Social Cues?

[Alan]

Cai's comment in Males vs. Females got me thinking. How difficult do you guys find it to read male social cues properly?

I'm not sure if that made sense... let me rephrase. Men have a different set of social cues when dealing with other men than when they're dealing with women. If/when you pass as a guy, how hard do you find it to read those social cues properly?

What about when dealing with women?

For me, I guess I don't find it too difficult when I do get read as a guy (it stuns me every time still, since I still haven't started binding or anything like that, I just wear my hair short. /shrug). I mean, I follow the set of etiquette that men are expected to when dealing with women. Since I was raised somewhat European, I'm more old-school in my set of manners than a lot of guys (for example -- although this DOES depend on the circumstances, but more often than not -- I will stand up when a lady enters the room. And I will offer said lady my seat, if there are no others.).

I lost my train of thought....

Right, reading social cues. So, people's thoughts on this?

[Cai]

I'm fairly well-versed in how men interact with women (or with other guys when women are present), and how women interact with each other

I haven't had much experience in dealing with male-male interactions, which does make it harder when I get into those situations.

I try to follow male rules of social etiquette, but some of them I don't like. For example, I used to despise having doors opened and held for me (thankfully doesn't happen as much anymore), so I'm not in a hurry to replicate that behavior. (When I say holding, I mean grabbing the door and standing off to the side until I'm completely through. Can't stand it - I feel like they're telling me I'm not even capable of opening an effing door. I still open doors for people, but just hold them behind me as I'm walking through unless the person is carrying something)

My work environment, with one notable exception, tends to treat me like one of the guys even though I'm presenting female. It's teaching me a lot about how men use teasing/friendly insults and jokes at the listener's expense in order to bond.

I'm not the best example though. I have trouble with social cues to begin with - I'm not good at figuring out when someone is trying to exit a conversation gracefully, for example. So really, for me, all social cues are mimic anyway - I behave much more feminine around women, because I'm following their lead to prevent me from screwing up. Monkey See, Monkey Do.

[Alan]

ZELIG! We have missed you /random movie reference

Seriously, though, I understand your point.

I've always used the jokes method, and it's gotten me bonded with guys very quickly, but not with girls. No surprise there.

[metalguy639]

Opening a door for a lady is a must IMO. I'm sorry Cai but the reason young men are taught this is out of RESPECT for a lady or woman. I understand if you have a different view on this as some females (not saying you are now but when you were presenting as female) have a more feminists approach. I'm very old school and pretty much look at a man that does not open a door for a lady, offer a seat to a lady, allow a lady to go into a door first, open a car door for a lady, or overall treat a lady right as being disrespectful. I personally was not raised that way. This is not meant as an attack on you nor am I saying you are wrong for how you believe and feel about the subject Cai its just how I was raised. Also Cai although you do not believe in this and really hated it, there are more women who do not share that idea and would look at you funny if you did not open a door etc., so just that you know that may or may not be a reason they would act funny or strange. When I presented as female I would look at a guy like he'd lost his mind if he ran into the door to try and "beat" me inside. Being raised down south they frown on these things. And as I said I'm not trying to incite you to be upset or anything here. These things mentioned above are really more manners & etiquette rather than social cues though. Also another note and this may seem way out there to you guys but you may find that doing these things will automatically make others "see" you as male and may make it easier to pass. This may not be the case all the time though and I'm certainly not saying that someone should give up their personal beliefs willy nilly for this idea either. I'm also not saying that you cannot pass unless you do these things.

As for social cues. I grew up only playing with boys I did not have a friend that was female until I was about 14 years old. So I'm unsure as to what cues it is that would need to be done or not done. Since I was raised with mostly guys around it never occurred to me about the cues thing.

[CaptLex]

So basically there are two separate things being discussed in this thread: male social cues and gentlemanly behavior, right? So here's my on each:

1. The easier one first: I may be deluded, but I think I picked up on male social cues very early on and don't find them all that mysterious. As a kid, I barely opened my mouth and mostly observed people in all kinds of social settings, so I noticed very early that men and women behave differently when talking to other men, other women, other men in the company of women, other women in the company of men, children, older people, younger people, people they like, people they despise, people from other social classes and ethnicities, etc.

And for some reason (maybe because I pretty much faded into the background then) males always talked frankly to each other even when I was in the room, so I saw that "typical macho" behavior and took note of it. What this means is that (with few exceptions) I think I can relate to pretty much anyone in most social settings - including guys on their own, or in the company of others, including other guys. I also found out early on that I can pretty much ask guys anything and they will give me an honest response - maybe because many don't have that fear lots of women seem to have about being disliked if they tell you something straightforwardly.

2. Now, on the topic of etiquette, courtesy, etc. towards women . . . allow me to preface it with this disclaimer: please understand that this is only my opinion and I don't expect anyone to agree with it, nor do I want to give the impression that I think everyone should do as I do. I think whatever one feels is right for them, is fine.

My opinion (probably based on my years of living as and presenting as female) is that to treat anyone of any gender differently demonstrates an inequality between genders. I am a courteous person and my parents taught me good manners: please, thank you, share your cookies with the other kids, don't talk with your mouth full, use your napkin, hold the door for other people, offer a seat to those who need it more than you, etc.

And I do this, not based on sex or gender, but just out of common courtesy. So, no, I don't think I should stand when a lady enters the room and I don't think I need to offer one a seat if she's perfectly able-bodied. Actually, I think it borders on sexist to treat women like breakable porcelain dolls and I resented being treated that way when I lived as one.

I will offer pregnant women, people carrying kids, or elderly, frail-looking or cane-dependent people a seat. I will automatically hold the door if someone is coming up right behind me so the door doesn't slam in their face (I hate it when people do that to me). I'll also automatically hold the door open for anyone carrying large, heavy or multiple packages (delivery guys love me ). But, again, I don't see it as gentlemanly to treat women like they're on a pedestal - for me it seems that's not treating them like equals.

[Alan]

Male social cues were never a problem with me, but before puberty, I was treated like a guy, and after puberty, a lot of guys didn't change in how they treated me.

Re: etiquette
I've long been taught that I'm supposed to let a guy open the door for me, let me in first, etc. It drives me nuts when guys do it to me, because I'm not a woman. I used to argue with my best friend about it in Hungary, because he would insist that it was proper. Finally, when I told him I was a guy, he understood why I hate it. Didn't INSIST on always opening the door and everything.

I give my seat over usually, but I'm 19 and pretty damn sturdy, and most of the people I know/am friendly with, are at least in their 30s, so it's sorta automatic for me.

The whole standing up thing... Like I said, it depends on situation. If it's someone I know well, I won't stand up. If it's someone I know well but is totally hung-up on etiquette, I stand up, sorta to humor her. And if it's someone I don't know, I stand up, because greeting someone sitting is just rude, imho.

I've been taught that opening the door is always polite, regardless of who is doing the opening and who is doing the walking through. I'm muddling here. I think I've lost the thread of what I'm saying...

Etiquette... Actually, I know what I wanna say about this. I subscribe to the "be nice to other people, and they'll be nice to you" theory. So as much as I can manage it, I'm polite and civil and absolutely helpful, and I find that people in my life are similarly helpful later. It's just good business.

Now, I shut up before I could possibly make LESS sense.

[Cai]

OK, let me make something completely clear. I am always polite, courteous, and respectful to people around me. I don't care if they're men, women, or something else. Like Lex said, I catch doors so they don't slam in the face of the person behind me. I'll give up my seat to someone who looks like they need it. I'll pick up things that someone has dropped, or offer to help carry something if it looks particularly heavy.

But I do those things absolutely irrespective of what I perceive the person's gender to be.

In very, very formal situations, I will do as expected (the gentlemanly door hold, standing up when someone enters a room), but in everyday life I use common courtesies, not formal ones.

[metalguy639]

I never said anything about you guys not being polite. I think you kinda missed my point. Being polite and being a gentleman are 2 totally different things IMO although they coincide. I do the same things, please, thank you (and the cookies thing), respect my elders etc. But those are things that are polite to do and most people are taught these things even if they are female. I was taught that as well as it sounds like several guys here were taught that. But when you talk about being a gentleman this is totally different in many respects as it shows a lady that you respect her (say if you are out with her on a date, or just out as friends). These things are gentlemanly manners that pretty much ALL men are taught and most all men do with some exceptions (meaning not all are taught the same things because not the same things are important to the parent to teach, it depends on where & how you are growing up). Most of these things are welcomed by a good majority of women out there and wanted.

You may or may not have noticed that most men are not really interested in feminist views, situations or ideals. They pretty much just do as they were told to do as we all do. Sometimes its hard I guess to figure out what is right for each person when you are in transition.

[Cai]

Damien, I definitely hear what you're saying, and I understand your position. It's not something I believe in doing, which doesn't make it wrong - just not me. We'll have to agree to disagree.

I tried, when I was first starting to present male, to follow some of the stereotypical expectations of a man. The first reason I stopped was that a couple of friends (knowing I was trans) told me they didn't actually appreciate, and the second reason was that it didn't fit who I wanted to be. I was and still am a die-hard feminist, and some of those etiquette behaviors just rub me the wrong way.

[Alan]

I'm a die-hard feminist, but then again, I open the door for EVERYONE.

I think I'm not gonna try to make sense right now. I was just curious about this. Thanks guys!

[Abraxas]

I'm pretty perceptive of peoples' social cues, generally speaking. I dunno, I'm not really that much different around guys than girls when inside my own social circle. The girls I know are rough and tumble. They like fart jokes and horror movies and wrestling, just like the guys. So I don't really feel the need to act any differently.

Then again, around people I don't know, I don't think I treat men and women any differently either. I don't actually find myself in a lot of situations where I would be expected to act any differently than I normally do. Mainly because I don't meet people. If I do, I pretty much just follow basic societal rules. Y'know, shake hands, say 'nice to meet you' and don't raid their fridge, even if they tell you it's okay.

Social cues... Hmmm. Yeah. More on that. I've noticed a definite difference and I never had a problem picking up on them, and using the male social cues. Stuff like eye contact-- men never make eye contact, and if they do, it's best to look away quickly. Whereas women tend to make more eye contact. That, honestly, is the biggest one, I've found. It's so... weird when a guy makes and holds eye contact with me.
Other things like mannerisms-- guys take up more room than women of a similar size. Legs wide, arms wide, that kind of thing. Tiny details like how a guy holds a cigarette or a glass.

So, to answer your question, no I don't find it that hard.

[Sara Violet]

Hi guys,
I just wanted to say that as a guy I found that men are very frank with each other. Personal opinions count on a much higher level between men who are "on the same level" about a subject. I also found health to be a subject almost never talked about in male to male conversation.

The nod is another big one. Males who don't know each other will do a small nod of the head to greet each other if they don't intend to speak. Kind of like a speechless "hey" or "whats up" or just an "acknowledgment". For me it was one of my toughest mannerisms to break out of because it has so many uses. Watch the movie fight club if you want to see what I mean.

I don't want to go off subject, but I love it when you guys hold the door for me. I know its going to get old, but for now its a cue that I am passing as female. That makes me feel good.

This is my first post in this forum so I hope I did not offend.

[Alan]

Well, I'm not offended. Can't speak for anyone else, naturally.

I'm familiar with the nod. And 'hey', which stands for 1,000,000 things. And with the frankness. I'm very frank always.

Not just health, but emotional problems too. Guys aren't about to talk about their emotional health unless... UNLESS they're absolutely best friends and they trust each other... and there's copious amounts of alcohol involved. Kidding, of course, but with my guy friends, it was always sorta just not talked about unless we were online and there was no face-to-face contact.

[xTwo_Of_Heartsx]

I'm having a hard time with this stuff..
I'm having to re-learn how to interact with the general public.. and it's really difficult.. because my whole life, I lived as a girl -- a very feminine girl.. the type who'd stop and tell a woman how beautiful her baby is.. or flirt with guys in a straight bar.. things like that.. and those are just two of the things that aren't socially acceptable, being a guy.. it's like a whole new world.

[Alan]

I'm having a hard time with this stuff..
I'm having to re-learn how to interact with the general public.. and it's really difficult.. because my whole life, I lived as a girl -- a very feminine girl.. the type who'd stop and tell a woman how beautiful her baby is.. or flirt with guys in a straight bar.. things like that.. and those are just two of the things that aren't socially acceptable, being a guy.. it's like a whole new world.

Heh, I still tell women they have beautiful babies.... I love kids. Usually, though, I'm holding my sister's hand (my sis is 7), so it's like, I'm not TOTALLY creepy. Maybe?

[xTwo_Of_Heartsx]

lol.. yeah.. when you have a child with you, you're safe.. but if not.. uhh.. I think it raises red flags for the moms. My ex warned me that now that I'm living as a guy, I can't do that anymore.

[Alan]

My sis usually does most of the admiring, and I make appreciative noises too, so that I don't look totally cold or whatever, and I don't get a ton of weird looks.

Then again, half the time, I do still get read as female

[xTwo_Of_Heartsx]

lately, I've been getting read as male.. but I think it's the way I walk and carry myself.. and my voice is deeper.. I think my face is a bit different too.. *shrug*.. I don't know.. it just seems to come effortlessly now that I've been on T for a while.. it's like.. magic

[Alan]

I think the only think holding me back is the fact that I *still* haven't started binding

I do have good reasons for it, but it's a major thing. /shrug.

[xTwo_Of_Heartsx]

yeah, that could be it. it may also be affecting your confidence, and your ability to "project" maleness.. if that makes any sense.. lol..

[Abraxas]

Now maybe it's just the fact that the guys I hang out with are weird, but my guy friends do tend to talk about mental and physical health issues, and relationship issues. Granted, when it comes to relationships it is more often than not to complain that their girlfriend/wife doesn't want to have sex...

But I've had several conversations with guys who would talk about (and ask for advice about) medical issues, or relationship/ emotional things. Many of these things embarrassing-- stuff I certainly wouldn't even feel comfortable divulging to a doctor a lot of the time. And this isn't like they're asking a girl's perspective. They're asking a person's perspective-- they'll ask other genetic guys about this stuff, or have a candid conversation with a group of people, guys and girls.

Some of my guy friends have cried on shoulders, let other guys cry on their shoulders. They'll coo over babies, admit they cry when they watch 'Bambi'... If someone at a party overdoes it and gets sick, doesn't matter what gender, there will be people comforting them. If two guys are wrestling on the floor, and one gets hurt, the other guy will pick him up and make sure he's okay, not laugh at him and call him a wuss.

So while I'm not comfortable showing emotion in front of people, at least I know if I do, it's not being taken as me showing weakness, or just because I'm 'female.'

I'll admit I really like this openness about the people I know. It's really damn cool that we're all so comfortable with each other that we can actually be human. And this isn't just one group of friends; it's all my friends.

Needless to say, I feel really lucky to know these people. But I can't help thinking, based on all I've heard about 'typical male behaviour,' that it's a bit weird.

[valenstein]

Wow, this suject is close to my heart. I'm a MTF, and the hardest part for me is acting like a male when I'm not presenting feminine. My SO taught me a lot about manners (male and female). Back in Seattle, I used to hold doors open for nearly everyone. Her elderly mother lives with us, so I'd hold the door open and then for anyone else coming in or out. In Seattle, I never noticed it to be an issue. But as Damien mentioned, it can be quite different in the South. I lived in Charlotte for awhile, and there were men who WOULD NOT go through the door if I was holding it (in male mode or otherwise), even if I had been just holding it open for others.

I may have mentioned it here before somewhere, but I never really felt accepted by my SO's family until they started "messing" with me at family functions, such as throwing stuff at me, making stupid jokes or insults... I don't have it in me to do that stuff back, but I did feel more accepted. I do have one male in law that would rather hug me than shake my hand, and it feels genuine, I appreciate him for that. I hate the half hug/backslap. It hasn't gotten me into trouble yet, but I like making faces at babies at the store. If I had to add other things as far as how males interact:

When you first meet another guy, a bonecrushing handshake is rarely a bad thing. I guarantee they'll remember you.

If two guys are eating and one of them spills mustard on his new shirt, it's funny, hilarious to both if they are both drunk.

"Jackass" is the funniest show on televsion. Seriously. Maybe dial it back a bit, but guydom at its best.

Time heals most wounds in an argument. Even if neither party says they're sorry, a lot of times 24 hours does the trick. Guys will both look at each other with a "yeah, I f'ed up" face and laugh about it. End of argument.

Abraxas, you are lucky, and I feel really lucky to be able to speak my mind here or I think I'd go mad!

[Alan]

yeah, that could be it. it may also be affecting your confidence, and your ability to "project" maleness.. if that makes any sense.. lol..

I think the fact that I get read as male more than half the time probably means I'm projecting enough maleness. And I'm insanely confident in myself.

Now maybe it's just the fact that the guys I hang out with are weird, but my guy friends do tend to talk about mental and physical health issues, and relationship issues. Granted, when it comes to relationships it is more often than not to complain that their girlfriend/wife doesn't want to have sex...

The guys I hung with wouldn't talk about anything. My best friend and I did, but seriously, pretty much ONLY online. Hell, my EX (when he wasn't my ex) wouldn't talk to me about things because he just didn't like talking about his problems.

/shrug. I don't, either. Most of my problems I like to keep in my head, where it can only harm me.

Some of my guy friends have cried on shoulders, let other guys cry on their shoulders. They'll coo over babies, admit they cry when they watch 'Bambi'... If someone at a party overdoes it and gets sick, doesn't matter what gender, there will be people comforting them. If two guys are wrestling on the floor, and one gets hurt, the other guy will pick him up and make sure he's okay, not laugh at him and call him a wuss.

I was part of a really great group of guys, but I was definitely given strange looks for crying at the funeral scenes in more heartwrenching movies (Four Weddings and a Funeral).

Needless to say, I feel really lucky to know these people. But I can't help thinking, based on all I've heard about 'typical male behaviour,' that it's a bit weird.

Hon, YOU'RE just weird.

When you first meet another guy, a bonecrushing handshake is rarely a bad thing. I guarantee they'll remember you.

I have a bonecrushing handshake, or at least, a very firm one. I was the Captain of an academic team in high school, and one of the things we had to compete in was interview (don't ask. It's very strange). There was a specific handshake-type we had to learn. Guys were supposed to have a firm handshake, girls were supposed to do it much more gently. Actually, it varied, depending on whom you were shaking hands with: Guy-guy was firm, guy-girl was much more gentle, almost like a half 'I'm about to kiss your knuckles' thing, and girl-girl was like guy-guy, just gentle.

Since I had to teach all of the handshakes, I had to know all of them. My handshake has always been firm and confident, and it got me a lot of points on interview.

Time heals most wounds in an argument. Even if neither party says they're sorry, a lot of times 24 hours does the trick. Guys will both look at each other with a "yeah, I f'ed up" face and laugh about it. End of argument.

Time heals almost ALL wounds between guys. I've never had a fight with a guy friend that lasted more than a day, minus ones with my ex.

[xTwo_Of_Heartsx]

I project alot better than I used to, because T has given me confidence.. *shrugs*

[valenstein]

Time heals almost ALL wounds between guys. I've never had a fight with a guy friend that lasted more than a day, minus ones with my ex.

Well, my best friend in high school stole my girlfriend at the time, that one took me a few years to get over, but I even got over that, so I guess that proves your point