced by the images of males I saw on television and in movies when I was growing up. I couldn't find any role models. I didn't see any men who were anything like me, or who I wanted to be like. I was shy and sensitive, and that wasn't something I was supposed to be as a male, so I just withwdrew from everyone. Girls could be sensitive or they could be rough. Boys didn't have a choice. That was my impression then anyway. I never wanted to embrace those stereotypes of men, but I tried to because I thought that was how I was supposed to be. I don't feel that I ever succeeded at doing that though. It was just too unlike my basic personality and I think it just caused me more problems. For myself, I think maybe I just need to redefine what it means to be male.

[Like2BAspen]

Women ie feminests need to go away men today just want to play by a fair and equal set of rules. If women have a choice you know what i'm talking about then men should have the same choice not be convicted of murder. Why don't women have to register for selective service. Why aren't the feminests pushing for equallity in the family courts Feminests are FREAKS and I don't beleive represent most women. When the pendulum swings the other way there will be no place for them and women that really need help won't get it and that battlefield will leave a lot of lawyers and shrinks put away in the aftermath. Now lets forget about this and get dressed

[sissy maid phylis]

for me being a man is the most boring thing.since finding out that i am a crossdresser (and finding that i really enjoy it )i really believe that girls do have more fun.their clothing is so much easy to wear and arent the colors devine.also in this new age men are returning to their cave man ways.ie murder of innocents and so much rage that i am ashamed to be one.i guess thats why i feel so comfortable when i change and become a woman and sometimes it hurts when i have to change back. love phylis anne

[Nyx]

for me being a man is the most boring thing.since finding out that i am a crossdresser (and finding that i really enjoy it )i really believe that girls do have more fun.their clothing is so much easy to wear and arent the colors devine.also in this new age men are returning to their cave man ways.ie murder of innocents and so much rage that i am ashamed to be one.i guess thats why i feel so comfortable when i change and become a woman and sometimes it hurts when i have to change back. love phylis anne

I think that in order to be a healthy person, you need to accept yourself. I'm starting to believe more and more that desperately wanting to be a woman is just a good way to destroy yourself...

I chatted with a few transexuals, and most of them loathed their man side. Some of them (not all, but many) tend to act in a falsely feminine way, that seems like a caricature of what women are, rather than true feminity (think drag queens). This does not seem very inspiring to me.

Women do have cute clothes, but perhaps we can borrow some of that creativity and integrate it in our daily look. Not in the same way, of course, but in a way that makes us able to express who we are in a more complete way. Would it be possible to dress comfortably without disguising as someone of the other sex?

[Katiegirl]

I was at a singles party last night and as the evening went on most of the women moved into the disco room to dance. I went into the room with a couple of the women I had been chatting too and had been attempting to dance when one of the women said very loudly "What is the matter with the men nowerdays all they seem to do is sit on their arses and drink, no wonder we outlive them"

I wondered what had brought that outburst on when I realised I was he only man amongst 15 women. The same woman then turned to me and said "You seem to be the only one with any go"

It made me think, is the sterotype over 50 single male, lazy drunk and a losser whereas the single over 50 female is out to have a good time while she can.

Being a transgender perhaps we have more "go" than many of the more macho men, and are prepared to enjoy ourselves.



Mind of a Woman,Body of a Man, Life is a Bitch

[Helana]

I definitely think I was influenced by the images of males I saw on television and in movies when I was growing up. I couldn't find any role models. I didn't see any men who were anything like me, or who I wanted to be like. I was shy and sensitive, and that wasn't something I was supposed to be as a male, so I just withwdrew from everyone. Girls could be sensitive or they could be rough. Boys didn't have a choice. That was my impression then anyway. I never wanted to embrace those stereotypes of men, but I tried to because I thought that was how I was supposed to be. I don't feel that I ever succeeded at doing that though. It was just too unlike my basic personality and I think it just caused me more problems. For myself, I think maybe I just need to redefine what it means to be male.

It is precisely because of the lack of appropriate sensitive male role models which we could identify with as we grew up that helps create gender dysphoria and eventually CDing. The more society/mass media portrays men in a violent/unemotional/negative manner, and the greater the divide between the roles of men and women in society, the more boys will grow up to be crossdressers. The denigration of men will only assist this process as boys perceive that women are "superior" and so obtaining feminine qualities becomes desirable.

As always it will be the women who will decide when things have gone too far and the men will follow. There is a growing realization among women that they have bitten off more than they can chew, that the working woman competing with men in the boardroom and being a wife and mother at the same time is no nirvana. There is also a growing appreciation that there are real reasons why some professions are dominated by one sex over the other as each has different strengths and weaknesses.

However, in the meantime our mass media still continues to pump out falsely exaggerated stereotypes of both genders that only promotes misunderstanding from both sides.

[Danielle1960]

Well I'm interested in this thread because the blame is put on one side of the isle im most cases.
Do men do dumb things? YES. Do women do dumb things? YES. Can men be violent? YES Are all men Violent? NO. Women YES/NO Are men trained by soceity to be aggressive? YES Bread winners? YES Are women? YES but with a caviot. Women are taught to follow there feeling in these matters because they are the superior intellect. This is the worthless diatribe heard all the times.

Is it sad (and terrible) when a woman gets abused? YES. Is it terrible when a man gets abused? YES if you hear about it. As men were told to suck it up, swallow your pride, get with the program and finish the task at hand. Men are very afraid to turn in a abusive spouse and if they do then stand by for the shunning because as a man you didn't handle the problem.

I guess the bottome line here is I crossdress because I want to, and in the process learning about the softer side of femininity I was required to ignore while growing up, while serving my country, and while raising a family. However as a man or a woman we are equal and whe should try not find all the short comings in each other.

Is there alot of flaws in my diatribe? Probably but it was only 2 cents worth.

Danielle

[Nyx]

There are definitely alot that share my opinion. I think we have hit the nail on the head. The denigration of men might very well be one of the major causes to crossdressing. This does not mean that crossdressing is "wrong", but it does suggest that there might be better solutions, however, in order to become more complete individuals.

[Brandy_Marie]

This is a great topic. I have had to really think about some things as I have been reading through this. It's especially ironic after what I just posted on another thread. Just goes to show that I still have a lot to learn about life (but at least I'm willing to).

I have always been one of the "Rah! Rah! Go Women! Men Suck!" club. But, as pointed out here, that is perhaps an overly simplistic viewpoint. I must admit, I have met my fair share of women that ranged anywhere from utterly worthless to downright sick and sadistic. I have also met my share of intelligent, understanding, empathic men. But I will say that in both cases they have been the minority.

One of my great loves is the study of history. Of course, history (and it's truths) can be argued and debated as much as any other topic in life. But in looking at a broad overview of history, I have noted a definite cyclical trend. It is often believed that in the Pre-Roman Era, many of the cultures were Matriarchal (Female dominant) in nature. In these cases, the women were the decision makers and the honored, respected members of society; Men were viewed strictly as hunters, warriors, and instruments of reproduction. That would seem to be a very limited image of Men, similar to what Nyx is talking about.

On the other hand, at some point in history, humanity seemed to shift to a Patriarchal culture. In this mode, Men were the decision makers and the honored, respected members of society. Women were, for the most part, practically slaves of their fathers or husbands. This is the era that produced the idea that "Women should be barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen." That, too, would seem like a very limited image of Women.

We, as enlightened human beings, tried to bring about a balance, by declaring women in a Patriarchal society equal to men. While that may be our goal, our execution of said plan has certainly left something to be desired. Maybe that's because we never work as a single, unified entity. Any good plan is going to get corrupted by the individual (and often greedy, short-sighted) plans of people. What we appear to be accomplishing is a transition back toward the Matriarchal dominance, where the image of Men is again very limited. Since it's a transition period, though, both sides have quality arguments that they are being viewed in a very limited manner.

As to the idea that M2F CDs are the way they are because a negative self-image has been forced upon them, and that they are trying to resolve it in a less than healthy way, I think that may be generalizing things a bit too much. That's where the other irony comes in for me, as I justed stated my opinion on the base motivation for all of us M2Fs on another thread. Honestly, we are all individuals; while it's true that, at some deep level, our motivations may all share a common source, I believe that we are all individuals. There are as many reasons for us doing this as there are of us.

It's not the act, in and of itself, that's harmful. It's the how and why's of it that can be. Just like anything else. Moderation could be the key to everything. If you, as an individual, are using crossdressing as an escape from reality, as a way to avoid dealing with some hurt in your life that you are not ready to face, then yea; that's probably not the healthiest thing to be doing. In the long run, you'd be better off working with a Therapist. But that doesn't mean that everyone who crossdresses is doing that.

I'll give you an example from a different area of life. I'm sure most of you know what Amphetamines are. They are a class of stimulant drugs, often referred to as Speed and other names. These drugs can serve many different purposes. Medical science has discovered that, under the right circumstances and used in moderation, Amphetamines can be used to treat Attention Deficit Disorder and Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. On the other hand, some historians have been discovering records that indicate the entire Nazi Army in World War II was being given extremely high doses of Amphetamines to improve their agressiveness and performance; some even think that "speed poisoning" may have lead to Hitler's downfall, as he was apparently a "speed freak" himself. And that's not even mentioning the modern day narcotics industry that has adapted it into such wonderful things as Crystal Meth.

I have yet to see a 100% positive or negative in this universe for myself. Everything has the potential to be harmful or helpful; unfortunately, our view is limited, and we are not always able to see both sides of the coin in every situation.

Me personally, I think the denigration of men is just something we are going to have to live with. Whether we like it or not, nature has it's own way of attempting to maintain a balance no matter what we do. Men (as a whole) had a position of power over women for millenia, and it appears that most of them abused that privilege. As their successors, we are burdened with paying the price for it; we can't fight it, but we have the choice as to whether it breaks us or makes us stronger.

Okay, now I really need to go do something else for a while

Brandy Marie Devereaux

[Roberta-Jane]

Just a short point from me,

I fail to see how male denigration made me put on my sister's party dress at the age of 5. Hell I couldn't even spell dengiton, danigition, denigreyshun, putting men down at that age!

Please enlighten me on this one

Peace and tranquility


Roberta-Jane

[Nyx]

Just a short point from me,

I fail to see how male denigration made me put on my sister's party dress at the age of 5. Hell I couldn't even spell dengiton, danigition, denigreyshun, putting men down at that age!

Please enlighten me on this one

Why are you not allowed to? Why did you do it? How did you feel about doing it? Why are girl panties so much cuter than guy panties? Why can they have all this beautiful clothing and you can't, as a guy?

Me personally, I think the denigration of men is just something we are going to have to live with. Whether we like it or not, nature has it's own way of attempting to maintain a balance no matter what we do. Men (as a whole) had a position of power over women for millenia, and it appears that most of them abused that privilege. As their successors, we are burdened with paying the price for it; we can't fight it, but we have the choice as to whether it breaks us or makes us stronger.

No offense, but thats foolish. We don't have to be passive and accept everything that is done to us. When you disagree with something, and have valid points, you can make yourself heard, and change things. Even a single person can have a tremendous influence on a society.

As for "most of them abused that privilege", I don't see the validity in that. Many abused, sure, most, perhaps not. The problem is that abusers tend to make alot of noise.

[Brandy_Marie]

No offense, but thats foolish. We don't have to be passive and accept everything that is done to us. When you disagree with something, and have valid points, you can make yourself heard, and change things. Even a single person can have a tremendous influence on a society.

True. I can't argue that point. A single person CAN have a tremendous influence on society. The problem is, should they? Many people who 'mean well' impose their will on others and it doesn't turn out good. Adolf Hitler and all the other dictators throughout history have shown that. Most people we consider evil didn't think that of themselves; they thought they were working to improve society.

Sometimes, it's just as valuable to decide how you are going to use an obstacle thrown your way to strengthen yourself and become a better person as it is to convince the rest of the world that the obstacle should be removed. I don't call that passive acceptance.

As for "most of them abused that privilege", I don't see the validity in that. Many abused, sure, most, perhaps not. The problem is that abusers tend to make alot of noise.

Really? You don't? Hmm, that's interesting. Have you ever wondered why the divorce rate has appeared to increase so dramatically since women were granted equal rights? Is it women's selfishness? That is obviously one possible explanation. Another is that, before equal rights, a woman had very little choice but to suffer whatever her husband threw at her. So let's see; you're a married man and you can do ANYTHING you want and you're wife has no choice but to accept it. And that's okay, because that's the way society is. That's the norm. Absolute power corrupts absolutely; you give any man that kind of power over a woman, and tell him it's not only perfectly okay for him to use it, but that it's his responsibility to keep his woman in line and I'll bet you a good majority of them will take advantage of it. Back then, it's what they grew up with; it's what they knew. Emotional abuse, physical abuse, cheating; people I talk to complain that it didn't use to be like this. They wonder why are things so much worse than they used to be? Has it really gotten worse, or is the world just more aware of it because it's harder for people to get away with it without reprecussions?

Who knows. Maybe you're right. Maybe I'm right. Maybe both of us aren't even remotely close.

"Do not feel absolutely certain of anything." - Bertrand Russell.

But for now I'm back to cooking dinner. Hugs to everyone,

Brandy Marie Devereaux

[Nyx]

Adolf Hitler and all the other dictators throughout history have shown that. Most people we consider evil didn't think that of themselves; they thought they were working to improve society.

A philosopher never imposes his will on others. Hitler lied to his own people, who only learned about concentration camps after hitler was brought down.

Really? You don't? Hmm, that's interesting. Have you ever wondered why the divorce rate has appeared to increase so dramatically since women were granted equal rights? Is it women's selfishness? That is obviously one possible explanation.

Selfishness, lack of involvement, lack of projects, lack of actual love, boredom. Those are the reasons.

I know girls that were abused, and those are actually the ones that took the longest to separate... They were so much under the domination if their abusive boyfriend/husband, that they couldn't get themselves to leave them.

Who knows. Maybe you're right. Maybe I'm right. Maybe both of us aren't even remotely close.

Maybe one day pigs will fly. Maybe the sun won't rise tommorow. Maybe I'm the next pope. Don't you love sequences of sentences that don't add anything. Whatever.