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Thread: How do you know if you are transgendered or just CD?

  1. #76
    Silver Member noeleena's Avatar
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    hi... my back ground is scottish. name . Loch-head .. head of the loch . that all so means i can wear a kilt ...that is a part of my back ground ...a birth right if you like . that as a male is mine to take or be given .
    on the other detail i am a women as well . andro. a transfemale . who will all ways be in transition knowing i can never ever be a male or a women . yet being both .
    where does that put me . some one who will allways be different . . yet haveing been able to function as a male for some 50 years not a real male in some ways. yes . not every thing .........i am wired both male & female . i see things both ways as i did 45 years ago . not that i understood what was going on even at 10 i was different . so its all ways been there .
    Now .. i know i can live as a women as far as i can go . body wise i was happy with my body in the main as a male this is the hard bit i saw some things that i was not sure about the water works dept . yet i did not have my womb a delema . yes this then starts to sound contray . because i am thinking both ways at the same time ..try that on & see how hard that is then youll know what we go through . for some its i am a male i need to be a women its not like as has been said . a mid life crisies . for me thats bull ......shit .....i have had that leveled at me so i know ....no this is from birth well. conception really ..so we have other detail to go through .
    what i see is this only came out to me 2 years ago so now i have got it right . 59 years to get to know who i am & be able to live as me ... no one told me . no one said oh you are this or that . i mean ...NO...ONE...this came from in side , of me
    So the ?? s . are.. do we know really when asked who or what we are . some do others of us we dont for a very long time & it would be very worng . for us to assume that . we can help i know that ..oh dear this is & can of worms not one to be taken lightly.. what we need to remember is our lives are so different ....our back ground .s countys so much is different .. i am not a fan of the labels . what i see is people who are .. hopefully not like me .. who are different . & we can live as one group of people getting to know others & learning about who we are .......

    ...noeleena...
    So yes our understanding of who we are is now . how we get there that will depend on us as individuls .

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by gagirl1 View Post
    pruella, i have no idea how to prove my gender. i bet if you asked alot of cisgender people, they wouldn't know either (assuming they knew that gender isn't about what is in between your legs).
    And today at a seminar I was running to 6 women and 1 male, I asked just that!

    And you know what!

    Initially all the superficial perceptions were put forward, then there was 'but what about hysterectomy, or infertility or penectomy or ..."

    The conclusion from the 8 Human Resources team was that Gender is so ambiguous it doesn't and perhaps should not be used as a means of segregation or identification, at the very least in a work place.

    However that did not answer the question! Just how to deal with the symptoms of Gender!

    I've got another seminar in a few weeks, this bunch was really lively! So I'll hit them with the question again, out of curiosity more than anything else.

    I can tell you one thing though, the organization I'm providing the seminars for is really open and welcoming. The attitude and response to questions, even the hard ones I put to them, were really positive.

    They already have a great attitude to start with so giving broad knowledge and keys to things has been really positive.

  3. #78
    Junior Member Tgirl74's Avatar
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    living in the middle

    Pruella your seminars sound amazing! I applaud you for what you are doing for the community, it sounds very positive! Thank You.

    But you sound bitter and I feel like maybe you are letting a handful of bad experiences cause you to be quick to stereotype and define people and put them in your preconceived categories.

    I myself live in a state of in between, I remain living as a guy because part of me can feel so good this way,I am a fitness trainer, I'm great at what I do, I enjoy my job, my friends, my girl, life is pretty chill and pretty cool.Other times I feel so overly feminine, so relaxed like a deep of fresh air, I feel unbelievably natural, I am Jacinda,This is me. Feeling this way at times feels so perfect ....but it will get to a point when I miss feeling Tall,Strong,Hard,Sexy,Confident, Just Chillin and Kicking Ass!

    What am I?Who am I?How do I define this thing called my life?
    Pruella I'm sure you have an answer but for me I don't like the choices.I have a strong feminine energy flowing through my blood but I'm also the Tall Cool One and I'm built to please!


    making a choice.....one gender without the other would be an awful experience

    I need both

    we can be happy if we let ourselves be

    J
    Last edited by Tgirl74; 02-12-2009 at 01:18 PM.

  4. #79
    Swans have more fun! sandra-leigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noeleena View Post
    hi... my back ground is scottish. name . Loch-head .. head of the loch . that all so means i can wear a kilt
    A true story:

    One fine Saturday relatively early on in my Crossdressing career, I went to a moderately busy downtown park dressed in a short skirt (not scandalously so though), and a not-very-thick long sleeved top with decidedly female sleeves, and I had two layers of "add a cup inserts" taped to my chest... with the thinness of the top, if I was upright, the projection of the forms was distinct (but not large) -- you know, "boobs". I was (and I admit it) having an adolescent-type sexual rebellion day, where I wanted to be seen and thought of as an attractive woman (though I was in my early 40's at the time). I don't know whether anyone thought I was good-looking (in any way), but it was exhilarating.

    On the Monday, at work, one of my co-workers approached me, and said approximately, "I saw you on Saturday in the park; you crossed right in front of me", describing the time and location that left no doubt in my mind that he had indeed seen me pretty clearly. And he then followed up by saying (approximately) that "You must have been practicing your Scottish heritage", to which I replied, "Uh, yah, something like that." And that was that -- he's never mentioned it since, and if he ever mentioned it to someone else, it never got back to me.

    Now, that skirt I had on wasn't even close to a kilt, and he didn't mention the top at all, so he must have seen it for what it was and chosen to just tease me a little about it.


    My Scottish heritage: yes, my father's mother's side was Scottish, and I inherited some of my basic body type from her -- if you have ever heard the expression "big boned", then that's me! But no, I haven't ever worn a kilt: a real kilt requires a well-practiced effort to put on. Besides, we are still not certain which tartan I'm entitled to.

    The femme surname I use is one of the real surnames from my father's side of the family.

  5. #80
    Big Sister Nicki B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pruella View Post
    CDs in my view are no more or less than a TS, just entirely different. I think most TS would agree "if only I could just wear Opposite Gender clothes and feel relaxed or less fatigued" but I'm afraid as Karen has said, and I've said - clothes do not make the TS Clothes usually make the CD.
    It may not always be that clear-cut.

    Gender Dusphoria is such a weird term. Crossdressing is a psychological need, maybe sometimes a want.
    Have you ever, as IS, felt you were dysphoric?

    Unlike a TS. A TS can't be 'part time' it's and all or none situation. Someone could be Androgynous TS, whishing to change genital structure, but still retain the expression of both genders. Just like an IS
    Just because people don't express themselves fulltime, it doesn't mean they only feel that way part-time; it's always dangerous to generalise, or to label others?

    Quote Originally Posted by pruella View Post
    I asked the question in a seminar to people mostly not exposed to the TG spectrum on Monday "What is a Woman?"

    The answers I got back were all pretty much "The ability to bear a child"

    Ouch! Maybe time for a thread
    If you're going to tell a genetic woman who can't have children that she's 'not a woman', please let me know so I can make sure I'm not around at the same time...


    Quote Originally Posted by pruella View Post
    Intersexed is a better term and Intersexed XX/XY would be possibly the most accurate. (That's me BTW!) It's not a lot of fun either.
    So are you a chimera/mosaic? How did you come to find out?

    Or are you XXY or XXXY?
    Nicki

    [SIZE="1"]Moi?[/SIZE]

  6. #81
    morgan morgan pure's Avatar
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    Don't anyone here accuse Ms. Pruella of anything. She's realistic, and no dummy.

    This is why I keep calling for some more categories.

  7. #82
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    Damnit Nikki! I reply to you in the next message! Multiquote doesn't like requoting!

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan pure View Post
    Don't anyone here accuse Ms. Pruella of anything. She's realistic, and no dummy.

    This is why I keep calling for some more categories.
    Hey!! I'm not a Category! *giggle* I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm just me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tgirl74 View Post
    Pruella your seminars sound amazing! I applaud you for what you are doing for the community, it sounds very positive! Thank You.
    Thanks for the compliment. They came about because some students had a go at me in the street one day. I called the college to complain. They wanted me to come in an ID the kids and then refer to the police. I said "Give me 2 hours in a room with them!" So now I'm educating people on, well to be honest, most of it is common sense!

    I have to admit, I've been so welcomed in the administrative departments, it's quit a weird feeling going in with the attitude of "educating people on acceptance" when they are already accepting, so I've had to adjust my seminar to a more discussion style how a TS might feel, how you might feel, and some general knowledge.

    I wish I'd recorded yesterdays seminar cause at one stage something triggered me into the spiel of of SRS works. The guy was screwing up his face in sheer agony, the women were all smiling and completely supportive.

    But you sound bitter and I feel like maybe you are letting a handful of bad experiences cause you to be quick to stereotype and define people and put them in your preconceived categories.
    I have my bitterness, but that's in my personal mind, not my professional. I am one of those people who can leave 'personal' at the front door when leaving home.

    On the same token, there are to some degree categories for everything. Humans work on 'filing' things in boxes mentally so it's important to be able to guide people to find a 'best fit' otherwise they try and put square pegs in round holes!

    My experiences are my power, my adaptability and my passion. Be they negative or positive, even the worst negative can be turned into a positive. I often do Damage Control for corporates or celebrities and turning negatives into positives is always critical!

    I myself live in a state of in between, I remain living as a guy because part of me can feel so good this way,
    See I'm trying to give that option an opening. Although I think the outcome is inevitable the mere fact I was repressed by hypnosis and psychological therapy for so many years has perhaps caused an extreme inverse reaction. So I'm giving myself time, but at the same time, making myself a future.


    <snip>but it will get to a point when I miss feeling Tall,Strong,Hard,Sexy,Confident, Just Chillin and Kicking Ass!
    I've NEVER in my life felt male. I've always had to extrapolate how a male would act or react and then fall into that stereotype. It never felt good, ut I never understood why.

    making a choice.....one gender without the other would be an awful experience
    How about being BOTH physically at the same time?

    You're wife wanting penetrative sex whilst your uterus contracts and sheds you have a period!

    Ovulation this week, my cycle got screwed up with my hormone fudging last month I'm a ship wreck one minute and a Pixie the next.
    Last edited by pruella; 02-13-2009 at 04:31 AM.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicki B View Post
    It may not always be that clear-cut.
    Of course not. As I have expressed some CD's are Borderline TS and versa. That intersect in my opinion would be quite difficult to deal with, but I'm sure those who are on that intersect thrive in their expression and passions.

    Have you ever, as IS, felt you were dysphoric?
    That's a tricky question. I guess for 12 months from the time I learned about being IS and that I had been lied to all my life, then discovering all the therapy and medical interventions, I felt totally confused and lost, fall into a very very seriously dangerous depression whilst other intense stressful things were taking place and I was mentally and physically exhausted.

    So I made a choice, change me or change the world. Changing the world was not what most people would consider a fair decision. So it was left to change me.

    Just because people don't express themselves fulltime, it doesn't mean they only feel that way part-time; it's always dangerous to generalise, or to label others?
    Depends. Most of the CDs I have great friendships with are very much part time. Friday afternoon to Monday Morning. They aren't in the closet as such, their work colleagues know about their playfulness, some have had encouragement to 'bring her to work' on occasions. But one friend told me very specifically her CD personality is her social life, not her work life and she loves it that way.

    I do not thing a TS however can be 'part time' because transsexualism is so much more than just the clothes. Crossdressing isn't as physiological. It may be psychological, but its hardly a 'crisis' psychology. If anything a CD's crisis is not having the freedom and acceptance to 'switch' as they wish. Something I greatly support and encourage because for every CD that plays the gender boundary socially, a TS can be less focused on 'passing' and ore focused on living. If you get what I mean.

    If you're going to tell a genetic woman who can't have children that she's 'not a woman', please let me know so I can make sure I'm not around at the same time...
    I sure will never say such a thing! I use that as an example for people when asking them to define a Woman, or a Man. And I use physiological and medical 'catastrophes' to make anyone who defines a woman as 'child bearing' or a man as 'with penis' to reconsider.

    So are you a chimera/mosaic? How did you come to find out?
    Yes I am, it seems. I found out when I got rushed to hospital one day an orange/green colour with no feeling, no vision and no hearing. They did some basic tests and sent me home saying the tests were contaminated. I took the results regardless. Four weeks later it happened again, but I wasn't in a foreign country this time. SO just had to deal with it.

    Four weeks after that, it happened again and this time I went to a private doctor. He did the same tests, came back with the same results: Estrogen and Menses in the urine. I said too coincidental, he said lets so some more tests. So took some needles - which I HATE and an still traumatized by - and took 7 samples. Four came back XX 2 came back XY and one came back contaminated.

    Then he conducted some limited (because of my circumstances) physical and internal inspections and discovered post operative scaring.

    Or are you XXY or XXXY?
    Fortunately not. If what I am is in fact fortunate?

    So far I've only found 6 other people in the world who are similar to me. I'm sure there are hundreds more, but finding them is challenging Assuming any know!

    One girl I know only found out 2 years ago when she was in a car accident and they opened her up to stop internal bleeding and discovered ovaries. Eeeeps! I think I'd have gone into a coma!

  9. #84
    Silver Member noeleena's Avatar
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    hi... nice one Tess-Leigh . oh the tartan. not sure on that at all i know we had one may be one day ill see it .... nice to know we have a few scots on board ....
    ...noeleena ...

  10. #85
    girlyboy gulliver's Avatar
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    My thoughts

    I've always felt 'different' from others in that I've never understood the male/female dichotomy - especially the clothing 'rules' !
    Although I always wanted to wear more 'girly' clothes, I didn't start doing that openly until I was about thirty.
    Over the years since then I've grown more confident with my dressing although I've never tried to 'pass' - a shaved head and beard tend to give clues !
    I've suffered from depression for many years.
    I've also taken the COGIATI test a few times - every time being classed as Androgynous.
    Some years ago, after much research I started using Estraderm patches and Spironolactone to grow breasts - which are now a nice 36b.
    The drugs have brought unexpected psychological benefits - I feel more balanced and happy with myself.
    I do NOT want to transition.
    I feel uneasy where people who have a 'femme' name etc are concerned.

    Last November I went to see a Gender Dysphoria specialist who told me I was transsexual (although I prefer to 'categorise' myself as a male lesbian - someone who would probably have been better born female, and is only interested in females).

    That visit seems to have had a profound effect on me - I'm calmer and less worried about what others think. I have a better idea of what I am. I'm also more likely to wear girly clothes day-to-day.

    The annoying thing is that because I don't want to transition, I can't get any support from the NHS and I'm not covered by any of the employment discrimination laws.

    What am I ?
    To me, I am me. A person who is genetically male with larger than usual (for males) breasts. I dress as I want to dress - I enjoy being girly, and I don't particularly care what other people think. If they judge me on my appearance, they're usually wrong and probably not worth knowing anyway

    Does my girly dress sense (on which girl friends have complemented me) make me unworthy of the society we live in ? - no !
    Does society's reaction to me alienate me and cause me to relish it's impending downfall ? - in general, yes !

    Luckily I have many friends, all of which treat me the same whether I'm wearing jeans and t-shirt or skirt and knee boots !

    If I have any advice for anyone, it's just be yourself. I know from my own experiences that sometimes that's a lot easier to say than do but after spending many years on this path of self-exploration and knowledge, I can honestly say that it's worth it - even though I might not agree when I'm feeling down (a state I'm experiencing less and less !).
    Where others are concerned, encourage people to ask questions if you can - not only will that help them understand, it also helps you.

    Sorry if this appears a bit disjointed in places but for me it's such a big subject that it's sometimes difficult to mention all I want to and still be concise. One day I will start writing that book !
    big boy did it and ran away!

    anarchy is better than no government at all.

    i don't wear girls clothes - they're mine!

    love & light,
    G

  11. #86
    Big Sister Nicki B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pruella View Post
    That's a tricky question. I guess for 12 months from the time I learned about being IS and that I had been lied to all my life, then discovering all the therapy and medical interventions, I felt totally confused and lost, fall into a very very seriously dangerous depression whilst other intense stressful things were taking place and I was mentally and physically exhausted.
    Then it sounds like you do suffer dysphoria - discomfort with seeing yourself as male, or with having a male anatomy, or with being treated as male, socially - or a mixture of these?

    IME the difference between 'CD' and 'TS' is not frequency, but the intensity of these feelings - there is a wide spectrum, it's not a clear-cut division between the two - which is why I prefer TG or trans as a description of us all?

    One girl I know only found out 2 years ago when she was in a car accident and they opened her up to stop internal bleeding and discovered ovaries. Eeeeps! I think I'd have gone into a coma!
    IME, it's not uncommon for this to be found during SRS - genetic testing is still v.rare. However I have two good friends who definitely are Klinefelter's (i.e. XXY). Neither would identify as TS, although both have lived some of their lives as men, some as women - one has fathered children?
    Nicki

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  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicki B View Post
    Then it sounds like you do suffer dysphoria - discomfort with seeing yourself as male, or with having a male anatomy, or with being treated as male, socially - or a mixture of these?
    It's kinda hard for me to say to be honest, I've had a lot of trauma and 'therapy' so it's been a bit of an eye opening ride the last couple of years.

    I am trying to convince myself as a base line that my body is what I have and I should accept it. Just as any disabled or birth 'deformed' person does.

    My issue is that having had surgical procedures as a child, my body has already been modified to suit a gender perspective and I think this is the issue I'm struggling with. I really do not have MY BODY, I have what someone created for their own personal needs. (Which might be more sinister now than I expected.)

    I don't mind sex as I am, I enjoy sex, to a degree. I do not enjoy "90 second sex" I really like a total sensual experience - maybe that's the issue - avoiding the genitals till the last minute when my whole body has entered into a sensualised state? Interesting thought.

    I have for the last yea felt very strongly "wrong" in the genitals, so maybe the physical dysphoria is growing rapidly. It's something I have to watch very close because I can become quite extreme if there isn't balance.

    IME the difference between 'CD' and 'TS' is not frequency, but the intensity of these feelings - there is a wide spectrum, it's not a clear-cut division between the two - which is why I prefer TG or trans as a description of us all?
    Call it intensity if you wish, but is it not really a CDs desire to express temporarily (in most cases) a feminine persona, or merely just to 'dress' for relaxation purposes?

    A TS doesn't 'dress' or try and express a feminine persona for a short time or just for social outings, a TS lives permanently in the state of mind -v- body confusion, a hostile debate that something is not right in the whole physiological construct of themselves which creates conflict and identity crisis.

    I know that for the week that we changed countries, I 'DRABed' for the flight and first few days. I was anxious about 'coming out' again in a new place. Immigration laughed at my visa photo cause it's totally feminine, whereas my passport photo is older and very not feminine. She said "You don't look like your visa photo, do you need to change?" with a smile and advised that I really should not have been afraid to enter as who I am, only a few jerk Immigration people will do the wrong thing and they get sorted out very quickly.

    So there's some advice for traveling to some parts of the world.

    But that DRAB week was intense. VERY VERY intense for me. I was moody, unhappy and felt I was projecting a lie and a fraud. There is more to my 'new life' story and having to in some ways 'come out' again because of my wife and her 'rules' but after the reasons for those rules expired, things were much better, for me and my mental state.

    I may simply be reacting very strongly to having been forced to create a life time appearance that was not congruent with my relaxed mind.

    I also had an issue of 'acting' in the stereotypical male expressions, both in the work place, what I did, how I talked etc. It has in some respects, upon reflection, made me a very good Actress. Although when I played a Transitioning TS role in a film last year, I was uncomfortable at the time of shooting the male parts and even watching it gives me the creeps.

    However, I realise to be a successful Actress I have to play characters and sometimes they will conflict with my beliefs, my values and my gender. So I am training myself to enjoy the fact I can do these fascinating roles!

    Hey if Cate Blancette can play Bob Dylan why should I complain!

    I ma trying to work out now, if I can be comfortable with my body as it is for the most part and my social appearance as it is. I suspect as each day passes this is not the case, but at least I can think about this carefully.

    IME, it's not uncommon for this to be found during SRS - genetic testing is still v.rare. However I have two good friends who definitely are Klinefelter's (i.e. XXY). Neither would identify as TS, although both have lived some of their lives as men, some as women - one has fathered children?
    It's pretty rare for Klinefelter's people to have the ability to have children, be they male or female. But it's not unheard of. Just like it's pretty rare for XX/XY people to be totally fertile in both sexes. Some are not at all, some are half and half and one other I know like me is totally both ways. We call it the 'Twin' Syndrome

    XXY people tend to be pretty comfortable in their 'birth' gender and rarely have the issues of Transsexualism. They are just 'men' or 'women' and quite comfortable as that. No doubt there are some some who are TS.

    Intersexed doesn't necessarily mean a person is Transsexual or a Crossdresser. It just means they have chromosome variants to the gender norm of XX or XY.
    Last edited by pruella; 02-14-2009 at 04:42 AM.

  13. #88
    Big Sister Nicki B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pruella View Post
    I am trying to convince myself as a base line that my body is what I have and I should accept it. Just as any disabled or birth 'deformed' person does.
    None of us are deformed - we are variations, which is exactly how nature always works? It's only certain societies which can't cope with that..

    Call it intensity if you wish, but is it not really a CDs desire to express temporarily (in most cases) a feminine persona, or merely just to 'dress' for relaxation purposes?

    A TS doesn't 'dress' or try and express a feminine persona for a short time or just for social outings, a TS lives permanently in the state of mind -v- body confusion, a hostile debate that something is not right in the whole physiological construct of themselves which creates conflict and identity crisis.
    If there is a spectrum, then, plainly, some people will fit those descriptions - but many others will experience a mixture of the feelings/behaviours you describe.

    Behaviour exhibited 'temporarily' does not mean the underlying condition isn't full time?

    I know that for the week that we changed countries,
    Was that your trip to the UK?


    XXY people tend to be pretty comfortable in their 'birth' gender and rarely have the issues of Transsexualism. They are just 'men' or 'women' and quite comfortable as that. No doubt there are some some who are TS.

    Intersexed doesn't necessarily mean a person is Transsexual or a Crossdresser. It just means they have chromosome variants to the gender norm of XX or XY.
    Many IS people would not wish to be seen as part of the trans community, certainly - however there are some who identify as trans who discover they are IS (it is a conditon which isn't normally looked for, unless there are obvious anatomic markers)?

    Of the two XXY people I spoke of, one has yo-yo'ed between living as a man and as a woman, but is now trying to live as male with the benefit of testosterone injections.. The other lived the first half of her life as a man, married, had kids, served 22 yrs as a soldier - but when her breasts started to grow on their own, started to live and work as a woman, had SRS and has lived with a man for the last four+ years?
    Nicki

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  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by gulliver View Post
    Last November I went to see a Gender Dysphoria specialist who told me I was transsexual (although I prefer to 'categorise' myself as a male lesbian - someone who would probably have been better born female, and is only interested in females).
    Gulliver, you simply can NOT call yourself MALE LESBIAN. It's a total oxymoron and you will find yourself very seriously marked as a fantasist and shunned.

    The term Lesbian is very very clear it meaning - it means a Female that engages in homosexual sex.

    As you do not have Female Genitals and you do NOT intend to transition to such, you can NOT use the term lesbian.

    It is accepted to be a Transsexual Female Lesbian. Even in Post Operative status, however to Practice being Lesbian without the right genitals is not going to happen.

    If you were better born as female and only interested in females then you are a Transsexual.

    However if you maintain your male body and the concept of male penetrative sex, and you only engage in sex with women using your penis, then you are a Straight Male.

    You can NOT have lesbian sex. It's a physical impossibility based on what you have said. And just because you have B Cup breasts does NOT make you a woman.

    Sexuality and Gender are NOT the same so you can't be, nor can you have the term: a Male Lesbian.

    Sexual Orientation is entirely based on physical gender. Gender is not based on sensual orientation.

    Sorry to be brutal on this point but it is, to me anyway, quite offensive for men who succinctly enjoy male penetrative sex with no intention of transitioning to the female genitals to be going around saying they are lesbian. It's damaging to the Lesbian community who also continue to struggle for legal and social acceptance in many parts of the world.

    I am not sure what you should call yourself, given your unusual dysphoric description. Like me, I think you fall outside the social boxes.
    Feel Free to PM me on any topic! A compliment is flattering, a point of view is educations, a flame just gets doused with water

  15. #90
    Big Sister Nicki B's Avatar
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    Why do people feel the need to tell others what they are, or aren't?

    Quote Originally Posted by pruella View Post
    Gulliver, you simply can NOT call yourself MALE LESBIAN. It's a total oxymoron and you will find yourself very seriously marked as a fantasist and shunned.
    Do a search here and see just how many times the term comes up.. It's in fairly common usage.

    And you really think lesbians don't engage in penetrative sex?
    Nicki

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  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicki B View Post
    None of us are deformed - we are variations, which is exactly how nature always works? It's only certain societies which can't cope with that..
    Well I did put 'deformed' in quotes for the reason that it's a term used to create a prima facie perception.

    Mermaid Syndrome is considered a deformity, yet the kids with the Syndrome are fascinating in themselves.

    Behaviour exhibited 'temporarily' does not mean the underlying condition isn't full time?
    Getting into a very clinical area now. Because once a behavior is exhibited, the body may have received what it needs to not continue exhibiting behavior for a time.

    Again, a TS exhibits a permanent 'full time' need of comfort to represent their minds gender and adapt to that. Whereas a CD usually doesn't. There really isn't any such thing as a Part Time TS - simply because Transsexualism is a congenital 'abnormality' where as Crossdressing is either a desire, or sometimes a psychological issue.

    Abnormality as in the terms of stereotypical social acceptance.

    Psychological Issue does not mean the person has a negative concern. I have said elsewhere that a Crossdresser with psychological need to 'dress' should be encouraged and embraced, for ooooh so many positive reasons.

    Many IS people would not wish to be seen as part of the trans community, certainly - however there are some who identify as trans who discover they are IS (it is a conditon which isn't normally looked for, unless there are obvious anatomic markers)?
    Two pats there:

    1. IS people don't want to be associated with the 'Trans' community because all too often it's seen as negative. Trans in some places is seen as Transvestite and seedy. Fortunately the term Transgender being abbreviated to Trans is HELPING dramatically resolve that, but we all need to educate people as we go through the day.

    2. Yes there appear to be a number of Transsexual people who discover their IS condition by accident, either through life tragic event or at Surgical investigations.

    There are, unfortunately, many people who are going onto the Transsexual program claiming they are intersexed and simply preaching what they have read on the net as a means to convince people as they go through the process. Fortunately they get discovered in due course, but it does waste extremely limited and valuable resources.


    Of the two XXY people I spoke of, one has yo-yo'ed between living as a man and as a woman, but is now trying to live as male with the benefit of testosterone injections..
    That's kinda strange in typical respects. XXY people usually don't have gender variations of that nature. XXY is quite a nasty think to have really.

    The other lived the first half of her life as a man, married, had kids, served 22 yrs as a soldier - but when her breasts started to grow on their own, started to live and work as a woman, had SRS and has lived with a man for the last four+ years?
    Again that's quite unusual for an XXY person too. Given, it is 'said' that 99.9% of XXY people are infertile. Although I come across quite a few who are not. So I won't be hasty.

    XXY is a common 'throw' from TS people who try to use a physical condition to justify their Transsexualism. I know a few XXY people and although they are all different, there are commonalities.

    XXY is 'well' known simply because it's the most common form. It's visual at birth in most cases, at least most cases of 'male' births. Female births can be a little more difficult and often don't show up till puberty or attempts to conceive.

    One I know is capable of self impregnation, well was, until surgically rectified when he was a young teen at his request.

    Personally I am skeptical of anyone claiming to be XXY. It's a club you really don't want to be in because the associated health problems, physically and mentally, in the long term just aren't worth it.

    Unless someone has had a Karyotype test, any claim to Intersexed unless they have visual clues, is dubious.

    I have found one thing though. The rarer kinds of IS condition people who are actively seeking are highly intelligent. Often play a little dumber than they are, but are usually found in very intense and advanced professions.

    I know there are a few on this site Me, I just have an IQ greater than Einstein, not that it helps me in any way at all. But we've had the IQ discussion elsewhere and I've said it means little. Autistic people might not have great IQ passing ability but some are just mind blowing!
    Feel Free to PM me on any topic! A compliment is flattering, a point of view is educations, a flame just gets doused with water

  17. #92
    Aspiring Member Fiona K's Avatar
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    This is what works for me it may, or may not work for others (Though in another place I said I'd never post in another lable thread)..............

    1. There are 3 spectra at work in humans

    a. Physical Gender; that which you were born. In almost all Humans this is either male or female. However in Intersex People there are characteristics of both to varying degrees.

    b. Sexuality; regardless of Physical Gender, people can be attracted to the opposite sex, the same sex or variations in between.

    c. Personal Gender; at one end of the spectrum a person who is 100% comfortable in the gender to which they were born, the other, someone who is transsexual (note the physical gender is irrelevant).

    There is possibility of movement on the second two spectra, the first however is fixed at birth unless there is an intervention.

    For me, I have seen too many friends who have self-described as Crossdressers or Transvestites who have gone on to transition to believe that one's position on the spectrum is fixed. Some have decided that the full surgical transition is a step too far and simply live in the other gender anyway.

    Likewise, some people who have been 100% hetero have found the right person and have been attracted to someone of their own physical gender.

    Like Nicki, I think we may be striking a good balance in the UK.
    The term Transgender is a blanket one and covers all on the Trans-spectrum, from occasional crossdressers/ transvestites, to 100% full time non-op and post -op Transsexuals. It also covers FTM and MTF equally.

    This is where lables are pernicious. Lables are designed by their nature to pin one to a description that is acceptable to others, rarely the person's own perception.

    We can't prescribe how another human feels, walking a mile in their shoes isn't enough, we can't get behind the eyes of anther- not with any true accuracy.

    So describe yourself as yourself, use the terms that seem to make sense to you and to your audience and try not to insult others along the way. Google has a simple phrase that covers a lot of ground- "do no evil". Maybe we can bear it in mind as the accusations and judgements fly here.
    Girls who are boys, Who like boys to be girls, Who do boys like they're girls, Who do girls like they're boys, Always should be someone you really love

  18. #93
    GypsyKaren
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    Just because the term "male lesbian" comes up a lot doesn't make it so...

    Karen Starlene

  19. #94
    Aspiring Member Fiona K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GypsyKaren View Post
    Just because the term "male lesbian" comes up a lot doesn't make it so...

    Karen Starlene
    Agreed, but as a metaphor to explain to certain audiences what trans is about the statement can be of use. Eddie Izzard has used it in chat shows.

    When I was challenged by a lesbian about why I didn't fancy men I had to point out to her that she didn't, so why should I?
    Girls who are boys, Who like boys to be girls, Who do boys like they're girls, Who do girls like they're boys, Always should be someone you really love

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    I'm with Karen.

    Just because Blokes call themselves 'Intersexed' doesn't make them chromosome varient. Many use the term to mean "I change my orientation when I dress in womens clothes."

    People often wrongly use a term in hope that it will become common. The more people who use it the more accepted it becomes in it's grey definition, or even RE -DEFINITION.

    The term Transvestite is a perfect example of this. And WOW does it create flames and abuse when one uses the old definition.

    At no time in history has a Transsexual been recorded as being a Transvestite!

    Nikki said:
    The term Transgender is a blanket one and covers all on the Trans-spectrum, from occasional crossdressers/ transvestites, to 100% full time non-op and post -op Transsexuals. It also covers FTM and MTF equally.
    You left out Intersexed and Andgrogynes

    I do feel, and try and encourage, most Transsexuals who have 'completed' their transition to consider themselves as the relevant common gender definition, afterall this is the goal of that transition process.

    I do find many take great pride in being Transsexual. I kinda do in a way, but then I also have Woman, and Intersexed to fall back on

    See again, the Men fade into the populous whilst many of the women do stand out a little. I guess it's just really good that society today seems to be more and more amblivilent to 'differances' and more focused on living happily.
    Feel Free to PM me on any topic! A compliment is flattering, a point of view is educations, a flame just gets doused with water

  21. #96
    girlyboy gulliver's Avatar
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    Semantics

    Quote Originally Posted by pruella View Post
    Gulliver, you simply can NOT call yourself MALE LESBIAN. It's a total oxymoron and you will find yourself very seriously marked as a fantasist and shunned.
    No change there, then !

    Quote Originally Posted by pruella View Post
    As you do not have Female Genitals and you do NOT intend to transition to such, you can NOT use the term lesbian.
    I wasn't aware that transitioning could give someone female genitals, but that's a moot point.

    Quote Originally Posted by pruella View Post
    If you were better born as female and only interested in females then you are a Transsexual.

    However if you maintain your male body and the concept of male penetrative sex, and you only engage in sex with women using your penis, then you are a Straight Male.
    Aren't the previous two sentences contradictory?

    Quote Originally Posted by pruella View Post
    And just because you have B Cup breasts does NOT make you a woman.
    I didn't - and wouldn't - say that it does.

    Quote Originally Posted by pruella View Post
    Sexual Orientation is entirely based on physical gender.
    That doesn't feel appropriate either - but I can't put my finger on why.

    Quote Originally Posted by pruella View Post
    I am not sure what you should call yourself, given your unusual dysphoric description. Like me, I think you fall outside the social boxes.
    I try not to call myself anything (except my name !) but society's classifications sometimes help in self-discovery. I am me and I am fully aware that I don't fit any of the boxes completely.
    big boy did it and ran away!

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    Gulliver, I've started a thread on the terms "Male Lesbian" hope over and express yourself! I want to get an understanding on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiona K View Post
    Agreed, but as a metaphor to explain to certain audiences what trans is about the statement can be of use. Eddie Izzard has used it in chat shows.
    Yes but when a Comedian says "I killed George Bush" that doesn't mean they assassinated President George Bush.

    I'm also sure if you take the comedians context of expressing MALE LESBIAN you might find it's in line with "GAY MALE" in the oxymoron sense.

    Being a Stand Up Comedian I often coin such terms and phrases to get a laugh. It's part of Gag Building.

    It sure doesn't create a truth or a reality.


    When I was challenged by a lesbian about why I didn't fancy men I had to point out to her that she didn't, so why should I?
    It's a bit more complicated when you are TS Even the M2Fs have the Orientation crisis because of Genitals!

    In fact it's worse for the M2Fs cause they can't typically get themselves a nice 7 incher with a 5.5 inch girth.

    But then Love isn't dependent on genitals, and most genuine and true Transsexuals learn and accept this, as do a small number of 'conventional' people in relationships.
    Feel Free to PM me on any topic! A compliment is flattering, a point of view is educations, a flame just gets doused with water

  23. #98
    Big Sister Nicki B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pruella View Post
    Just because Blokes call themselves 'Intersexed' doesn't make them chromosome varient. Many use the term to mean "I change my orientation when I dress in womens clothes."
    I personally know of only two people who refer to themselves as intersex - they both describe themselves as having Klinefelter's syndrome (I used XXY for clarity). I have no doubts that's what they are, neither would have chosen to live the lives they have..

    I know of a further six girls who had anatomical abnormalities discovered during SRS (mostly ovaries). I know of no one, 'bloke' or otherwise, who might be claiming to be IS spuriously - however I have often wondered how much overlap there is between IS (who show physical signs of mixed gender) and TG (who show mental signs of the same thing)?

    The term Transvestite is a perfect example of this. And WOW does it create flames and abuse when one uses the old definition.

    At no time in history has a Transsexual been recorded as being a Transvestite!
    It's not an old definition - it's a relatively new one. 'Transvestism' was originally coined to describe what we now call TG and yes, it was used for those who are TS..

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    Hirschfeld himself was not particularly happy with the term: He believed that clothing was only an outward symbol chosen on the basis of various internal psychological situations. In fact, Hirschfeld helped people to achieve the very first name changes (legal given names were and are required to be gender-specific in Germany) and performed the first reported sexual reassignment surgery. Hirschfeld's transvestites therefore were, in today's terms, not only transvestites, but people from all over the transgender spectrum.
    Nikki said:
    No - I didn't.

    Fi did.


    It seems to me that, for those of us who are trans, terms like 'straight', or 'gay', start to make little sense - we've already rewritten the rules.
    Last edited by Nicki B; 02-16-2009 at 06:56 PM. Reason: Clarity.
    Nicki

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicki B View Post
    I have no doubts that's what they are, neither would have chosen to live the lives they have..
    I'm guessing there are health related issues?

    I know of a further six girls who had anatomical abnormalities discovered during SRS (mostly ovaries).
    Yes, I've heard of the occasional like discovery. Usually Intersexed conditions are discovered at birth, at puberty, whilst trying to conceive or at some traumatic life threatening accident. I guess it can also be discovered at SRS, but surely this could be picked up before?


    I know of no one, 'bloke' or otherwise, who might be claiming to be IS spuriously
    Hehehe well you aren't hanging around the wrong places then! I realise now I wasted a year of my life having around with blokes No wonder I kept outgrowing them.

    however I have often wondered how much overlap there is between IS (who show physical signs of mixed gender) and TG (who show mental signs of the same thing)?
    TG is a very broad term - Crossdressers? Transvestites? Adnrogeynes? Intersexed? Transsexuals?

    Do you mean Transsexuals?

    TS don't so much show 'mental' signs, but have a brain chemistry that is opposite the physical gender. IS people can be TS, or not. I suspect the number of IS people who are TS is about the same as the number of TS people compared to the perceived normal person.


    It's not an old definition - it's a relatively new one. 'Transvestism' was originally coined to describe what we now call TG and yes, it was used for those who are TS..
    I don't want to go down this path again. There is way too much history recorded on the origins of Transvetistism and Transsexualism and the creation of the Umbrella Term for all gender variants known as Transgender.

    Even the quote you provided indicates that the term which was adopted by Herschfeld was not a fair term because it was adopted from the already common term of Transvestite from centuries use before that related to sexual fetish.

    However he needed a term that would be readily recognized at the time, and would later become Transsexual.

    Well that's how I read the history. Prior to that, Transsexuals were considered only to be Hermaphrodites. Which again is not entirely correct, historically or present day.

    Language is always evolving, I won't deny that. The problem is when people give so much credence to Truthiness that they forget the truth itself. (Truthiness is a new word created about 5 years ago.)

    It seems to me that, for those of us who are trans, terms like 'straight', or 'gay', start to make little sense - we've already rewritten the rules.
    Yes and no. It makes no sense whilst your brain is, for example, a Woman, and you have a penis, and you act and desire sex like a woman. It's a problem.

    What about me? For all intents, a Hermaphrodite? Am I gay? Am I lesbian? Am I straight? Maybe I'm Double Straight? Am I Bi?

    I'm not attracted to men, I don't love men, I can't fall in love with men.

    I am attracted to women, I love women, and I fall in love with and am in love with a woman.
    Feel Free to PM me on any topic! A compliment is flattering, a point of view is educations, a flame just gets doused with water

  25. #100
    morgan morgan pure's Avatar
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    I have more to read, but I love the term "male lesbian." I've met dozens in trannie bars in NY. I know guys whose wives don't mind too much. In fact I've been picked up by girls when I was in a dress a couple of times, and had fun.

    What is this, Pruella's couch?

    Gulliver I love you. There are a lot of us feminizing but not transitioning. I'm a girl in identification, but not in enculturation. I throw like a boy, but I do swing my hips as I walk.

    Fiona, you are onto something. But people lable. That's what we do. I know some guys who live in an almost exclusively gay world in the city and are known and appreciated as "femme-boys." We used to call it gender-bending. Google jackie 60. Limelight in its early days was based in undefinable genders.

    Some guy just wrote a book about the fetish community that was reviewed in the Times. I said to myself proudly as I read, "I love being deviant." And I am, and I wouldn't change that I am for anything in the world. Not even for Jennifer Anniston.

    M

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