CDers better than GGs

[Kate Simmons]

Geez Reine, I've never considered myself a "femme fatale" no matter how much work I put into my look. Like many I used to think that being all gussied up was the ultimate in femininity. The problem with this line of thinking is that you tend to get all dressed up with no place to go, so to speak and to make a statement of looking "better" than GG's is stretching it to put it mildly.

This is not a competition. If that is what a person wants, there are contests and pageants for that and that is where the real scrutiny comes in. I'm wondering if those who consider themselves "ultra feminine" could handle not winning such an event.

For myself it has to do with the confidence of being who we are and not necessarily what we look like and that is what really makes us a "winner" or "loser" as a person and the beauty of spirit will shine through if it is in abundance.

I must admit it boggles me sometimes as to why some make such statements. As with most things in life, it's not so much whether we "win" or "lose" but how we play the "game".

[VeronicaMoonlit]

who i remember used to go out wearing hats and gloves and heels.

For the most part, they did that because it was what was expected of them. It wasn't 100% choice on their parts. It was societal pressure to conform. So when society changed and they got the choice of whether to wear hats and gloves and heels all the time, most women opted out.

Kudos to them I say, I don't blame them at all. It was probably time consuming and expensive and probably not comfortable in some ways. And some of them may have been FTM's or what we would now call butches or soft butches. They probably weren't all that happy. They could either dress like everyone else and be unhappy and not feel like themselves or dress like they wanted to and be called names...or worse.

Veronica
Rondelle (Ron) Rogers Jr.

[Valeria]

The truth is that with the exception of a few TS's who have transistioned early in life, the vast majority of t-girls do not pass.

That's not really accurate, IMO. There are plenty of TS women who transitioned in their late 20s, 30s, even 40s who are totally passable. Some of us live perfectly normal lives, with everyone we interact with (including close friends, roommates, coworkers, even in-laws) assuming we are cis females. Of course, many of us aren't so fortunate, and some trans females never really reach that point (and yes, you are right that starting younger is helpful).

FWIW, a lot of TS women don't particularly care to be called t-girls (or trannies).

Looking good and being 100% passable are two different things.

Absolutely true. I've seen drag queens and transgendered women who were absolutely stunning looking -- gorgeous enough to be a model. Far more beautiful than I. But even at their best, they aren't anywhere near as passable as I am, due to factors like jawline, forehead, shoulders, height, unnatural walk, unpassable voice, facial hair, etc. Also, while they can look fabulous, it's generally an illusion, relying on makeup, wigs, breast forms, corsets, etc.

By the way, the "girls" in Malaysia, Thailand, and Indonesia (very few in Indonesia) dress like females because it is economically rewarding to be a prostitute, not because they have a desire to dress like a woman.They lack the cultural stigma against CD'ing that us westerners have. Hence it is easier to be a man dressed in female clothing, and be more confident when they are out in the world.

Umm, from what I know some of the kathoey identify as women, and they *are* female (whether their legal system recognizes it or not). Some of them think of themselves as third-gendered, and some of them appear to be effeminate gay men. Cultural differences make comparisons tricky. But the kathoey should not be referred to dismissively as "girls", with scare quotes around the word to indicate that you don't really think of them as girls, and they certainly aren't all prostitutess.

Anyway, I would agree with those who have posted that people are just judging beauty based on varying subjective criteria (such as how close someone is to some idealized fifties-era concept of femininity).

[Bethany_Anne_Fae]

I'm kinda neutral as I see people as people, not better than anyone else. Whether its male or female in any guise, the comparisons sorta need to go out the window.
I've met several that take their dressin up so seriously that it hampers their ability to actually ENJOY themselves or life. Lots of wasted time there.

Be who you are, don't try to compare, and enjoy what you have. Besides, pretty only lasts so long

*hugs*

Zara

[Jennifer Devine]

I don't really think of myself as being better than anyone whether it is a CD or a GG.
If anything i try and look up to other GGs that i know and try and learn from them as much as i can so that it helps me progress with my crossdressing because at the end of the day, they are the real thing and they know what it is to be a woman.

[Farrah]

I don't look that great as a woman, but there are some gg's that come out as if they don't care how they look.

[DameErrant]

...is a smile. (Old Southern Proverb.)


When talking about beauty, we should remember that while external beauty can be an illusion, internal beauty is not. And both CDs and GGs can have the same type of beauty or lack of same.

With the new advances in Brain Science, it has been discovered that men and women do indeed have different brains, (mostly a matter of the relative size of the same areas,) and that there is a spectrum between the two. These are what they call "bridge brains," and many a TG will turn out to have a more feminine/female brain than some GGs. Amd vice versa.

As I have said on other boards, it's a matter of which you consider more important, more central to your identity, the body or the brain. In our case, I believe, we get some richer combinations than the non "gender enhanced."

That may be part of why we Cross Dress; a combination of the masculine visual orientation with our feminine inner feelings. This is certainly part of why some go on to transition, to bring the outer being into line with the inner self.

And maybe a part of why we want to look beautiful; we men/Tgirls still need the approval of other men in some degree, even when expressing our feminine side. Or maybe especially then in some cases. How many of you remember the thrill you felt the first time a man showed some interest in you as a woman? I do, and while I wasn't interested in responding, I felt validated as a woman when this happened! This being both yin and yang creates some interesting new combinations, and we should not be afraid of them.

But a feminine minded TGirl can express much, (though I agree, not all,) of the inner beauty of the GG. It's not all about makeup, hair, clothes, standing, sitting, walking and general deportment, But dressing the part seems to help us access that feminine part of ourselves more easily. I know it's true in my case; my wife says that I am almost a different personality when en femme, more outgoing, socialble, even flamboyant at times, not my usual introverted self. She has even caught me actively listening to other people talk about their feelings. And sharing mine in return. I wish I could do this more while en drabbe.

But this is just an example of how a Tgirl can express, at least in part, the inner beauty of the GGirl. Of course it's not perfect, but in this fallen world, what is?

[curse within]

Saying that CDers are better than GG's is like saying checks are better than cash.. Some folks just need to choose thier wording a bit better and maybe say things like almost or just as rather than better.

[Roxi Loh]

I guess I am on the side of I think I look better as a woman than I do as a man. I identify more with that person looking back from the mirror when I am dressed as a woman.

[Sheila]

We then have a natal female with lots of vacumous friends (do you mean vacuous?) who sees t-girls as "presenting as something they are not" Like fancy dress I suppose!!
Di x

We then have a natal female with lots of vacumous friends (do you mean vacuous?)

No I didn't, sorry it was a private joke between friends .......... and yes one is a CDR and I am a GG

[ChristineRenee]

Why are we in different arenas? Why so polarised? Check post number six again. I think it answered the original question very well indeed.



Sarah...

I "get it" alright. I was a child of the 1950's who started CDing at the age of 12 in 1963. That was a long time ago. In the fifties, as a man, you weren't "dressed" in public if you didn't wear a hat. If you were a woman...you wore a hat, gloves, heels, and DRESSES in public. The world has changed a lot since the clothing mores of those times.

Once again...there is nothing wrong with wanting to look and feel inwardly AND outwardly as feminine as you possibly can. It's what we are about. I'm just saying this...to come out and say that CDers are more "feminine" or even care more about being more feminine in looks and demeanor than contemporary GG's who have so much more freedom in their dress and deportment in THIS day and age...is somewhat laughable.

I still say that we are illusionists at best...this said from someone who has spent a few years learning some "tricks of the trade" of how to photograph feminine. And if you don't think so...go photograph yourself in a bikini, or skimpy and sexy lingerie, a teddy or a revealing nightie, then compare that to even an average looking GG in the same outfit. THEN come back and tell me with a straight face that you are more sexy and/or feminine looking than many GG's.

[Sarah...]

And if you don't think so...go photograph yourself in a bikini, or skimpy and sexy lingerie, a teddy or a revealing nightie, then compare that to even an average looking GG in the same outfit. THEN come back and tell me with a straight face that you are more sexy and/or feminine looking than many GG's.

I definitely couldn't say that! I'm not nearly "feminine" enough. There's some TGs who could though. Caroline Cossey for example. And that's my point. We can never say never. We can't be that general.

Sarah...

[Wendy Seymone]

[SIZE="3"]"If there is one thing worse than being an ugly duckling in a house of swans, it's having the swans pretend there's no difference." [/SIZE]

[Deidra Cowen]

In my experience a high percentage of the best looking Caucasian trannies/ CD's aren't "normal" looking guys out of femme ..... many look "slightly built" and sometimes even a look a bit geeky as men, but because of their build and lack of strong facial features esp. jaw, brow line and nose..... they can look far better as women.

Quite a few of the best looking trannies that I know fall into this category, they look gorgeous as women and are always getting chatted up by men (sometimes straight men) when they are out, but find it really difficult to raise any interest in women (or men for that matter) when in drab.

A good friend who regularly does photo shoots for t-mags, has spoken to me about this at length and even started threads about it on other forums that I belong to.

Di

I have noticed that too...some of the very hottest trannies are indeed slightly off in guy mode. I think its the femmy facial features that those type girls have.

We have a FT girl here in Atlanta...Well she might NOT might be more beautiful than GGs (giggle) but the girl looks like a super model and is that one out of a thousand that absolutely passes! Back before she went FT i used to see her in boy mode too...very average almost geeky looking guy!!!!

Interesting observation Diane.

[SIZE=3]"If there is one thing worse than being an ugly duckling in a house of swans, it's having the swans pretend there's no difference." [/SIZE]

Who ya calling an ugly ducking???? Hey sweetie was great seeing ya last weekend.

[Diane CHILDS]

The truth is that with the exception of a few TS's who have transitioned early in life, the vast majority of t-girls do not pass.

Perhaps I should have said .... do not pass all of the time .

Of course many pass in every day situations, but I firmly believe (here in the UK) the vast majority of M2F TS's, find the concept of "stealth" very desirable but often unachievable, certainly with those in close contact.

That's not really accurate, IMO. There are plenty of TS women who transitioned in their late 20s, 30s, even 40s who are totally passable. Some of us live perfectly normal lives, with everyone we interact with (including close friends, roommates, coworkers, even in-laws) assuming we are cis females. Of course, many of us aren't so fortunate, and some trans females never really reach that point (and yes, you are right that starting younger is helpful).

FWIW, a lot of TS women don't particularly care to be called t-girls (or trannies).
.

Although I don't attach the tag of TS to myself, I personally know plenty who do and have read much on the subject on internet forums and elsewhere. Some are blessed and are so totally convincing that their past is never questioned ...... unfortunately most are not.



In reply to your second point I didn't call TS's ..... trannies I used the general umbrella term "t-girls", because some here seem to dislike the general term "transgender".

In the UK, "t-girls" is an abbreviation of "trans-girls". What is the difference between trans-girls and the terms "trans-females" or "trans-women" which are the titles/tags you care to use?

Sounds like splitting hairs to me..... but a lot of that goes on in this "community." I'm sometimes guilty of it myself

FWIW, many m2f TS's in the UK who have acquired a gender recognition certificate, do not like being called TS women ..... they are just "women" or "female" and are free to enter into marriage with a man (a marriage as apposed to a civil partnership like same sex couples are entitled to to over here)

Best wishes Di

[victoriamwilliams1]

The sad part is I was watching a tabloid TV show and even a GG made the same comment! I was shocked, stunned and other startled! I cannot compare myself to a GG. I will say I have seen CD's/TG's who look just like some of the GG's I see and they come in all shapes and sizes.

Once upon a time I had the same feeling but as you grow and as you get older those thoughts start to go away. When I am dressed I personally look at GG's in admiration since I want to do my best presentation and I have found out the women will talk to you if you act and look approachable even when they know. They get offended we we act superior to them.

Now I am going to flip the story for you, I was watching a program a few years ago where a F2M said that they are better than GM's! again the person talking was in thier 20's and I was offened by the statement myself.

Most of the statements are based on how both genders are presenting themselves to the public and how each person perceives how we should all look. Some men do not dress to impress with a nice suit and tie anymore and some people get upset; And some feel that women do not wear skirts and dresses, heels and hose. Both are based on the region you live in as well as your income level.

I am off my soap box

[Jocelyn Renee]

I think Suzy Cool is really on to something with her observations. I have long wondered if CDing isn't on some level a bit of a push back against societal changes over the past 40 years or so. First it was women who were encouraged to become more like men and lately it is men that are being encouraged to be more like women. Somewhere along the way the line between men and women became a bit blurry.

Mind you, I'm not advocating a return to "a woman's place is in the home" mentality, but as I observe GGs going about their daily lives at the grocery store/mall etc., I can't help but feel a little sense of loss at the lack of femininity in our world today. Judging by the reactions of an increasing number of straight guys to particularly feminine t-girls I have a feeling I'm not alone.

[DameErrant]

I think Suzy Cool is really on to something with her observations. I have long wondered if CDing isn't on some level a bit of a push back against societal changes over the past 40 years or so. First it was women who were encouraged to become more like men and lately it is men that are being encouraged to be more like women. Somewhere along the way the line between men and women became a bit blurry.

Mind you, I'm not advocating a return to "a woman's place is in the home" mentality, but as I observe GGs going about their daily lives at the grocery store/mall etc., I can't help but feel a little sense of loss at the lack of femininity in our world today. Judging by the reactions of an increasing number of straight guys to particularly feminine t-girls I have a feeling I'm not alone.

Every year members of my support group go to some of the local universities to address some of the students in various disciplines, (sociology, medicine, etc.,) to talk about Transgender Issues. And practically each and every time they discover that they are the only ones wearing dresses! All the students, (and profs,) are wearing identical blue jeans! It got embarassing the first few times they were seated at tables at the front of the room with no modesty screen. But I guess that's just another sign of the times; unless they specifically ask for one, no one thinks to provide one.

One of our members likes to exagerate a bit when pointing this out to the students, that it is often easier to tell M from F at our meetings than it is in their classes! She goes on to say that someone has to preserve the Lore of Femininity for future generations, for when they or their daughters realize it is missing. And its obviously up to us CDs because it seems that we can't trust the women to do it!


This generates a lot of nervous laughter, but no one has yet objected too loudly.

[Valeria]

Of course many pass in every day situations, but I firmly believe (here in the UK) the vast majority of M2F TS's, find the concept of "stealth" very desirable but often unachievable, certainly with those in close contact.

I don't know. I've lived with people for months without them knowing, or worked closely with them for more than a year, or gone with them to a water park wearing a string bikini, or whatever. I know others with similar experiences. ::shrug::

Admittedly, most of my close TS friends transitioned before 30, or had FFS, or both. I've never said someone can transition at 60 and expect to be totally passable. Even at an earlier age, there are no guarantees.

Although I don't attach the tag of TS to myself, I personally know plenty who do, and have read much on the subject on on-line forums and elsewhere. Some are blessed and are so totally convincing that their past is never questioned ...... most are unfortunately are not.

I'm an admin for a forum devoted specifically to younger transitioners. I've known hundreds of people who have gone full-time, had surgery, etc., so I know a little about the subject too.

My sole point is that there are a *lot* more women whose past is never questioned than people suspect. Often, the biggest issue is whether other stuff (like background checks or meeting someone who went to the same high school as you) betrays your past.

In reply to your second point I didn't call TS's ..... trannies

I know, that addition wasn't really directed at you. Sorry for the confusion.

I used the general umbrella term "t-girls", because some here seem to dislike the general term "transgender" . Here in the UK, "t-girls" is an abbreviation of trans-girls. What is the difference between trans-girls and the terms "trans-females" or "trans-women" which are the titles/tags you care to use?

Partly just the fact that I'm over 40 now? I wouldn't refer to an adult female as a trans girl for the same reasons I wouldn't refer to an adult male as a "boy". The other thing is that hyphenating the word turns it into a noun, whereas I'm using trans purely as an adjective. I don't use the nouns "transwoman" or "trans-woman" either. I'm sure it seems like nitpicking, and perhaps it's more of a feminist objection than anything, but the net result is that I'd classify "t-girls" as more othering and more of a diminuative.

And yes, some people object to transsexual and others object to transgender. I haven't seen many objections to the word "trans" offensive, however.

Many TS's in the UK who have acquired a gender recognition certificate, don't like being called TS women ..... they are just "women" or "female", and are free to enter into marriage with a man

I wouldn't normally use "TS" in that respect either, but since this forum is mostly not transitioners, I wasn't sure that "trans female" would be clear as to

In real life, I don't believe I've ever referred to myself (or been called) a TS woman or a trans woman or a trans female -- I would only use such a label in a conversation of this ilk (i.e. a thread about women and trans people of various flavors, where clarity as to a detail of that sort is necessary for my comments to make sense). All my friends and coworkers believe that I'm just another female, and I've no interest in telling them otherwise.

But in an abstract (and anonymous) conversation such as this, I don't personally find the term "trans female" to be offensive any more than I think "cis female" or "lesbian female" or "blonde female" is offensive. It's just an adjective, and I consider the adjectives "trans" and "cis" to be pretty clinical at this point. Using a word like "transwoman", however, arguably classifies us as something other than a woman. But I'm sure neither of us wishes to debate semantics any longer.

Anyway, even though I live in the USA, I'm just female too. We don't have "gender recognition certificates" where I live -- instead, they simply replaced my birth certificate with a new one, which has my correct legal name and states that my sex is female. I could marry a man if I wanted to, but seeing as how I'm lesbian and have a life partner, it doesn't seem likely that I ever will.

[emmicd]

Reine,

I am a lifelong crossdresser in my mid 40s who started quite innocently as a 5 year old drawn to girls clothes. I always enjoyed the pretty clothes girls wore and the soft textures and the colors. I always admired and still do GGs when they wear their dresses and pretty outfits. I always felt jealous that they got to wear such pretty clothes and we as boys dressed so plain. I also admired women for their beauty and strength. I truly believe woman is God's greatest creation. A woman is just so pretty in every way and very compassionate and nuturing. They truly are quite a sight and so needed. I love women and in some small way through crossdressing try to get a glimpse into the female way though not realistically. I do love dressing in girls/womens clothes much more than guys clothes and I truly feel happier when I am able to wear a pretty dress even if it is in private. I wish I could have that girl feeling for even a little time so I can internalize it and hold on to it for I feel I would be a cute girl. I also believe girls/women are smart and not always given the credit they deserve. I even tap into my inner girl and sometimes find myself watching girls movies like sisterhood of the travelling pants to tap into the mind of a young girl becoming a young woman. I feel as a crossdresser we are teenage girls embarking on becoming young women. I am in awe of women and admire them very much. I believe dressing for girls is a fun thing and they get caught up in it and it helps them with their self esteem. I also believe when a girl gets older dressing may become second nature and they don't always feel the need to get all dressed up. I know many girls that hardly wear dresses. I as a crossdresser would never tire of wearing dresses because I hardly have the opportunity to wear them. If I could I would wear a pretty dress every day. It makes me feel so pretty and feminine even if I am still a guy. So I know GGs are so much more prettier and natural. I am a crossdresser who probabaly is transgendered to some degree since I do love to wear pretty clothes and do like to say I am a GIRL! when I am dressed. I may be a girl internally but know reality brings me back to being a guy. I need my crossdressing and am very careful with it because I am married to a beautiful woman I love and the proud father of a son I love and admire.

GGs are my inspiration and I am very happy to be a crossdresser though would not wish it on anyone because it really takes control of your every thought and it is not easy to come to terms with. It has taken a long time for me to accept my crossdressing. Now it is fun and all the choices! I love to shop for pretty dresses and shoes! Oh yes I am indeed a feminine crossdresser who loves being a girl!

Thank you for asking a great question!

emmi
xoxo

[Diane CHILDS]

Partly just the fact that I'm over 40 now? I wouldn't refer to an adult female as a trans girl for the same reasons I wouldn't refer to an adult male as a "boy".


Anyway, even though I live in the USA, I'm just female too. We don't have "gender recognition certificates" where I live -- instead, they simply replaced my birth certificate with a new one,

Okay I'll remember that.

I have a natal female partner in her 40's as well, (I use natal female instead of GG because I know some TS's object to the term "genetic" and lots object to RG or real girl) ..... Anyway my partner is having "a night out with the girls, tonight" (her words). I'll correct her when she gets in and tell her she had a night out with the women.

The reason I raised gender recognition certificates is ..... as I said earlier there is no requirement to have any genital or sex reassignment surgery in order to obtain one. I can understand the reasoning behind this but I know from experience that a minority of TS's can not. A militant few believe that it's wrong for a person with male anatomy and attachments to be granted female status and all that goes with it.

Anyway going into that any further would take us way off topic ..... I'm glad you tell me that things are just the same in the 52 States.

Peace love and the correct titles to all !

Di x

[battybattybats]

If we consider that everyone is a different mixture of masculine and feminine then no-one should be surprised that some CDs would be more feminine than even 90% of GG's. It just stands to reason.

And if we consider that peoples anatomy is a mixture of male and female traits differentiating at several stages in the womb and during childhood and during adolescence where masculinising and feminising hormones fluctuate and vary at each and every stage based on a wide variety of factors then it would be simply absurd for some GG's not to be more masculine in appearance than the average man and some GMs more feminine than the average woman.

Thats just how biological diversity works.

And sure some folk who transition before too much time under the influence of sex-hormones makes them too male or female in secondary sex characteristics etc will 'pass' more easilly. And some GG's have trouble 'passing' as women as the cases where some were thrown out of womens toilets have shown!

There never has been a clear distinction between male and female. Some studies suggest as many as 1 in 60 people are anatomically genetically or biologically a mix of male and female, many without ever knowing it!

What we have is mixtures and combinations of deviations from a set level of androgyny with some folk more extended into male or female anatomy and some people being more extended into masculinity or femininity.

No-one is entirely one or the other.

As for better than... well lets consider these:

* a FtM has to fight harder for their manhood/masculinity. A MtF for their womanhood/femininity. Someone who fits comfortably into their sex/gender never has to work for it and faces less stigma, oppression etc. Doesn't that mean that the TG person earned what the Gg/gm person takes for granted? That should make the TG person more deserving of their sex/gender and make their sex/gender more valuable.

* A TG person may be far more male or female internally than a GG or GM is. The GG/GM may be 60/40 in their masculinity/feminity mix while the TG person might be 95/5. Doesn't that make them more of a man or woman than the GG/GM?

* Many people find a mixture of male and female anatomy especially attractive. Many people find expression of a mixture of masculinty/femininity especially attractive. To those people a TG person will be much better than a GG/GM!

* judging others or yourselves as more or less valuable because of comparisons to average male or female or extremes of male or female is sexist and conformist both of which are terrible wrongs. Instead people should strive to be true to how they feel inside. No more feminine or masculine than they want/need to be, no less than they want/need to be and absolutely rejecting others expectations of how masculine or feminine they are supposed to be. So no GG is diminished one iota by a TG person being more or better a woman than they and same for GMs. And a TG person who does not entirely conform to averages of male or female appearance and/or never passes is not one iota less valuable than one who passes effortlessly.

Everyone grows up with sexist conformist indoctrination. Everyone must learn to see past it to the truth.

TG women are not 'near-women' or 'almost-women' or 'mimicking-women' they can very much be just women, some more woman than many GGs even if their outer appearance does not pass as such, yes even crossdressers.

The same goes for TG men and GMs. I can most certainly say that many of the FtM guys I've met here and elsewhere are more male than I ever was or could be and more men than many of my GM friends are.

Every single human is a mixture of male and female. In their chromasomes, hormones, anatomy, neurology, personality etc. There are not set distinct seperate groups, just common averages.

CDs and other TGs (and intersex) are people whose mixture makes this more clear, more obvious. And as such we embody a great truth that much of the rest of society is oblivious too or willfully trying to supress. We are constantly told that we are less-than, wrong, broken, ill, deviant etc because of our sex/gender mixture when in fact we are highly important and valuable for that very reason.

TG people (and Intersex) are at least as good as GGs and GMs and untill society throws out its false myths of sex and gender and adapts to the scientific facts of sex and gender diversity accross all people then we ARE more important in our sex and gender than those who fit easily into the current sexist oppressive conformist bigoted and evil binary social sex/gender system

[curse within]

Ok not saying that men are not better at my age but speaking for myself and someone has to say it!!! Being singleI have found that most GG's sorry if the truth hurts are over weight careless in how they act and present them selves.

Speaking from well what I am going through it is what it is.... I know some day I will find my life partner but it is like swimming through a swamp full with reed I am in no way shallow but it has been a joke...

[Sheila]

Ok not saying that men are not better at my age but speaking for myself and someone has to say it!!! Being single[SIZE="3"]I have found that most GG's sorry if the truth hurts are over weight careless in how they act and present them selves.[/SIZE]

Speaking from well what I am going through it is what it is.... I know some day I will find my life partner but [SIZE="3"]it is like swimming through a swamp full with reed I am in no way shallow[/SIZE] but it has been a joke...

It is posts like this that make me wonder why I bother to remain a member of this site .............. now that is a shallow statement .... are we not meant to be supporting the people we are within as opposed to the exterior view ........ or have I got that wrong

[Diane CHILDS]

If we consider that everyone is a different mixture of masculine and feminine then no-one should be surprised that some CDs would be more feminine than even 90% of GG's. It just stands to reason.

And if we consider that peoples anatomy is a mixture of male and female traits differentiating at several stages in the womb and during childhood and during adolescence where masculinising and feminising hormones fluctuate and vary at each and every stage based on a wide variety of factors then it would be simply absurd for some GG's not to be more masculine in appearance than the average man and some GMs more feminine than the average woman.

Thats just how biological diversity works.

And sure some folk who transition before too much time under the influence of sex-hormones makes them too male or female in secondary sex characteristics etc will 'pass' more easilly. And some GG's have trouble 'passing' as women as the cases where some were thrown out of womens toilets have shown!

There never has been a clear distinction between male and female. Some studies suggest as many as 1 in 60 people are anatomically genetically or biologically a mix of male and female, many without ever knowing it!

What we have is mixtures and combinations of deviations from a set level of androgyny with some folk more extended into male or female anatomy and some people being more extended into masculinity or femininity.

No-one is entirely one or the other.

As for better than... well lets consider these:

* a FtM has to fight harder for their manhood/masculinity. A MtF for their womanhood/femininity. Someone who fits comfortably into their sex/gender never has to work for it and faces less stigma, oppression etc. Doesn't that mean that the TG person earned what the Gg/gm person takes for granted? That should make the TG person more deserving of their sex/gender and make their sex/gender more valuable.

* A TG person may be far more male or female internally than a GG or GM is. The GG/GM may be 60/40 in their masculinity/feminity mix while the TG person might be 95/5. Doesn't that make them more of a man or woman than the GG/GM?

* Many people find a mixture of male and female anatomy especially attractive. Many people find expression of a mixture of masculinty/femininity especially attractive. To those people a TG person will be much better than a GG/GM!

* judging others or yourselves as more or less valuable because of comparisons to average male or female or extremes of male or female is sexist and conformist both of which are terrible wrongs. Instead people should strive to be true to how they feel inside. No more feminine or masculine than they want/need to be, no less than they want/need to be and absolutely rejecting others expectations of how masculine or feminine they are supposed to be. So no GG is diminished one iota by a TG person being more or better a woman than they and same for GMs. And a TG person who does not entirely conform to averages of male or female appearance and/or never passes is not one iota less valuable than one who passes effortlessly.

Everyone grows up with sexist conformist indoctrination. Everyone must learn to see past it to the truth.

TG women are not 'near-women' or 'almost-women' or 'mimicking-women' they can very much be just women, some more woman than many GGs even if their outer appearance does not pass as such, yes even crossdressers.

The same goes for TG men and GMs. I can most certainly say that many of the FtM guys I've met here and elsewhere are more male than I ever was or could be and more men than many of my GM friends are.

Every single human is a mixture of male and female. In their chromasomes, hormones, anatomy, neurology, personality etc. There are not set distinct seperate groups, just common averages.

CDs and other TGs (and intersex) are people whose mixture makes this more clear, more obvious. And as such we embody a great truth that much of the rest of society is oblivious too or willfully trying to supress. We are constantly told that we are less-than, wrong, broken, ill, deviant etc because of our sex/gender mixture when in fact we are highly important and valuable for that very reason.

TG people (and Intersex) are at least as good as GGs and GMs and untill society throws out its false myths of sex and gender and adapts to the scientific facts of sex and gender diversity accross all people then we ARE more important in our sex and gender than those who fit easily into the current sexist oppressive conformist bigoted and evil binary social sex/gender system

Very well put! I find this response heartening.

I'm not sure I'd have said that "some CDers are more feminine than even 90% of GG's" but I suppose it depends on the part of the world where you live.

Also .... many people who apparently fit comfortably into their sex/gender have had to work at it from an early age in order to conform and in reality they are living a lie. They are not being true to them selves's often because of fear and social stigma of the binary sex/gender system.

You should change your name on here, my wise Australian sis ..... you are not at all "batty"

Love Di