I can't always shave my chest cause it is so light and grows so slow that it would be redundant...Originally Posted by SamanthaM
nyah nyah nyah nyah...
I want to shave it but I already spent an hour doing other beauty things...
I don't think my wife cares either way if a chest has hair or not, I am assuming, based on the "hunks" she lusts over, that she likes smooth chest.
So if someone shaves their chest and the wife doesn't like it, the hair will grow back yeah?
It takes a true Erin to be a pain in the assatar.
the point is one should ask her first
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I've been lucky. I didn't start shaving twice a week untill I was 35. I had a few hairs on my chest that my wife used to laugh about. After that it became funny, I had been shaving my legs 3 years before she noticed. Then all of a sudden she wanted a hairy guy. Which I never was. But she kind okay with it now.
I am hairier than my boyfriend and I love to shave myself smooth. I would never want him to shave, I like the hairy man (except myself).
Oh contrare, this one is alive and well and there are still plenty of attractive GG's that still luv the look of the jeans, boots etc... .
One day I just saved it and when may SO asked, I told her the truth, that it makes me feel old, she understod and some days now and then I trim it short, and others I just shave it completely!!!... you know why.
The other day we where at a hotel pool and we made a poll of the hairy chests around, they where like 7 to 1 and the most hairy where old looking.... at least for our point of view.
I agree, the 70' are Long gone.
Luv, Lucy
I wish I could shave my now gray haired chest, which I think makes me look older than my salt and pepper head (but that is not the main reason).
I don't because my wife protests that it would be scratchy for her.
The thing is, she has, over our 30+ years together, progressively cut her hair shorter and shorter, as most women do. Over that same time, I have clearly and consistently stated my preference for longer hair on her, which I still think would be more attractive. She responds that it is, after all, her hair.
We have an uneasy peace about the cross dressing, so I have been reluctant to draw the obvious parallels.
Elizabeth
I think i's been said best by Tamara Croft, I quote " But then again, I'm all for.. it's your body, do what you like with it... because no one would sure as hell tell me what I can and cannot do with mine... "
I cant believe how some wives of some of the cd'ers here are manipulative, can and cant do, when its the man's (cd'ers) body. I'm not married so I dont have that problem, but I have never in my adult life allowed anyone to tell me what is right or wrong to do with my body and never will. I think the wives need to realize that whilst they may be married to the cd'er, the body is the individuals own, and it being up to the individual if they want to and are comfortable to. And yes, I shave my chest, arms, legs, (and think nothing of it). How someone may percieve me in regard to that is the least of my worries.
Womans preferences?! blaah! Mans ow body, dearys. It doesnt take a hairy chest for a woman to love a man. I'd want a woman with a bit of substance who could love me for more than that, and missing a hairy chest not make any difference.
Do what you wanna do, be what you wanna be, yeah.
(Because I Love You: The Masters Apprentices, 1971)
Janie
Hmmmmn.....hairy chest
I'm 51 years and naturally hairy in most place on my body. Ever since I started growing hairs in late teens I was never really comfortable with it. And as I have reached every new decade, the hairs have got thicker and more wirey. I really don't like getting older and now, just to annoy me, there are some grey hairs scattering through my chest hair.
So it's decision time for me. If I do nothing the grey hairs will invade and I'll feel 'old'. If I shave it off I get a fresh start and feel young. Perecption is everything!
If I was a traditional male, I'd just live wth it, and get grumpy about it.
If I was a female I'd do the right thing and get rid of it - women will not suffer feeling old for anyone!
The only complicating factor is that my lovely wife prefers a bit of fursal on my chest. But considering she never asks me before making changes to her hair or body (except to ask if I like the results!) I think I can safely leave her out of the actual yes/no decision.
The fur has to go! At least I wil try it for a while and if I get the desired 'young' mood back, then it stays off.
There, decision made, and you saw it first, live on CD.com!!!
Hugs, Jazzmine
I'm happy being male but happier in a skirt!
I'm a strong man on the outside and a strong woman on the inside.
To ask for her opinion yes...to ask for her permission no.
As others have stated, women routinely make big changes to their appearance and do not seek approval from their SOs before doing so. To apply a different standard to men is simply sexist IMO. There is no need to make excuses to do what is already well within your socially accepted rights.
I think some CDs are taking the phrase "who wears the pants in your house" too literally.
I went for an ECG several years ago. The technician was pleased to see I shaved my chest as it allowed the stickies to stay in place. Nothing else was said. I think I blushed though
Margot
Why? who's body is it? One assumes you mean permission... if that is the case, then there is something wrong with the relationship in the first place... one should NEVER need permission from another person to alter their body. However... if it's asking for an opinion, then that's different....
I turned an adult when I was 18, I don't need permission from anyone to tell me what I can and cannot do...
Administrator
Missing my Libra babe Sherlyn, I hope she's rocking up there with the angels
Missing our Rianna, doesn't seem right, gone to early, hope she's partying with Sherlyn
I think the it's wrong to equate a woman cutting her hair shorter with shaving your chest. Sorry, but if the situation was reversed, can you honestly say that if your wife or girlfriend STOPPED shaving, it would go without a word from you? Think about the hairy armpits for just a minute. that's just my take on things. It is your body, you do have the right to do what you want, nobody is saying that.
Sure, so long as the rule applies equally to everyone and she has to ask everytime she cuts her hair or shaves or waxes her legs...
Except that it's actually a really important principle that no-one, not even a spouse has rights over another persons body while they are alive and capable of making their own decisions.
That principle is important because it was the crux of the Wifes right to refuse their husband sex. For a long time men could rape their wives and their wives had no legal recourse.
So the principle is enshrined in the law of many many countries as well as in the International Convention on Human Rights.
Sure such things can be up for negotiation if the person whose body it is wishes to negotiate but the final say on anything, from body-hair to sex to childbirth always belongs to the persons whose body it is.
If you agree to their preferance for you to not do something with/to your body or to do something with/to your body you better be getting something in return for that that has been fairly bargained and that you agree is worth as much to you as what you are giving up or going through.
If on the other hand its a matter of "if you do then I'll (impose some negative consequence)" then that is blackmail and coercion and not at all ok.
Unfortunately fair bargaining and respecting the rights of spouses is not something taught or valued in our current culture despite the fact that it is key to fighting domestic violence and emotional abuse in relationships so many don't realise that they are doing something wrong when they do.
My SO doesn't mind that I shave my chest and stomach. "Take it or leave it" is her attitude to hair in those parts.
However, she is thrilled that I shave my legs and armpits.
But she doesn't like me to shave my arms because she loves holding them against her face when we snuggle.
All things I can most definitely live with.
--Kat
"I never kept up with the fashions. I believed in wearing what I thought looked good on me." --Bettie Page
"This above all--to thine own self be true" --Hamlet, Act I, scene iii
Is Disney a Mickey Mouse operation?
It's all a matter of personal preference and perception. I love my wife's hair just the way it is. If she were to radically change it to something I didn't like then 'yes' it would upset me. Yet she wouldn't consult me first before making that change - she is in charge of her own hair, and rightly so. That is the point about all of this. Your body, you're in charge of it, you have to live in it. Ultimately, your self perception must come first.
Hugs Jazzmine
I'm happy being male but happier in a skirt!
I'm a strong man on the outside and a strong woman on the inside.
Quote "Your body, you're in charge of it, you have to live in it."
Yep, Jazzmine, 110% I couldnt agree more, thats exactly how it should be.
The partner respect the desires of the other re their OWN body.
Janie
Why? Hair is hair. Makes no difference where it grows. You are just buying into the conventional (and sexist) idea that it does matter where the hair grows and applying different standards to men and women.
This argument when it occurs in a CD relationship usually has little to do with personal preference over body hair. More often than not it is a proxy battle between a CD who wishes to feminize his appearance and a SO who is eager to stop this process. Both end up making excuses and dancing around the subject matter.
[QUOTE=Bridged;1469234]I think the it's wrong to equate a woman cutting her hair shorter with shaving your chest./QUOTE]
I have to agree with this thought. When a woman cuts her hair it's for different reasons. Different style, easier to take care of, getting rid of split ends, etc. When we shave (insert body part here: legs, chest, armpits, whatever) it's because it makes us look/feel more feminine. Sure, we can rationalize plenty of other reasons like it makes us look younger, it feels cleaner, body hair is an evolutionary holdover and on and on. But none of those are the real reason.
Well in that case so are CDR's ............ when you do not wear what you like, when you like .............. you as well are buying into the, social sexist stereotyping,........ so remove the plank from your own eyes before attempting to take the splinters out of ours
and just as equally important Batty is that I have the right to know who I am entering into a long time relationship with .......... and if I discover after years in said relationship that it is not what I bought into and am unhappy about it, then I have the right to inform who I like why I am unhappy and why (but I guess that will come under yourStatement) ................ Talk about wanting to have your damn cake and eat it.
If you were all open and upfront about your CDing before entering your relationships, then you would leave us little room or any for bleating on about liking the male apperance we became involved with. some days many of you just make mewith the selfishness that appears here. If you don't like that your partner wants to remain attatched to the male side that she was attracted too then do both of you a favour and part
Last edited by Sheila; 10-24-2008 at 06:14 AM.
I allow myself to set healthy boundaries ..... to say no to what does not align with my values, to say yes to what does.
Boundaries assist me to remain healthy, honest and living a life that is true to me
Argumentatively, there are one thing wrong with equating a woman cutting the hair on her head and a man shaving his chest; men also cut their head hair without discussing it with their partners. I think the argument would be better to say a wife shaves her head bald as most men, do not find that attractive.
Personally, my partner can do with her body as she wishes. I'm not in love with her body, its her spirit, mind and soul I find sexy, appealing and the reason I'm with her.
I DO have an issue with someone having to be manipulative in order to justify a simple action. Be an adult, shave it or don't. If you believe it would cause unnecessary stress in your relationship, discuss it. There's really no need to go through the whole "you look at shaved chests and find them hot!" Especially if, as it was pointed out by the original poster, that nearly all the ads majorly have ONLY shaved men!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
[SIZE="3"]"We're all born naked. Everything we wear is drag," said Boy George
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I dont have alot to say in this thread but only I rather my man hairless if he be a cd-er or not... I just feels its cleaner and nicers for both partys and yes I'm on about under the arms and legs too.
However I agree that the SO should tell their partner all about their cd-ing or TG or whatever else he might be into. It's hurtful to find out years down the line. I found out 9 years later however i love my husband all the same.
Everyone has their own rights to let out such information and if they dont and tell you years down the line then expect to be kicked out the door. Ok I'm not saying tell them within the first few hours or anything silly but within the first year IF you think this relastionship is going somewhere.
Dancing said it perfect for my situation. My S/O feels the way she does about my gorilla fuzz. She loves it and would annhialate me for getting rid of her security blanket!
I had no idea that my analogy of a wife cutting her hair and a husband shaving his chest would provoke such controversy.
Are most marriages really such battlegrounds of rights and wrongs, control and retribution? Do most people really enter their home, that sanctuary from the outside world, armed with chips on their shoulders and ready to debate every clause of the marriage contract? This strikes me as an awful situation of potential mutually assured destruction. And in that war, the emotional weapons at hand are much more fearful than some argument of rights.
Personally, I would find that exhausting and incredibly depressing. I know my spouse wants me to be happy, and I her, and I don't think either of us calculates our advantage. Perhaps I do have the right to shave my chest, but that is really a moot point. My wife and I will discuss and negotiate our way through marriage, sometimes in anger, but hopefully never rending the safety net of mutual love and respect.
Regardless of a possible right to shave my chest, I haven't done it or asked her, in part because I don't want to see the look on her face. She works hard at tolerating my cross dressing, and we both spend some of our "rights" for happiness.
Besides, I long ago gave up most judgments of right and wrong. I attribute much of this debate to the sorry state of political discourse in this country. We can't just oppose the positions of the other side any more. They have to be evil.
Elizabeth
Last edited by Elizabeth Ann; 10-24-2008 at 08:08 AM.
Not quite. You have the right to express your preferances at any time. You have the right to withdraw from the relationship at any time. You have the right to make requests of any sort from your partner at any time and to attempt to make any sort of bargain with your partner at any time. It is when you make the statement 'if you X then I'll Y' (example: If you shave your chest then I'll walk out on you and take the kids) as a threat or punishment then you are blackmailing and manipulating whereas the same situation could perhaps get you what you want by saying 'If you X then I'll Y' as a negotiated reward example: 'If you don't shave your chest then I'll wear that outfit you like to bed more often'. Right and wrong depends entirely whether its a fair bargain or coersion. You have the right to end the relationship at any time for any reason whatsover, even the merest whim with no justification given. But to make it a condition designed to control the others behaviour is a form of abuse.
In a world without oppression of transgender your comment would be fair and valid. In a world with it then only the most idealistic saints or those who are strongly transexual manage that. Male children are indoctrinated, often with violence and psychological and emotional torture that any hint of effeminacy must be hidden and concealed at all costs. If someone beat a child about the head and ran around shouting names at them every time they sang in front of others for their entire upbringing and then later someone was to find they sing softly in the shower where they think no-one can here would a partner have any reasonable expectation that such singing should have been disclosed before marriage? Of course not, because we'd be able to understand that the hiding is a conditioned reflex brought about by torture and intimidation. But because our culture uses that torture every day we are blind to it, it's part of the daily background. So w think that a 'big deal' like CDing should be more important to disclose but it is the very thing that makes it a 'big deal', the social taboo, that makes it literally harder to disclose because the violence and name calling was not from just one abusive person but from an abusive society of adults peers and media.If you were all open and upfront about your CDing before entering your relationships, then you would leave us little room or any for bleating on about liking the male apperance we became involved with. some days many of you just make me
You are expecting people who have undergone the equivalent of the brianwashing psychological torture on prisoners of war or the aversionn therapy torture of Gays ect of the past (which also had the same effect, causing depression, distres, guilt and shame and closetting and teaching to hide the behaviour but never curing the desire nor stopping the behaviour!!!!) to somehow ignore the weight of what they have gone through. That is thoroughly unreasonable to expect no matter how clearly virtuous it is for those who manage it.
I told my ex girlfriend the day things started getting serious. I am one of those few who managed it and even then I did not properly understand it or where it was heading but i told the complete truth as far as i knew at the time. It was one of the hardest things I've ever done and I'm an extremist idealist when it comes to honesty!
You can't just expect people to so easilly get over the indoctrination of society that forces them to hide this. Most, myself included, hide most of it from their own concious minds! It's just unrealistic to expect the honesty you want.
Just as not every man or woman who was abused as a child or raped confess this to their partners even when they suffer the long-term mental illness as a consequence that effects their later relationships.
Heck the vast vast majority of women can't even bring themselves to confess their real consenting sexual history in an anonymous survey with evidence suggesting they only admit to around 1/3rd iirc of their actual number of partners (and correspondingly men are equally dishonest exaggerating by the same degree) let alone to their husbands. 1 in 9 children in Australia iirc is born of the wife cheating.
One of the important things in conciousness studies is 'theory of mind'. This is the point where most small children realise that other people have seperate minds and do not automatically understand what the child is thinking or knows. This fundamental and essential part of social skill development comes about in the form of the childs earliest lies and these occur specifically when the child wishes to avoid anger or judgement. If the child does not learn how to lie to avoid such it is a very important sign of likely autism, aspergers syndrome and other developmental differences, learning disabilities or brain damage.
From that point on significant aspects of social interaction involve learning to conceal thoughts emotions and information, generally as a way to smooth social interactions by avoiding upsetting others feelings.
Parents often complain about children not knowing when to hold their tongues, like 'look mummy, that man's (funny-looking, got no legs, really fat etc etc)' and the extreme social difficulties many Aspergers Syndrome people experience because their brains are not wired for Theory of Mind and reading subtle emotions in peoples faces but are instead wired for high-end engineering maths etc substantially is related to their inability to judge what to conceal omit or lie about. They often become extremely socially withdrawn as the only way they can find to avoid the negative consequences of the reactions of others to their extreme unfiltered honesty.
As we grow the consequences of many forms of lying or of excessive amounts of lying are learned by many but not all of the children who have learned the importance of lying resulting in the keeeping of some lies as good and the rejection of others as bad. For some this is bounded by what they can get away with. For some it is bounded by whether it is a lie that avoids hurt and upset or one that deliberatly causes harm.
What we consider truly virtuous action requires both strong 'Theory of Mind' understanding so that other peoples emotions are well understood coupled with a near-aspergers level of honesty and the kind of subtle skills of diplomacy required to be able to tell someone their breath stinks of vomit and rotten sheep intestines in such a way that their feellings are not hurt and they feel greatful.
We commit a grievous error when we expect such a level of idealism and skill and natural ability from average peiple when such a combination is often rare.
It is good to encourage everyone to aim for an ideal but we must accept that a significant number of people are not wired the same neurologically and we cannot ignore that many people have been conditioned to reflexively hide this.
If many can't even be honest about their feelings with their own concious mind then how can you hold them to a higher standard even than that and one that most people, men and women, fail to live up to!
Let me return to peoples inability to be honest in some anonymous studies. The studies found that the more interaction the interviewer had with the interviewee the less likely they were to give honest answers. Instead men exaggerated and women reduced the number of people they had slept with in the past. Why? Because each understood the social expectations on them, men to have more partners and woemn to have fewer and each sought even in brief interview interactions to avoid being judged by the interviewer!
So a survey that was done via a form or computer with little to know face-to-face or voice-to-voice interaction resulted in more balanced figures where the men and womens numbers start to add up.
The social expectations of transgender people are equally clear and the natural human instinct, especially considering the clear social consequences experienced with every deviation from the 'norm' throughout childhood is to hide and conceal and lie to avoid such judgement.
It requires either extremely strong transgender feelings, great courage bravery and conviction, a lack of social instincts such as Aspergers or a lessening of the social stgma for people to ignore disregard or fight against such social indoctrination.
Aspergers is found to be much more common amongst openly transexual and Intersex people, either being more prevalant amongst them or showing that the numbers of non-aspergers people who are transexual and intersex still in the closet is dissproportionatly greater which is quite logical.
As more have the courage to overcome the social indoctrination the strength of the indoctrination on others is lessoned making it easier for more to do so as long as the trend increases per capita through each generation.
Ideally yes, the CDs should declare to their partners that they are CDs. It's certainly the ethical thing to do. However have you Jess never lied? Even if you have not you would belong to a rare significant minority.
You cannot expect an oppressed minority trained with punishment from an early age to be heroicly honest. These are still human beings as flawed as anyone else. It takes time of feelling safe from judgement or of increasing courage for someone to be willing to risk the love of their life with the truth. And it requires being able to face at least some truths almost always at least partially supressed from and hidden from the concious mind.
Plenty of black people whose skin colour was so pale as to 'pass as white' concealed the truth of their race (including one of Thomas Jeffersons children!). Plenty of Jews in WW2 Germany who could concealed their Jewishness. There are many examples. You are demanding and expecting the same sort of thing, that people openly and knowingly expose themselves to rejection, ostracism, violence, blackmail by disclosing something that they know is often decried and condemned. That is unfair. And by the time they trust a partner enough that they might be willing to disclose their dread secret they then are so attached that they risk losing the person they love because of it. Thats still unfair.
It takes a strong will, idealistic values at an extreme level and a willingness to risk all. That it takes many years to first gain the self understanding or sufficiently strong gender dysphoria to have the self knowledge and then the capacity to face up to being honest with their partner should be of no surprise.
If TG people are forced to hide, taught to hide, made to hide by threats and use of violence and intimidation then blaming them for hiding just because it as a consequence inconveniences or harms you is just kicking the dog when it's down, it's blaming the victim.
The world tells people they must not be TG and they can't do that so the next best thing is to hide it but when they finally have enough courage to share it with someone they love they then get condemned for not having been honest and suffering all the slings and arrows from the outset?
If you object to this dillemma, if you insist on subjecting people (or the people subjecting themselves) to the risk of rejection and suffering that comes from such disclosure and honesty then how much are you yourself willing to suffer for others? How much are you willing to risk and to sacrifice in order to alleviate the inequality and deconstruct the culture of oppression that results in this conditioned reflex of hiding? How much are you willing to share of the burden you insist these disadvantaged and oppressed people go through?
Because yes, the ethical obligation for them to do is to be up front from the outset, but you were also equally or even more obligated from the outset even before meeting your partner as part of the non-TG population to be totally accepting of TG without any reservation or discomfort and to oppose TG oppression at every available opportunity even when that oppression is by omission.
Did you live up to your obligation all your life? How much are you doing now to create a public acceptance of TG?
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