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Thread: How do you know if you are transgendered or just CD?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roberta Llyan View Post
    Everything and anything else is just a male in woman's clothing probably seeking some kind of "thrill." And most likely "getting off" on the idea of doing it secretly which adds to the stimulation/eroticism. Trans-genders are not doing it to "get their rocks off."
    Damn. You mean wearing my expensive tailored suit and nice heels, with my hair and makeup given the most attention for a genuine business meeting is just a thrill?

    *grumbles* Better go find some nylons and lace panties then.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by pruella View Post
    Damn. You mean wearing my expensive tailored suit and nice heels, with my hair and makeup given the most attention for a genuine business meeting is just a thrill?

    *grumbles* Better go find some nylons and lace panties then.
    You're pulling what I said out of context. Go back and read the entire post. I was talking about it being heart, mind, and soul. And that is what it is. If you are not trans-gender in that manner then you are not TG but just a man in women's clothing.

  3. #53
    Big Sister Nicki B's Avatar
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    To me, someone who cross-dresses fits under the umbrella term 'transgender'..

    And can we PLEASE not use the word 'just' so much - it's unnecessarily judgemental. Divisions between ourselves help none of us.
    Nicki

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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roberta Llyan View Post
    You're pulling what I said out of context.
    I know I know! I was poking ribs!

    Although it was a thrill wearing my nice suit for the first time! When I asked at the presentation what their first impression was when I walked through the door, I got a lot of compliments, including CONFIDENT.

    Wooot

  5. #55
    Melora / Katie Melora's Avatar
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    I dont even know if my answer will get through to You after all of the previous answers, before me..
    No I have not read them ALL either.. I do not need to...
    The answer is simple..
    A TG = Is Any person who dresses as the other.. = Umbrella term
    Crossdresser = Is Any person who dresses as the other = Umbrella term
    Transvestite = Onr who showes in Puplic that S/HE is a TG/CD
    Transexuale= One who Changes ones sex..
    Also
    DragQueen = One who CDs for ARE and Entertainment.
    Katie

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicki B View Post
    To me, someone who cross-dresses fits under the umbrella term 'transgender'..
    Very much so, especially when you review the entomology!

    Goes for the Girls who dress as men too!

    And can we PLEASE not use the word 'just' so much - it's unnecessarily judgemental.
    B,b,but I've got, hmm maybe that's had, some great friends who are 'just men in womens clothes' and proud of it!

    I say 'had' cause their wives or girlfriends or worse, daughters, are vicious evil antisocial creatures who take these nice expressive people on shopping trips and outings, leave us 'friends' wondering if they have been kidnapped!

    I am DREADING my daughters getting old enough to DEMAND shopping trips. They already drag me around and insist I try things on all the time! Even my wife can be damn annoying at times!

    No one ever did that before I started transition.

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    I'm a gender enhanced person. So are you. There, you have your label. Now get dressed and go shopping.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by pruella View Post
    B,b,but I've got, hmm maybe that's had, some great friends who are 'just men in womens clothes' and proud of it!
    If they want to use the term about themselves, fine - the problem always comes when labels are applied to others and when a 'hierarchy' is implied.

    That has always caused unnecessary hurt and disharmony in this community?
    Nicki

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  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicki B View Post
    If they want to use the term about themselves, fine - the problem always comes when labels are applied to others and when a 'hierarchy' is implied.
    But it IS a valid description and IT IS acceptable when used in correct context. 'Cross Dressing' IS only a person of one gender who expresses an appearance of the other gender, usually going to a LOT of effort to do so, with a lot of pride behind the process.

    Woman in Menswear is just as common, but just not so noticed.

    I just truly wish all the 'private' CDs would get out into the street and make that end of the spectrum as visible and celebrated as possible.

    My daughter was watching a show on TV yesterday about the Roman era. The Men were all in DRESSES - so she said!

    But that aside, we came back to the different between a CD and a TS.

    My personal expression is well stated about about CD.

    A TS has physiological issues to deal with, clothes do NOT make a TS, they merely ease a symptom of social indoctrination.

    I've also said many times before the border between a 'high level CD' and a 'low level TS' is so crossed that a person on that intersection may be far more confused and distressed than a CD or a TS a few inches away on their own scale.

    I can't imagine what it's like being on that intersect. I think many TS's pass through that intersect as they evolve, but getting stuck on it - well here there is the question of this topic.

    We can express the 'outer extremes' and identify that there is a scale and an intersection, but I suspect the OP was more concerned about their position STUCK in the intersection and looking for a direction - Four Roads - go back, turn left, turn right or go straight ahead.

    More discussion is needed to guide people who hit that cross road. I just don't know what I can add because my experience of such is extremely limited and I feel most people want to fall into a bucket, rather than be stuck in the middle.

    Maybe if we focus on making that intersection a happy place to be, that doesn't require confusion or 'decision' making to 'validate' oneself and their place, the issue of "Am I a TS or a CD" will go away of it's own, allowing those who are at the further ends of the spectrum ro travel as they go.

    That has always caused unnecessary hurt and disharmony in this community?
    Read your posting to me elsewhere and agree totally on the inventing of something to avoid prejudice. That is what I have and continue to support.

    It hurts those who are vulnerable a lot less when EVERYONE speaks the same language.

    I think this topic in it's own is a variant on that issue.

  10. #60
    Swans have more fun! sandra-leigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pruella View Post
    I've also said many times before the border between a 'high level CD' and a 'low level TS' is so crossed that a person on that intersection may be far more confused and distressed than a CD or a TS a few inches away on their own scale. [...]

    We can express the 'outer extremes' and identify that there is a scale and an intersection, but I suspect the OP was more concerned about their position STUCK in the intersection and looking for a direction - Four Roads - go back, turn left, turn right or go straight ahead.
    Thanks, Pruella, somehow I feel that what you wrote is getting closer to what I (the original poster) am talking about.

    However, some of the other recent postings by other posters have assumed that "transgender" means only "CD or TS".
    And what you wrote has implicit in it that "Crossdressing is over here, and TS is over there, and you might be moving between the two, but there is only CD City and TS City and the Road" -- which at least adds in "the road" into the possibilities.

    When I posted originally and in my follow-ups, I tried to be careful to distinguish between "transgender" (yes, an umbrella term) and "transsexual", as I am considering the possibility that I am one of the several forms of "transgender" who are not "transsexual". But for whatever reason, we really don't hear much about those other forms of transgender on this forum. Just look at how many of the New Member Introductions say that growing up they used to think that they were the only ones who ever did those things, and then reflect on how I must feel to come to this, one of the largest transgender forums in the world, and find even most of the people here only know of CD and TS, and I'm having to break my own trails off into Here Be Monsters territory by myself.

    I don't know what I am. Maybe it would be easier if I just adopted "gender enhanced person" and left it at that. But reflect back to my original question of "What do I tell my mother?" -- "gender enhanced person" isn't very informative. At this point in my life, telling my mother that I was a "gender confused person" would probably be more accurate.

    I don't feel like I am "transsexual": I've never had that sense that I was "born in the wrong body", I don't yearn for my lost girlhood, dolls are just "things" to me (I did go through the phase of little plastic Cowboys and Indians, though, and on the balance my sympathies were with the Indians.) Yes, I did sometimes play with the girls at recess, but that wasn't because I felt like I was one of them: it had more to do with the guys deciding that I wasn't one of the "guy crowd". (I don't remember any of them who actually disliked me, but if you are bright and generally non-athletic and not "cool" and not the class clown... well, at that age, being ignored is social torment enough.)

    I don't feel that I am "two-spirited", at least not in the meaning of having substantially distinct male and female personalities and switching between the two of them.

    I might perhaps be technically "androgynous", but I am socialized to that implying more absence of distinguishing male or female characteristics, rather than possessing both, with "hermaphodite" implying the possession of both male and female characteristics (but "hermaphodite" is perhaps too strong for my situation.)


    But returning more directly to the original question: here in the forum, we have relatively good ideas of what "crossdresser" is, and of what "transsexual" is, but all those other possibilities are largely Terra Incognita. If one does not feel that one is Transsexual (in the sense of "really" being a member of "the other" sex), then how does one know if one's feelings are within the "normal range" of "crossdressers" or if one is instead within one of the other less-known categories?


    In comparing myself to others in my social club, and seeing my willingness to "gender-bend", to be openly "a guy in a skirt" or similar, my tentative conclusion is that I am probably not within the typical range of crossdressing. But on the other hand, I'm not always clear on where cross-dressing ends and where TS begins: for example, if I were to become "24/7" non-op non-hormone "live as a woman", would that be definitely TS or would that be within the "typical range of crossdressing" or would that be a different category.... ?



    Addendum:

    I noticed that this topic is being followed by quite a number of readers, far more than I would have expected. If other people are finding themselves struggling with similar issues but do not feel comfortable posting about it, I welcome PMs. In particular, I'd be interesting in hearing from people who self-identify as something other than the CD or TS, even if you (like me) don't know what quite what it is that you do self-identify as.

    Also, I found an earlier thread in this sub-forum on a closely related topic,
    "How do you know?"
    started in May 2008 by Andre85. I haven't had time to read through all if it quite yet.
    Last edited by sandra-leigh; 02-10-2009 at 01:28 PM. Reason: added addendum

  11. #61
    Just an everyday girl Karen564's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GypsyKaren View Post
    I also don't see anything to suggest you're transsexual, but only you can answer that question. The clothes mean nothing to us, it's all about feelings, and we don't want anything to do with the wrong gender we got stuck with.

    Karen Starlene
    Personally, I agree with Karen on this, except I do like the clothes too and everything else that goes hand & hand with Womanhood.

    So from what I can tell based on what you originally posted, your a CD'r that has a breast fetish.. and maybe something more than that, but I'm not aware of any specific name you would call it, but I can't really see the point in it even if there was, what good would that do really.
    But I'm sure if you saw a psychiatrist, they could be more specific on what to call it after getting into your head to find out why you feel the way you do.

    Karen

  12. #62
    Member Kelli Michelle's Avatar
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    Labels help people identify themselves or others, rather than go into an in-depth discussion of what they are about. But one has to be careful of them because so much depends on the other persons perception of what the label means to them.

    Telling one's mom, though, needs to be thought out, of course. It certainly will take longer to explain to her than it would to most people on this site. Labels may not be appropriate. She may see them all in the same light, which may be bad. If it was me. I would explain what you do, how you feel, and that because there are many labels and perceptions, you felt it appropriate to describe rather than label what it is you do. I would also re-iterate key points that are important to you or may be to her. If she wants a label at some point, just do the best you can do (lots of food for thought in these posts) and be as honest as you can.
    The way I see it, if you want the rainbow, you gotta put up with the rain.
    - Dolly Parton

  13. #63
    Swans have more fun! sandra-leigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelli Michelle View Post
    Telling one's mom, though, needs to be thought out, of course. It certainly will take longer to explain to her than it would to most people on this site. Labels may not be appropriate. She may see them all in the same light, which may be bad. If it was me. I would explain what you do, how you feel, and that because there are many labels and perceptions, you felt it appropriate to describe rather than label what it is you do.
    Good points.

    It would, I think, help if somehow I had a better idea of where my personal boundaries are, of what "is" or "is not" me, of what I would or would not do, gender-wise or sexually. Various things I have thought of in passing, I have more or less come to the conclusion that, "Well, that isn't something I'm particularly interested in, but if the circumstances actually came up, with the right people around me, I might be willing to give it a try". I suppose it's not much of an "identity"... "Good old wishy-washy Charlie Brown".

    I'm not saying the above with the expectation that "If I could just find the right label, I would know who I am!!": just another indication of how hard it can be to figure out what one's gender is. Maybe it isn't any one thing in particular.

    Just what I need... to found a new school, Gender Existentialism

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by pruella View Post
    But it IS a valid description and IT IS acceptable when used in correct context. 'Cross Dressing' IS only a person of one gender who expresses an appearance of the other gender, usually going to a LOT of effort to do so, with a lot of pride behind the process.
    My particular problem was with the use of the word 'just' - it implies lesser, as if those who identify as CD, or even 'men in frocks' don't also suffer as a result?

    But 'Cross Dressing' simply describes a behaviour - I think it's an erroneous assumption to believe that it is never linked to a degree of gender dysphoria?

    IME, GD comes in different levels (and forms, which may or may not be mixed together). There is no simple binary, of CD or TS - there is a spectrum of feelings and behaviours?
    Nicki

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    Quote Originally Posted by tess-leigh View Post
    Thanks, Pruella, somehow I feel that what you wrote is getting closer to what I (the original poster) am talking about.
    Welcome

    but I am socialized to that implying more absence of distinguishing male or female characteristics, rather than possessing both, with "hermaphodite" implying the possession of both male and female characteristics (but "hermaphodite" is perhaps too strong for my situation.)
    Not that simple. 'Hermaphrodite' isn't just characteristics, it's physiological not psychological. Intersexed is a better term and Intersexed XX/XY would be possibly the most accurate. (That's me BTW!) It's not a lot of fun either.

    Just on the 'Transgender' term, I think people use it to either avoid falling into a box, between boxes or who are in denial of their true box, whilst trying to adopt another but avoiding being flamed for faking what they are not!

    <snip> If one does not feel that one is Transsexual (in the sense of "really" being a member of "the other" sex), then how does one know if one's feelings are within the "normal range" of "crossdressers" or if one is instead within one of the other less-known categories?
    Well that leaves you with:

    Androgynous
    Transvestite (Sexual fetish)
    Intersexed
    Queer
    Genderbender

    You don't sound like a genderbender, but then again maybe you are, in which case get out there and bend! At least the next TS to follow you will have an easier time

    Intersexed you either know, don't know or need to be tested. Most IS people never know.

    Andro - maybe. Nothing wrong with that. If you feel neither Male or Female, or even feel you enjoy both aspects, then do just that - enjoy both.

    Some Ando people I know go to work as a Man, live at home as a Woman and split the genders between two or more social circles. Too complicated for me


    In comparing myself to others in my social club, and seeing my willingness to "gender-bend", to be openly "a guy in a skirt" or similar,
    Scottish Men wear skirts all the time! [*ducks*]

    Romans and Gladiators wore them too. So did Kings and Knights

    my tentative conclusion is that I am probably not within the typical range of crossdressing.
    Genderbenders are *rolls eyes* Crossdressers with attitude

    Kinda like Punk or Goth is to normal people. It's all clothes at the end of the day

    But on the other hand, I'm not always clear on where cross-dressing ends and where TS begins: for example, if I were to become "24/7" non-op non-hormone "live as a woman", would that be definitely TS or would that be within the "typical range of crossdressing" or would that be a different category.... ?
    I think you example would put you on the border of CD/TS and either have people very confused, or you could be confused.

    Of course, you might not be confused and sit on that overlap of the circles of the CD and the TS group.

    I think your only confusion is trying to find a term to describe you that is 'accepted' and 'defined' socially.

    This is something you probably need to decide more than us define for you. Cross Dresser is simplest At least it doesn't carry the 'sex' element.

    I noticed that this topic is being followed by quite a number of readers, <snip> In particular, I'd be interesting in hearing from people who self-identify as something other than the CD or TS, even if you (like me) don't know what quite what it is that you do self-identify as.
    I think anyone feeling like that should just press 'Reply' and rattle on for at least 250 words!

    At least then we might find some foundation, or even 'worse' we might coin a new term!

    No one seems to 'bite' in this segment of the site (thank god) and I keep saying Crossdressers are nice people who distance themselves from the very confusing 'TV' term that could mean a range of things - it seems - depending on where you are!

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicki B View Post
    My particular problem was with the use of the word 'just' - it implies lesser, as if those who identify as CD, or even 'men in frocks' don't also suffer as a result?
    I thought it was taken for granted that a Crossdresser coming out is no more or less difficult than a TS coming out!

    CDs in my view are no more or less than a TS, just entirely different. I think most TS would agree "if only I could just wear Opposite Gender clothes and feel relaxed or less fatigued" but I'm afraid as Karen has said, and I've said - clothes do not make the TS Clothes usually make the CD.

    That doesn't make either any more or less.

    But 'Cross Dressing' simply describes a behaviour - I think it's an erroneous assumption to believe that it is never linked to a degree of gender dysphoria?
    Gender Dusphoria is such a weird term. Crossdressing is a psychological need, maybe sometimes a want. Psychology is behavior, but don't let that mean that 'therapy' will cure someone. Crossdressing isn't something that needs to be cured. Most CDs I know, it's a hobby, or a past time, or just an expression of mood and feeling.

    I've also said some go to a lot of effort too, sometimes more than a TS!

    IME, GD comes in different levels (and forms, which may or may not be mixed together). There is no simple binary, of CD or TS - there is a spectrum of feelings and behaviours?
    TS isn't so much behavior. CD I think would be both feeling and behavior. CDers might be as simple as 'around the house' like anyone wears PJs all day. Others might like the lime light of being Famous in the Public Eye.

    Unlike a TS. A TS can't be 'part time' it's and all or none situation. Someone could be Androgynous TS, whishing to change genital structure, but still retain the expression of both genders. Just like an IS

  17. #67
    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pruella View Post
    But it's not a mental illness. !
    I never said it was...we're talking about the same thing...its in the DSM as a disorder...we'll see what happens next DSM
    Quote Originally Posted by pruella View Post
    It is important to note though, that many TS people can have, and it is typical, to have one or more mental illness conditions. Depression is a mental illness. Treating a TS for depression symptoms will not treat the Gender Dysphoria. If the GID isn't treated, then the depression remains, even if you take 10,000 megagram of Anti Depressants each day. !
    Right...great point.
    The total failure of antidepressants for me was one of my steps to realizing who and what i was. i never heard of gender dysphoria, or GID...i just knew that all day every day all i could think about was how much i hated being a guy....and i still punish myself for not figuring it out

    many girls say they "know" or "knew" they were a woman since they were very young. this is one way to experience trannsexualism...they didnt try to fit in or cope...they accepted it right away or very early on, i think that's great

    for me, i experienced it differently, i totally kept it to myself, i totally denied that i was a woman, , it evolved, I knew i wanted to be a woman, and constantly wished i was a woman... ...i developed zero self worth and i accepted my fate (why shouldnt i? i'm worthless i thought)
    but i wanted to fit in sooooo badly, i wanted to make lots of money to prove i really was a man. i was working 80 hr weeks, going out and hanging with the guys all night....ugh

    Quote Originally Posted by pruella View Post
    The difference between being TS and CD is simple. One is what you want to do - dress - and you will talk about dressing. One is what you are - the clothes are just a social convenience.

    Firstly you don't 'dress' and wonder if you are TS. You can wear anything you like, but you will still be TS. !
    maybe you are technically correct..but i dont think its really simple at all....i crossdressed to calm my anxiety...i thought this was as good as it gets!! was i a crossdresser then and a ts now??? would you say that "feeling like a crossdresser" precludes being a woman (a ts woman) that's how this thread got started...many repressed ts folks start out cd'ing...like me...so if i seem defensive...sorry i know i did it to myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by pruella View Post
    here's a tidbit from one....she said something like ..."i feel like i was on a long train ride, <snip>"
    Pretty terrible analogy. Well from my perspective it is. You don't 'get off at a stop' and suddenly you are a woman. !
    actually i still think its a good analogy, its not a big deal...but my paraphrase was unfair to her.....she was not saying she "became a woman" at the end, although my comment made it seem like she did...

    she was talking about the legal and physical transition itself, not the mental part...she thought the transition phase consumed her and she lost sight of important things...but she was also very happy she did it....

    by the way, i read a book by annie dillard called "for the time being"...very cool book about life as a journey that on one level is pretty depressing, but i think in the end i found it very uplifting. i think it would be interesting to you based on some of your posts.
    Quote Originally Posted by pruella View Post
    What is a Post Op Woman?

    I know what a Post Op M2F Transsexual is - she is a woman. !
    agreed. what's the question? it's just shorthand, cmon, you knew what i meant...jeepers ....i'm getting picked apart!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by pruella View Post
    Wow, mid life crisis! Traumatic Event! Intense period of life and some major change occurs.

    I read all of those in some people who try and tell me they are TS! What's interesting is that only 20% of people who front up and follow the 2 year RLT, Therapy, Approval for Surgery, Save the bucks - actually HAVE Surgery. The other 80% realise at the last minute, that they have been kidding themselves. (The 80/20 is quoted as coming from CHX in London) !
    ...the dawning on me that my constant desire to be a woman was around since i was a little kid, it manifested in lots of dressing, but as i realized it was something different than the clothes, that i was feeling MORE out of place as a man than ever, that i couldnt seem to focus on anything else...this is when i started to open up to the fact that i really did feel i was a woman ....THIS WAS the traumatic event...it felt like a torrent coming out of me....it was the OMG moment and i started thinking of my kids and my job and everything about my life....there was no other traumatic event, things were going great...i was really doing a good job keeping this all under the radar....until i wasnt.

    wow that 80/20 stat is amazing....i'm in a pretty large therapy group and i've seen some ts folk go back and forth... but not 80/20...and mostly they are doing it for financial or "family " issues though. In the year and a half i've been in my group 2 girls have gone back to "guy mode" and one of those came back to herself....knowing them i am certain they are both women in their own minds..one of my best friends had ffs years ago and then freaked out over her kids, and untransitioned for a couple months...she restarted her transition though and is just doing great and is a great girlfriend to me..

    Quote Originally Posted by pruella View Post
    Guy Just Don't Do This?[/B]
    What is it guy's don't do?
    Dress as Woman? ..........
    The only thing guys don't do is have sex without a penis! !
    that was just my inner dialogue at the time...thats how i thought of it...i was saying guys dont do this.......and so i felt ashamed and guilty when i thought of being a woman...i didnt distinguish between CD/TV/TS at time but i still felt guilty and ashamed....

    and i cant wait to have sex without a penis !!!

    by the way, u mentioned what you did to be one of the guys
    I did all that drinking and drugs you missed out on...but i missed out on the group masturbation.....
    and frankly i'm still very sad and bitter about some of the things i went through as i repressed myself.
    Quote Originally Posted by pruella View Post
    The only things slowing you down are you. No one else.
    The Gender Dysphoria will haunt you till you accept you are not Dyshphoric any more. Hormones and SRS aren't really going to do that for you. !
    i know. i know, i know....i'm an obsessive, anxious, worrier, with no self esteem what can i say?

    over the last year, i've accepted more and more "myself"....but this has been a process ....i feel like i still have work to do in accepting myself..i had myself faked out pretty good...and i only started hrt in july, so what i'm finding is i'm having days like today where i feel good and i'm feeling like me...i feel confident and alive/....and moving forward. for example next week i get to do another week of electrolysis!! my 2nd clearing yay!!!! getting the physical part moving is very helpful to me on the mental part of my transition.

    other days, i get to overthinking everything, i feel overwhelmed and question myself or start worrying about things out of my control (like that i'm 6'2 -and will be a freak) and as you said, dysphoria haunts me and other stuff gets in my head and i forget that i am starting out on what is my true meaning in this world...i'm afraid of the consequences of changing my outside gender, i am my own worst enemy..there!! i admitted it!!

    and for the record...i feel that not knowing if you are cd or ts or something in between is perfectly reasonable...just like "knowing" it is, i've said it before, this is not easy stuff and we were raised in different cultures and circumstances that impacted how we coped with things...and that goes for every type of "gender blessed" person out there..we should all stick together and enjoy our diverse and special community

    thnx as always for the comments pruella

    michele

  18. #68
    Kisses! KM Krystyna_Marie's Avatar
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    Y'all have given me so much to think about!!! What a great discussion. Thanks for posting this, I'm in self-discovery mode myself right now, and I'm going to be studying this thread for a while.

    Kisses!

    KM

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    out and about gagirl1's Avatar
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    i've been avoiding this thread b/c i was worried i might discover i'm not transgender (life is full of doubts), but now that i am sure of myself, and comfortable with saying i long to be a woman, i want to offer a simple piece of information about being trans vs. crossdressing:

    being transgender has nothing to do with the clothes you wear.

    through and through, being trans is about wanting to be a woman or man, not on a temporary basis while dressed as whichever sex. i went through most of your list of criteria, and found a common thread: clothes/appearance. i feel the breast question mostly mirrors your want to fill out a bra, and feel comfortable while in female form, but it sounds to me like you want to be able to go back to your male side. transgender people rarely want to go back (mostly never, except for monetary reasons). i'd say to anyone questioning his or her gender, if you start to get dysphoric (you'll know when) on a regular basis, and the clothes really don't make the difference, then you might have some more exploring to do.

    these thoughts are quite common when gender bending. it's a wonderful discovery of oneself (trans or cd), but also painful and confusing.

    to give some perspective on where i stand, i hate it when people ask "how often do you dress," inferring i'm only female by the clothes i wear. i'm female 24 hours of every day, but don't feel the need to prove that all day. this is where i think i differ from many crossdressers. i'm not changing my clothes, i'm changing my body, and that's the difference.

    oh, and on a side note, you don't have to put yourself into any gender binary. many genderqueer people express themselves as all genders (not just the 2, mind you), and that is who they are: not male, not female, but just happy with themselves. might be something worth looking into.

    oh, one more thing: "born in the wrong body," and "trapped in a ______'s body" are the worst descriptions of being trans i can think of. it's an extreme oversimplification, perpetuated by the media. i have not met one trans person who feels those two quotes describe them implicitly. just doesn't cover everything.
    Last edited by gagirl1; 02-11-2009 at 03:00 AM.

  20. #70
    Swans have more fun! sandra-leigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pruella View Post
    You don't sound like a genderbender, but then again maybe you are, in which case get out there and bend! At least the next TS to follow you will have an easier time [...]


    Genderbenders are *rolls eyes* Crossdressers with attitude

    Kinda like Punk or Goth is to normal people. It's all clothes at the end of the day
    I suspect that what you refer to as "genderbender" is perhaps the term I know alternatively as "genderqueer" or (in its more militant form) "genderf*ck". A couple of my acquaintances (met a few times, good friends of several of the club members) do "tough drag" -- really crazy clothes, drag shows in beards (even if it requires pasting on glitter to imitate beards if they don't happen to have one at the time.) Our fellow forum member Buffalo Bill deliberately goes out in skirt and big beard and has no interest in getting rid of the beard: now that's a real challenge to traditional culture. I don't think he does it to shock, though, and I admire that he is "being himself".... so perhaps that technically places him as "genderqueer" but not as "genderf*ck" (which implies more using gender to make a scene.)

    I do "gender-bend", at least in the meaning that would be used around where I live -- that is, I do go out in mixed gender mode, such as with my male face and hair (probably with little or no makeup), but wearing a skirt, or wearing a dress... and quite likely wearing forms (C or DD or even G -- while still facially a guy.) Lots of people have seen me that way -- e.g., less than a week ago, I went like that to the "premiere" shopping mall in the city towards late afternoon (fair number of people), and didn't care who noticed that the person wearing the long gray wool skirt was {apparently} male.

    A year ago, I took a couple of flights between some of Canada's busiest airports -- and I traveled in long skirts, forms and blouses... on the way back, the blouse was one with "pockets" at the bust, so it was obvious that I (a male) had a "bust". The airlines and safety authority had no trouble with me being like that, and most of the people in the airports didn't pay attention, not even when I was in the male washroom. I got some smiles, and I didn't get any frowns, and some people did small courtesies for me that wouldn't normally be done for males. I wasn't attempting to "fool" anyone, and I got treated with kindness.

    I often get treated with kindness when I go out as a guy with something obviously feminine, even when the most obvious "tell" is just my bra showing through my shirt (yeah, including sometimes deliberately on my part, like wearing a white bra under a thin near-white blouse so that the shape will be obvious.)

    So in the sense of "genderbender" as someone who deliberately mixes male and female signals, especially female clothes without disguising my head as female, then Yup, I do that. Wearing a simple skirt to the grocery store or off on errand or to the farmer's market feels natural to me. I have an easier time with more or less solid colours: Fancier skirts, more ornate, more flowery, or puffy or multi-layered, or more eye-catching... those are a lot harder for me to wear as a guy (but I would wear my plain black pencil skirt as a guy.) There is a mental filter somewhere in me, that something like a jeans skirt is just a skirt, that a guy like me can wear one and not mean anything by it (other than that he is willing to challenge convention a little), but that some skirt designs are decidedly "female" skirt designs, things that I could wear if I am completely Dressed, but not when I am "a guy". Sometimes I challenge myself by wearing something a bit outside my comfort range (a tactic that worked wonderfully for me for tights under my work or public clothes, that got me well past the idea that all I could wear was plain black or plain brown "which could be mistaken for socks")


    If I am not wearing a tight sweater, wearing my DD
    forms "as a guy" doesn't make me feel out of place... if anyone notices them, that's fine with me because it feels like the augmented shape is pretty much the shape that I should have, and that what people see there is more the "real me" than if I don't have the forms. When I'm out in public (not at work), even apparently dressed as a guy, a DD to G bust on me is somehow a truth rather than a lie or a fakery... that shape is part of me -- maybe not something I "flaunt" as a guy, but something like, "Heck, let 'em notice, it's just me and they might as well get used to it."


    Thus, I differ from a lot of cross-dressers in that I do not train to seem to be as much of a woman as can be acted: having someone know that I am (more or less) a male is not a problem to me, at least not when I am in that mood -- though I'm sure not about to lose sleep over the possibility that I might have somehow convinced someone that the person they saw was female. I don't mind being thought to be female -- but at the same time, I am not ashamed that someone might know full well that I am (apparently) male and see me in female clothes with an (apparent) bust. Darn right that "he" wears womens' clothes.

    And I've met so many people that think I look good in women's clothes, and whom look forward to seeing what I'll wear next. How could I disappoint my fans?

  21. #71
    Senior Member Kelsy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by micheletv View Post
    the smartest tg folks i know call it a journey....just remember its your journey and try to be honest with yourself and it should work out for the best
    I just finished Jennifer Boylan's two books inwhich she describes her journey.
    There is absolutely no question that Jennifer was transexual but she didn't know that early on! She crossdressed for years and constantly tied to discover who or what she was. She even desired for the feeling to go away so she could be a "normal' man.

    Putting a test to wether you are or are not poses the danger of setting up an elite groups. That is why I prefer the all encompassing term Trangendered because we are all in this together. It is a course of discovery and we are all somewhere along that path

    Kelsy
    Born female intended

    " Don't die with your music still in you!"

  22. #72
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    I PM'd you on the first two blocks - felt it didn't need repeating, but for the sake of others "Me Too"

    But then you asked me a question! I was trying to avoid comment!

    Quote Originally Posted by micheletv View Post
    <snip> i crossdressed to calm my anxiety...i thought this was as good as it gets!! was i a crossdresser then and a ts now??? would you say that "feeling like a crossdresser" precludes being a woman (a ts woman) that's how this thread got started...many repressed ts folks start out cd'ing...like me...
    Yes and No. What a complex paragraph. Here goes:

    You evolved. It's really that simple. Just like learning math or reading, you start with simple individual elements, they are satisfying and you get results, so you want to discover more. (Well some people do!)

    It's like cooking. You make a plain cake, the you think if I add Banana, I can have Banana Cake, then you you try Banana and Chocolate, then add more liquids to make self saucing.

    It's evolution. You have to have a starting point. Some start at 4 years old and adults say "Awww how sweet, pretending" others avoid any acknowledgment because of the environment they are brought up in, but denial is repression and repressions always impresses eventually.

    Depression is common, depressions comes as a symptom of repression. You change your focus from the repression to the depressions and worthlessness, and then you slash your wrists or hang yourself or shoot yourself or just in the frozen river.

    You might be lucky, have space to unrepress, but really for what appears to be the majority it's either just as repressing and eventually explodes into a life of expression or transition.

    Would I say Being a Crossdresser precludes being a Woman?

    I asked the question in a seminar to people mostly not exposed to the TG spectrum on Monday "What is a Woman?"

    The answers I got back were all pretty much "The ability to bear a child"

    Ouch! Maybe time for a thread

    agreed. what's the question? it's just shorthand, cmon, you knew what i meant...jeepers ....i'm getting picked apart!!!
    Like a hen to the oven! Gravy anyone!


    Ok I just gotta do this next bit!:
    <snip> i was feeling MORE out of place as a man than ever, that i couldnt seem to focus on anything else...this is when i started to open up to the fact that i really did feel i was a woman
    OK, so what does it feel like to be a woman? What base line comparison have you got that we can use? Have you been a woman before? How do you compare a man to a woman?

    Interesting questions. Evidently it's not clothes and makeup. These have changed from gender to gender over the centuries. Men use to wear tunics over tights with knee high boots. Now women do. Go figure.

    Maybe past lives have something to do with this process, and as we become more enlightened we become more aware of the memories and signals from our individual past lives?

    wow that 80/20 stat is amazing....i'm in a pretty large therapy group and i've seen some ts folk go back and forth... <snip>
    Yep, many stories to tell of all kinds of people. And the Melbourne Transsexual M2F that then become F2M and says the system ruined his life! HIS life! He blames the medical professionals for butchering HIS body. Hmmm.


    i was saying guys dont do this.......and so i felt ashamed and guilty when i thought of being a woman...i didnt distinguish between CD/TV/TS at time but i still felt guilty and ashamed....
    But how do you know guys don't?

    Just look at the 'TV' segment. (Clarification: Guys who dress up for sexual arousal and deny being anything other that Straight.)

    They are Macho Men who live life as a man, but hey. What can I say. I really don't want to get flamed again for lack of context.

    CD's don't have the denial issue. They might at first, but like TS, it's evolution. It takes time to relearn and to accept yourself, just like anyone else has to accept you.

    and i cant wait to have sex without a penis !!!
    That almost sounds fetish! or Fantasy! I just can't wait to sort out the inner and outer conflicts I currently have. They are slowly working.

    I guess my issue is, being Intersexed, had I not been modified at birth I might well have accepted both sexes and genders. But there is no basis upon which I can compare.

    Maybe in my next life

    by the way, u mentioned what you did to be one of the guys I did all that drinking and drugs you missed out on...but i missed out on the group masturbation.....
    and frankly i'm still very sad and bitter about some of the things i went through as i repressed myself.
    I don't think you should be sad or bitter with yourself. It's a self preservation mechanism, it's perfectly natural for a human to adapt to their environment or perish.

    I adapted to my environment but as it changed, I was able to readapt. Now I'm evolving

    i know. i know, i know....i'm an obsessive, anxious, worrier, with no self esteem what can i say?
    The last one you can fix by boiling water (Steam get it!)

    Obsessive, well, why not be? How can you not be? You like me spent most of our life so far Obsessing about meeting Social Perception. Obsessing so much it become a disorder in it's own right.

    Hows THAT for an answer!

    Anxious
    Comes from fear. Fearing the unknown. The only things you can know are what you experience and what you think. You can KNOW what decision you are going to make and what actions you will carry out, but you can NOT know if that decision and action is going to end positively.

    Usually well thought out decisions work positively

    Obnoxious Oh wait, you didn't say that, you are still denying that part I see.

    Worrying This again comes from fear. Not the fear of the unknown but the fear of self doubt about decisions and actions.


    over the last year, i've accepted more and more "myself"....but this has been a process ....i feel like i still have work to do in accepting myself..i had myself faked out pretty good...
    Yes, it is. First you have to reprogram all those habits and automatic pilot functions you have put in place over many years. They can't just be switched off in many cases.

    OK I went socially from 'sad bloke' to 'happy woman' literally over night, but that's probably more to do with what Plan A was than Plan B.

    Thank goodness I chose Plan B.

    and i only started hrt in july, so what i'm finding is i'm having days like today where i feel good and i'm feeling like me...i feel confident and alive/....and moving forward.
    Yup me too! We should exchange notes Hehehe:

    Are mine bigger than yours! *giggle*

    As I was getting into the showed my wife said "Wow your legs and bum are really looking so feminine now."

    I was looking down and thinking "yeah if only ..."


    for example next week i get to do another week of electrolysis!! my 2nd clearing yay!!!! getting the physical part moving is very helpful to me on the mental part of my transition.
    I had Laser on Friday and was so swollen over the weekend it was quite distressing. I will have to discuss this with the clinic because I have never had such a bad reaction. I even have small flakes of skin falling off and still have tender spots.

    Then again, it may well be perfect. It is finally starting to feel softer and less shadowy again. Even though my shadow was very very limited till mid Jan. I delayed by 4th treatment.

    other days, i get to overthinking everything, i feel overwhelmed and question myself or start worrying about things out of my control
    So does the Cross Dresser who wants to be out in public too. But ...

    (like that i'm 6'2 -and will be a freak)
    I'm 6 foot, always wear at least 4 inch heels. Mind you I've seen plenty of 6 foot and above women around the shopping centre. A few I look up to even in heels!

    Oh I wish I could be them!

    i'm afraid of the consequences of changing my outside gender, i am my own worst enemy..there!! i admitted it!!
    And now you can deal with it! The only thing to fear, is fear itself.

    (Karen, SHUDUP! I know I fear Surgical procedures! But it ain't getting me to SRS any fast!)

    and for the record...i feel that not knowing if you are cd or ts or something in between is perfectly reasonable...
    I really don't see it as an issue, for the individual.

    But what has been said by Tess and a few others now, is that it's important to them to define themselves to other people.

    I agree. And I spent an hour trying to explain the Gender Spectrum to a group of Student Counselors on Monday!

    We constantly hear "I don't believe in labels" and then in the next sentence "Well I'm a Crossdressing Bi Male"

    Labels Counter: 3
    - Crossdressing
    - Bi
    - Male

    Some TS's are worse!

    Look at me: TS M2F IS Lesbian 'Hermaphrodite' Woman with Male Attributes too.

    Labels: 7

    <snip>that goes for every type of "gender blessed" person out there..we should all stick together and enjoy our diverse and special community
    Yeah right, I wish! The problem comes down to label interpretation, some people thinking they are better than others, a lack of tolerance within the diverse community itself because as more people make more connections, more intolerance is going to arise.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by gagirl1 View Post
    to give some perspective on where i stand, i hate it when people ask "how often do you dress," inferring i'm only female by the clothes i wear.
    I think you will find it's mostly men who are asking this question. It will be TV Fetishism men, or just plain men who are jaded in their marital relationships.

    Here's my list:

    If you fit any of these groups don't contact me:
    1. I'm a straight married male who's wife doesn't know I date T-Girls and I like sucking ****,
    2. I'm a Straight Married Male who wife doesn't know I dress, and can meet you but in Drab only
    3. I'm not gay or Bi, married, wife doesn't know, don't want to suck but like being sucked by a girl with a big clitty
    4. I'm a TS and like meeting people, my wife doesn't know and I'll be coming with a beard in a shirt and trousers
    5. I'm a TS, I want to meet other TS's who can bring clothes and makeup to help me look like a woman
    6. I can only come to your place on Wednesday night between 8pm and 9. My wife doesn't know.
    7. If I can't come to your home and meet your wife, kids and family and you say you are TS
    8. I'm Interesexed so fast track my SRS so I can have sex with a hot guy next Friday night and find out what its like to be a woman

    Here's my next big list:

    1a. ARE YOU DRESSED? Of course I fookin am, I'm as close to as TS as an IS person can get.
    Not to mention I don't want to get arrested when I go shopping.
    1b. DO THEY KNOW YOU DRESS? Yes of course my family does, my daughters pick my clothes and shop with me.
    And my partner and I share the wardrobe, I buy, she steals. Really.
    1c. ARE YOU GOING DRESSED? I'd be arrested if I was naked.
    2. WHAT ARE YOU WEARING? Usually CLOTHES, again I'd prolly get arrested without them.
    3. COME STAY IN MY HOTEL ROOM? Sure is it the Honeymoon or Presidential Suite - with Spa!
    4. Yes I can accommodate RG/GG's only. Unless you like children jumping all over you.
    5. Do you go out dress? Well yes, besides the fact I'm a WOMAN, I do go out dressed.
    6. Does your partner mind you dressing? We share a wardrobe, HELLO, did you read the profile below?

    How many of those have you heard?


    i'm female 24 hours of every day, but don't feel the need to prove that all day. this is where i think i differ from many crossdressers. i'm not changing my clothes, i'm changing my body, and that's the difference.
    That would be Transsexualism not Crossdressing. So yes I agree.

    Although one question: How do you PROVE you are female?

    oh, one more thing: "born in the wrong body," and "trapped in a ______'s body" are the worst descriptions of being trans i can think of. it's an extreme oversimplification, perpetuated by the media. i have not met one trans person who feels those two quotes describe them implicitly. just doesn't cover everything.
    I totally agree. Although many Transsexual fore bearers have this on their web sites and in their published books.

    I think the phrase has been taken as a means of 'description' for simplification. Mind you, I hear it from many 'newbie' TS people who are in midlife crisis and just want to have, or need, an extreme event to shake them up a bit.

    Although I think SRS is a bit too extreme if you ask me!

    Crossing the gender divide and living that life for a few years is harmless, really.

    Although, I am STUNNED as to the number of 'Men' who claim to be M2F, want to "live 24/7 as a woman" and yet refuse to cook, clean the house, change nappies, take the kids to school, do the grocery shopping, and beleive it or not - PREEN themselves every day! Well why should they, they have a wife to do that! They can chat online to blokes about penis and breasts!

    Yup, I find it amazing that many of this evolving category are so focused on needing Breasts and loving their penis!

    Someone will want to challenge me on this, if you do, PM me and I'll email you THOUSANDS (literally) of chatlogs. Most are from the last 12 months, an exponential growth. I can even give you the profiles of these people from when I first chat to them! Waste of time, mine, and yours!

    These people are NOT Crossdressers or Transsexuals!

    I doubt they even fit into the TG spectrum other than 'fantasy' and more likely to need a GLB support group than a TG support group!

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by tess-leigh View Post
    A couple of my acquaintances (met a few times, good friends of several of the club members) do "tough drag" -- really crazy clothes, drag shows in beards (even if it requires pasting on glitter to imitate beards if they don't happen to have one at the time.) Our fellow forum member Buffalo Bill deliberately goes out in skirt and big beard
    They don't have Scottish Ancestry do they

  25. #75
    out and about gagirl1's Avatar
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    pruella, i have no idea how to prove my gender. i bet if you asked alot of cisgender people, they wouldn't know either (assuming they knew that gender isn't about what is in between your legs).

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