Can we get a consensus of what passing is?

[Melinda G]

To me it means not being noticed too much, when I walk down the street. Or if I am noticed, that I look enough like a woman, that a person is not sure, that I am a man. Even if someone might be a little suspicious, I think I look good enough, that they don't know if I am in transition, or a real woman. I certainly don't think they would peg me as a man in a dress. There are a lot of real woman that aren't too attractive.

[Empress Lainie]

[SIZE=4]Things that happened to me, that let you know you pass!

1. Did your husband die? (at a meeting of a hospital auxiliary service H2U, sitting at a table with 3 other women who looked older than me but were likely younger.)

2. Have you had a hysterectomy? (while lying on a gurney waiting for my new pacemaker surgery from the nurse taking medical history)

3. Are you married? (from a guy I danced with)

4. Bowling in a women's or mixed league as a woman, which I plan to do. My ID is female now.

5. Can I take you to your table ladies? (waiters at several restaurants)

6. You are the Queen of the Suncoast (from a band leader while I was dancing.)

7. When is your baby due? (another lady when I was wearing my Miracle on the Way Tshirt - I know I am terrible!)

8. When your ex-gf asks you to go to the ladies room with her.
[/SIZE]

[Jonianne]

.......But, until we can agree (at least by a majority vote) on what we actually mean by passing, it seems rather pointless to have the discussion on why or if it matters?

Hi Nicki,

I don't usually try to be contrary, but I don't think there will ever be a set defination of "passing" nor should there be. Who would make that official? A majority? I don't think a majority rules on this issue.

I think every persons thoughts are valid even if its only one person. I think a major part of the discussion of why or if it matters will be each persons defination of "passing".

BTW, I voted for 3 "being comfortable ...." as it seems to be the most inclusive. Certainly, I would love to be taken for as a female, but the odds of that are slim. But, I don't let that stop me from feeling the sun on my face.

[TSchapes]

there's 93 responses and even though 45 percent believe it's blending, 55 percent think it's something other than blending.

I personally don't have a problem with the different definitions, I just think we obsess about it too much.

Plus, there's certain things that are out of our control. For example, one CD may go out and pass, two CD's that go out together could pass, but the rule of thumb is three or more CD's going out together and the odds of them passing are not good.

Also it seems the more you worry about passing the chances are good you won't.

That's why I picked the one where it doesn't depend on others.

Love, Tracy

[MarieTS]

There are undoubtedly varying opinions as to what "passing" is. But to me, it's all of the first three poll options combined.

[Ellie]

It seams to me that there should be another dimension to the question of passing and that is: By how far?

It is one thing to be seen as another gender from across the street, it is quite another to pass in an interpersonal situation such as face to face conversation with a stranger at a sidewalk café.

Perhaps that is one reason why it is so hard to evaluate a person "passability" from only still pictures.

[vivianann]

I voted comfortable with who you are, I know I dont pass however I have alot of confidence and peaple seem to pick up on that and I get alot of compliments from the ones that notice, and the rest of the peaple are too busy to care. When I go out in public I dress appropriate for the the day and time so I dont bring too much attention to myself.

[Nicki B]

I don't usually try to be contrary, but I don't think there will ever be a set defination of "passing" nor should there be. Who would make that official? A majority? I don't think a majority rules on this issue.

Joni, we have lots of threads that discuss passing - they so often get heated, perhaps because people are actually talking at cross purposes - we all use the same word, but to mean different things?

I'm not suggesting you no longer can use it any way you want - BUT I am trying to raise an awareness of how the majority may be using it and if you realise you are part of a minority, that may reduce temperatures, somewhat - rather than just continuing in ignorance?

It seams to me that there should be another dimension to the question of passing and that is: By how far?

It is one thing to be seen as another gender from across the street, it is quite another to pass in an interpersonal situation such as face to face conversation with a stranger at a sidewalk café.

But surely, in either case, your definition of what passing is is exactly the same?

[Nicki B]

there's 93 responses and even though 45 percent believe it's blending, 55 percent think it's something other than blending.

Yesterday it was 48%... But the consensus does seem to be that passing = blending, i.e. not being noticed in the first place, rather than (for example) an MTF being assumed to be a woman.

I confess I'm surprised, but I'd be intrigued to know what that latter should be called.


And 85% think it is related to what other people are thinking?

[Nadia-Maria]

But the consensus does seem to be that passing = blending, i.e. not being noticed in the first place, rather than (for example) an MTF being assumed to be a woman.

I confess I'm surprised, but I'd be intrigued to know what that latter should be called.

I share your surprise. As for me, "passing as a girl" has nothing to do with being unnoticed.
To really "pass" as a girl it is mandotary to have been noticed as a girl.
Just my understanding.
Hugs. Nadia

[Sally24]

My personal definition of passing, when I'm out, is to be treated as female and thought to be either female or a transexual (not a guy in a dress!).

[slamddoger]

to me passing is be combule whith your self

[Jonianne]

Joni, we have lots of threads that discuss passing - they so often get heated, perhaps because people are actually talking at cross purposes - we all use the same word, but to mean different things?

This is a good thread, Nicki. The subject is a good matter to be addressed. If we were absolutely technical about it, I would imagine most would pick #1. But since very few actually achive that level, I am not suprised most go with trying to blend in. Being realistic, I never go out expecting to "pass" (#1 or #2"), so I want to be comfortable enough with myself (#3) even if I know I am easily "read", so that either people don't notice or people feel comfortable around me.

I'm not suggesting you no longer can use it any way you want - BUT I am trying to raise an awareness of how the majority may be using it

I guess in my useage of the word in my posts, really I am using the defination of #1 or #2, since I say I go out "not expecting to pass".

BTW I havn't read in any of your post how you voted.

Hugs,

Joni

[Suzy Harrison]

#1 for me - I just want to be perceived as female from birth.

I don't go to TG friendly places - I just go anywhere in public, but always feel awful if I'm read. I'm very sensitive to this.

To show you how much so.... I was in a shop, in drab ~ and twice the assistant called me 'sir', as she should I suppose. But it cuts right through me.

I think that's one of the things that seemed to indicate, along the way, that I'm a transsexual rather than a CD.

[RavenAndrea]

I am transitioning, but as anyone of us we have good days and bad ones. So some days it is hard to get my makeup right. I know I have to really concentrate on passable makeup. Concealer and any foundation are difficult in summer because of exposure to the sun and the resulting tanning. I have been more successful finding a wood filler closer to my tanned complexion than concealer. But wood filler is not good for the skin (LOL). I expect GG's have a similar problem because I go to reputable cosmetic vendors such as Macs. I ride a Harley so my face gets wind burn plus sun. I'm just wondering if anyone has the same summer makeup problem.

Andrea

[Julogden]

Passing means, well, passing: being taken for a member of the sex opposite your birth sex/gender without question. That's what it's meant for the approximately 30 years that I've been in touch with the TG community.

To me, the term is quite specific and clear, but recently, many have a much more fuzzy way of defining it. As far as I'm concerned, being tolerated or accepted is not the same as passing, but in my opinion, it is more desireable, and for most of us, attainable.

Carol

[marny]

Passing tome is to go into a store and have the clerk ask ' Can I help you mamm?'

[JenniferPaul]

Let look at the chances you can achieve the first two choices. 1. Not being see as your birth gender, 2. Not being notice. If you go out regularly you will be seen by thousands of people. If you "Pass"by either of these standards 99.99 % of the time you will be noticed and read by at least on person.

Jennifer Paul

[Karen_Ski]

This was a tough poll because there were several of the replies that could fit how I feel about the proverbial "passing". Obviously not being recognized as a genetic male is the "ultimate" passing however fitting in or as the poll said "blending in" is important in my mind as I have stated in several of my posts. With all that said I chose being comfortable and accepted because I believe in my heart that gives me the most joy. It doesn't matter to me as much that I am "made" as it that people accept me for who I am and how I enjoy myself and that we all learn to accept each other for whatever we are.

[Valeria]

Yesterday it was 48%... But the consensus does seem to be that passing = blending, i.e. not being noticed in the first place, rather than (for example) an MTF being assumed to be a woman.

I confess I'm surprised, but I'd be intrigued to know what that latter should be called.

The word "passing" has a history predating contemporary gender issues -- for instance, it was historically used to describe a light-skinned African-American person passing as white. It did not mean that they were "comfortable" or "confident" or that they'd achieved "acceptance" -- it simply meant that people were taking them as white (and if it were later revealed that they were "not" white, there could be dire consequences). Within the confines of this forum (and perhaps CD culture in general), there do seem to be a lot of people that use the word as a synonym for "blending", but that's not what is generally meant in TS circles (and it's not the literal historical meaning of the word).

In any case, I only use the word "passing" when I think it's necessary for clarity (because that's the terminology being used by others). The word "passing" has a negative connotation (from the POV of someone TS), because it implies a level of deception (i.e., that we are passing ourselves off as something other than what we are).

My preferred phrasing is that I wish to be gendered correctly (or simply gendered as female). Since I'm legally female and live full-time as a woman, it'd be rather absurd to say that I'm "passing" as female -- I *am* female. It's more appropriate to note that I get consistently gendered as female.

I would describe the second option as "blending". The other options (being comfortable, and gaining acceptance) are something else. Being comfortable can help with getting gendered correctly (though it's not as key as some think -- I get gendered female even when I'm angry, upset, crying, and/or hysterical), but it's not the same as passing. Being accepted is nice, but it's totally out of our control and not a universal constant.

[BTW, I'm not thrilled with the phrasing "Not being taken as your birth sex". As far as I am concerned, my birth sex was female -- I was just misassigned as "male" because of genitalia anomalies. ]

Totally a toss-up between 1 & 2 for me. I mean, geez, I don't want to go through the entire process of going from Jay to Jillian and have no one notice me, yet, I don't want to be looked upon for too long, because my gender will quickly betray me. I guess I want the cake and I want to eat it, too.

If you are TS and transitioning, you have too pessimistic a viewpoint on what is possible. I teach classes, assess patients -- do all sorts of things that essentially *require* that people stare at me for extended periods. I also wear bikinis to water parks and beaches, throw parties for friends, and I'm quite gregarious. It doesn't cause me any problems -- none of my friends or students or patients or peers know I'm not technically a cis female. Lots of trans females reach the point where they get gendered as female extremely consistently.

Let look at the chances you can achieve the first two choices. 1. Not being see as your birth gender, 2. Not being notice. If you go out regularly you will be seen by thousands of people. If you "Pass"by either of these standards 99.99 % of the time you will be noticed and read by at least on person.

I think a lot of CDs will accept one in ten thousand people percieving them as their assigned gender instead of the gender they are presenting as, and I think a lot of TS people can do better than 99.99%.

[Ásfríðr]

being comfortable with yerself is not that much to do with passing. i think if people accept you as a transperson then you're a) passing passably and b) with trans-educated people; or if they aren't and they're still accepting of you as trans then you're changing people's ideas and thats always a good thing. thats what i want out of passing, to be seen and appreciated as the transgirl i am. of course, that relies on people knowing what it means to be trans. if no one notices, this is fine also, although it can lead to problems later. still, if someone says 'scuse me miss?', i am ver' happy to say the least hehe

[Joanne f]

Seeing that i have used the expression I suppose i had better stick my oar in (who was that saying no thank you, i have your number).
I am wandering if we are missing something here , should we really be looking for an agreed concept of the meaning of passing in Cd terms as there are many types of Cds on there.
If we came to some sort of conclusion of what passing is then that is like setting a standard which some might pass easily while others may feel like they will never reach that standard, i do not want to think that i have passed a certain standard of what the Cding community has set for me just so that i can think ,do you except me now i have passed your test .
I know that i have been guilty of using this expression but have now had a rethink on it and wondering if i should ban myself from thinking in those terms , or in some other term that i am just missing at the moment .


joanne


now i bet you wish i had not put my oar in

[Nicki B]

BTW I havn't read in any of your post how you voted.

I'm in complete agreement with Julie.

Passing means, well, passing: being taken for a member of the sex opposite your birth sex/gender without question. That's what it's meant for the approximately 30 years that I've been in touch with the TG community.

TBH, this is the ONLY place where I've ever come across the suggestion that it's anything else, but the poll results are now quite clear and do explain much of the confusion/irritation in some past threads.. TBH, particularly reading some of the comments here, it feels as if people are sometimes unconsciously redrawing the definition, because they don't think they can meet it?

As far as I'm concerned, being tolerated or accepted is not the same as passing, but in my opinion, it is more desireable, and for most of us, attainable.

I wholeheartedly agree...

The word "passing" has a negative connotation (from the POV of someone TS), because it implies a level of deception (i.e., that we are passing ourselves off as something other than what we are).

I think it implies that for all of us - or at least it does for both the first and second definitions in the poll..



But with 170 votes now, it's perfectly clear that almost half of us define 'passing' as not being noticed (although in their comments, they often more confused); only half that number think it's being believed to have been born the opposite sex to what we were.
(Note I'm using the definition of sex=physical characteristics, NOT=gender.)

[curse within]

joanne. I can relate to that, Some of us are merely part time CDer's and would never want to carry a femme look into our male appearance IE surgery and its expense and some of us were not lucky enough to have the femme appearance naturally to prevent surgery to get that sometimes desired look as PASSING .As part of the urge I do want and have the need to pass I hope it doesn't over come me in time and out weigh my male needs to stay manley in apperance . I have gone through some major stress here in these past 6 months and altho slim prior I had a bit of a beer belly from my heavy drinking days needless to say that is gone now , I am no longer stressed but I have lost my appetite I think my stomach has shrunk but I am loving the fact that I have gone down a few sizes. I will stay with my answer to be accepted and comfortable.

[Sam-antha]

I plumped straight off for #2 - not noticed- but with qualifications in terms of #3, the need to feel comfortable. I must be comfortable out dressed amongst other people.
Reading thro the replies and answers I came to realise that while sometimes being comfortable is the major factor---- for example my thread "Out with my bike", without makeup etc, there are occassions in town or amongst people in the country when being taken as total female is my aim. It is not enough to be accepted, for instance as a male, dressed as female.
I dunno, most times I do not care that much so long as I am comfy with the presentation (- is age/done it so often, a factor here -?) but it would be nice to be perfect.