On the "freedom" of GGs to wear whatever they want

[Raya]

One thing I keep constantly seeing around here is these passive-aggressive complaints about how women are "free" to wear men's clothes without fearing retribution from society. I think this type of thinking is ignorant and harmful.

One thing everybody seems to forget is that past generations of women had to fight a long and hard battle against society to win this "freedom". They won it only because some women decided they'd had enough of dangerous, impractical clothing and were willing to fight to get it. They overcame all the narrow-minded men and even other women who wanted them to "stay in their place". Simply put, we're not going to win acceptance any easier, and we need all the friends we can get. What good does it really do when we attack women for enjoying the rights everybody should have had from the beginning?

If you look at how women are treated, you can easily see just how wrong this statement is. For every choice women have, society has a list of bullshit consequences for them. Sure, they can have the freedom to wear skirts, makeup, and long hair; but should they wear them they'll have to deal with every part of society that assumes that women dress the way they do for the sole purpose of giving men a hard-on. Sure, they have the "freedom" to opt for comfortable and durable men's wear, but if they make a habit of it, they'll have to endure the wrath of every part of society that feels threatened by the type of woman who doesn't care at all about how attractive she is to men. We CDs may know the disappointment of not being able to fit into something, but how many of us can say we understand what it's like to attach your very self-worth to whether or not you can fit into your jeans tomorrow morning?

Whenever you find yourself feeling jealous of this freedom women have, just try to understand what they have to go through everyday for it. Women had to fight for every freedom they enjoy today, and they--just like we--still have a long way to go. It can be hard to accept sometimes, but in some ways, we CDs have things a lot better than we think. Most importantly, none of this will improve unless we're willing to stand up and fight for them.

Wow. That got a bit longer than I expected

[Kerrylee61]

Hmm, I have to say that you have stated your case rather well! I haven't quite looked at the subject from that perspective before and you are quite right in your assessment. Thanks for altering my view on the "It's not fair" rant....

Kerry Lee

[Miss Tessa]

Dangerous clothing?

I can't picture any clothing that is dangerous. That's a far cry way to put it.
It's just material.

But you're right, it is because of the feminist foremothers that fought for the right to wear pants and baseball caps.

Now you will NEVER catch me in a baseball cap, that's too masculine for my taste.... But I love my boot cut and flair bluejeans.

[Lesley Ann]

Dear Mille,
You are quite right (in my opinion) woman have had to fight for every step of the way, and all power to their elbow. I remember my Mother not being able to obtain credit because she was a woman, my wife when we married wanted to keep her name, I did not blame her, but in those days neither her employer(BBC) or the social insurance would allow her to do so. The list goes on, and thank God times are a little better, I have two daughters, who still to this day have to fight to be treated equal at their work place. But I am not part of 50% of the population, I wish I was, and I do not have various organisations supporting me like trade unions, members of Parliament, national support groups, high profile celebrity journalist/broadcasters. I am as a CD a small percentage of the population, and even if we all on mass, like women did to get the vote or, Gay's (who represent a larger per cent of the population than CD'ers do) to obtain equal rights, we would not amount to any number. So I try to do the best I can, if I hear adverse comments or 'jokes' I say my piece. In the meantime let's organise!!!!!

Writing this manifesto in my nightie, Lesley Ann

[obsessedwithpantyhose]

i say "why should only women get to wear the fun clothes"

[sterling12]

I'll accept your premise, women AND men are constantly being bombarded by gender messages that are aimed at creating "appropriate" behavior.

We just had a thread about some inane fashion show on The Tube called "What Not to Wear." So don't forget about "The Fashion Police." Those self-proclaimed experts that have been trying to manipulate women for many years. It's done to make a buck, and unfortunately a lot of women are just insecure enough to go along with it. They pull the same crap with young males, except the game gets more dangerous. In the male case, it's often aimed at convincing them that the only appropriate male behavior is to act like a "Thug."

You make a valid argument, just don't forget the idea that they will manipulate EVERYBODY, if they can. These days, nobody has it too good!

Peace and Love, Joanie

[Karren H]

Well I'm not jeleous.... wear what you want, where you want......

[Kate Simmons]

You are right. As a society we still have a long way to go. Even as a sub culture, we sometimes tend to carry over the erroneous "standards" of society. Only when we are able to value individuals for who they are as people and what they are capable of accomplishing, what they wear notwithstanding, will we be able to say we have truly made progress.

[vivianann]

I think it is great that women can wear what they want to wear. I believe we need to get out just like the women did 50 yrs ago. We need to go out enfemme so society will be more accepting.

[LACD]

This is an interesting thread. I read that early in the 20th and the late 19th centuries, it was against the law for women to wear pants. They faced arrest and possible jail time. One can think of Calamity Jane as a groundbreaker for wearing pants. I don't begrudge GG's for wearing jeans and t-shirts, I just wish I could wear what I want in public without facing ostracisim. Society is changing but we won't see change anytime soon. When I see a GG with a nice outfit, I do wish I could wear it and I try to copy as close as I can.

[sometimes_miss]

It comes down to people being unhappy with what they have. The grass is always greener on the other side, right? We want the right to be made up and beautiful, spending hours on our appearance, women want to be able to get out of bed, shower and dress and be out the door in 15 minutes like we can. Neither is going to happen any time soon. Sure, we can adopt the dressing habits of the opposite sex, but for the most part the end result won't be seen as appropriate for where we want to go. A woman can go frumpy if she's going to the laundry or working on her car. A guy can dress up if he's going to an appropriate CD place, known CD friendly stores for clothes or whatever. But for work, or socially, we're pretty much stuck with what we have right now, especially if we want to attract the opposite sex. Western society is changing, and I think within a hundred years or so we will be able to wear whatever we want, and it won't raise an eyebrow; but we're not there yet. Of course, if you don't care what anyone else thinks of you, you can do whatever you want to now; doesn't mean there won't be any ramifications, though.

[battybattybats]

One thing I keep constantly seeing around here is these passive-aggressive complaints about how women are "free" to wear men's clothes without fearing retribution from society. I think this type of thinking is ignorant and harmful.

It remains a good argument to use with women who object to men wearing womens clothes because they are men not women. But you are right that often it is taken far too far from that reasonable point.

One thing everybody seems to forget is that past generations of women had to fight a long and hard battle against society to win this "freedom". They won it only because some women decided they'd had enough of dangerous, impractical clothing and were willing to fight to get it.

Ah, but there is more too it than that. Yes it is true that women in the workforce suffered accidents because of skirts caught in factory machinery etc. Yes it's true that freedom of movement to ride bicycles or swimming costumes less likely to cause drowning were big issues too.

However other parts of the fight came from Lesbians and Crossdressing Women! Risque fashions coupled with new notions of womens sexual freedom, much coming from France and Germany were a part of the womens movement that many homophobes and transphobes in the womens movement have tried to excise to seem more respectable and acceptable.

They overcame all the narrow-minded men and even other women who wanted them to "stay in their place".

Only for many to stab in the back the Lesbians, Crossdressers and Transexuals in their own movement telling them to "stay in their place".

Simply put, we're not going to win acceptance any easier, and we need all the friends we can get. What good does it really do when we attack women for enjoying the rights everybody should have had from the beginning?

Your right we should not attack them for enjoying those rights, only for opposing others from also enjoying those rights. Hypocracy is still acceptable to criticise. Attempting to erase the contribution of Lesbians, crossdressers and transexuals from the womens rights movements in the 1800's 1910's, 20's 30's 40's 50's 60's 70's 80's 90's and this century too is acceptible to criticise especially when those people helped get them the freedoms they now enjoy.

If you look at how women are treated, you can easily see just how wrong this statement is. For every choice women have, society has a list of bullshit consequences for them. Sure, they can have the freedom to wear skirts, makeup, and long hair; but should they wear them they'll have to deal with every part of society that assumes that women dress the way they do for the sole purpose of giving men a hard-on. Sure, they have the "freedom" to opt for comfortable and durable men's wear, but if they make a habit of it, they'll have to endure the wrath of every part of society that feels threatened by the type of woman who doesn't care at all about how attractive she is to men.

Thats a really important point to make! Women can only get away with so much masculine clothing before they too get condemned and judged.

But it is also often other women as well as men who do that judging! Other women who blame the victim for being raped because of the clothes they wear, who call other women Sk*nks Sl*ts and Dykes behind their backs because of what they wear.

We CDs may know the disappointment of not being able to fit into something, but how many of us can say we understand what it's like to attach your very self-worth to whether or not you can fit into your jeans tomorrow morning?

Considering the rise in eating disorders in men I think a lot of people fail to realise that men too suffer from these problems, not to the same frequency but that may just be a matter of time as the rate is climbing dramatically, all while hardly acknowledged by society.

Whenever you find yourself feeling jealous of this freedom women have, just try to understand what they have to go through everyday for it. Women had to fight for every freedom they enjoy today, and they--just like we--still have a long way to go. It can be hard to accept sometimes, but in some ways, we CDs have things a lot better than we think. Most importantly, none of this will improve unless we're willing to stand up and fight for them.

Absolutely. No civil rights issue was one by staying at home and hoping it would be fixed. Every single one was won by hard work, sacrifice, bravery and fighting. Women fought for the rights they have, some non-violently and some violently. Gays got theirs the same way and still are fighting for them today.

Transgender people have fought for their rights too, and we need to start celebrating those victories and heroes and heroines. And we need to remember never to do to others what has been done to us. Never to kick part of our community out or dump any of our allies to gain acceptibility. It wasn't right when others did it and it won't be right if we do. It's never acceptible.

We need to join in the fight for womens rights, and gay rights, and ethnic rights, and disabled rights etc cause we are all fighting different versions of the same fight and we are not worthy of having those freedoms unless we are willing to fight for them for everyone not just ourselves.

[Miss Tessa]

I'm a feminist. I support equal rights for women and I believe in strong confident women.

I think feminists didn't just do good for GG's, they helped the TG community indirectly in ways alot of people hadn't thought of, though I think most of yall probably had come to that conclusion because we are all smarter more enlightened ppl than conformists.

[Angie G]

Very good Mille.
Angie

[Laura_Stephens]

In the 50's and 60's women who wore traditional male clothing were looked at askance, but they were not fired from their jobs for doing so. We have yet to reach the tipping point that women did 50 years ago.

[Fab Karen]

RIGHT ON, Batty. Women & gay people have fought for a long time for their rights- little by little more & more people stood up for themselves- eventually, like rocks rolling down a hillside, it became more of an avalanche, helping to create the modern world.

[battybattybats]

I'm a feminist. I support equal rights for women and I believe in strong confident women.

I think feminists didn't just do good for GG's, they helped the TG community indirectly in ways alot of people hadn't thought of, though I think most of yall probably had come to that conclusion because we are all smarter more enlightened ppl than conformists.

Indeed. And some femenists have and still do support TG issues.

Others have called for the banning of SRS and directly oppose all TG rights issues, even to the point of using threats of violence. Some feminists have expressed the most unbelievably abminable views on the rape and murder of TG people.

Yet there are feminists who directly and openly are on our side and fighting for our rights!

[Billie Jean]

RIGHT ON, Batty. Women & gay people have fought for a long time for their rights- little by little more & more people stood up for themselves- eventually, like rocks rolling down a hillside, it became more of an avalanche, helping to create the modern world.

If this country keeps shifting to the right then we will never see the day that men can wear what they want in public. The right wing has been busy trying to take away any rights that gays have fought for and then will put women back in their place. When I see a GG wearing jeans and tshirts I applaude them for earning the right to do so. They don't do it because they are gay, but because they want choices(women like their frilly thing just as much). I would just like to do the same. Billie Jean

[Paul[a]]

Dear Mille,
You are quite right (in my opinion) woman have had to fight for every step of the way, and all power to their elbow.

[ I AGREE 100%! + edited for size & clarity]

I am as a CD a small percentage of the population, and even if we all on mass, like women did to get the vote or, Gay's (who represent a larger per cent of the population than CD'ers do) to obtain equal rights, we would not amount to any number.
[edit for size & clarity]

Writing this manifesto in my nightie, Lesley Ann

Ahem! Are we CERTAIN that Gays are a larger percentage than CD'ers? I'm Trans-Gendered as well as being technically CD, and I know, for example, that the perceived percentages of young (pre-18 year old) Trans-Kids is going up steadily - NOT (IMHO) because there are truly more, but rather because they are now 'Coming Out' and/or being Identified/Diagnosed more frequently - ie: They're just More Visible!

The Internet and 'Popular Television' (as well as the GLBTQ movement) has made gender diversity more 'Visible'. It took many years for the 'T' (Trans) to be added to the 'GLB' (Gay, Lesbian, Bi) Identity - I'd include CD's in the 'Q' (as in Queer, not in the 'Gay' sense, but in the 'Strange/Odd/Peculiar/Different...Not-Typical' sense of the word).

[I HATE Labels, for just this reason - Definitions Change!]

Perhaps there are more CD's than we/you think!

I'm not really disagreeing or trying to start an argument, just suggesting a different possibility/opinion/idea!

Hugz, Paula

ps: [SIZE="4"]Visibility leads to Acceptance! [/SIZE]

....she says as she realizes she's still closeted!

Explanation, but not an excuse: My counselor STRONGLY recommended that I wait to come out, until I complete my Master's, next June (for financial reasons; I'd lose my scholarship, and I'm not brave enough to fight it through the courts. Yes, I know, I'm selfish, and a coward.)
- but Then, I'll finally be 'Free at Last'!

...I hadn't planned on a confession tonight, but....

...we have come far, but still have a long way to go.

[emmicd]

I believe women and girls have pressures to look beautiful and as thin as possible. Advertising is geared to thin and well proportioned model types. Women don't all fit into this mold and it can be detrimental to some. Many girls feel they have to uphold a certain image and always have to deal with guys attraction and advances. It's not easy being a girl or woman. I certainly don't envy women or girls since they have to put up with so much. That certainly explains why girls and women opt for the casual look sometimes. If you are a girl why would you want to wear a dress all the time? I can see why girls would resist wearing dresses? They want to get away from always being a lady and so feminine. Who can blame them!

Great point raised in your thread!

emmi

[Fab Karen]

If this country keeps shifting to the right then we will never see the day that men can wear what they want in public. The right wing has been busy trying to take away any rights that gays have fought for and then will put women back in their place. When I see a GG wearing jeans and tshirts I applaude them for earning the right to do so. They don't do it because they are gay, but because they want choices(women like their frilly thing just as much). I would just like to do the same. Billie Jean

I suggest you pay attention to what happens on January 20th. The rightwing fringe having a stranglehold on this country is over with.
You can wear what you want now, just that if you live in an area where diversity is a four-letter-word, it'll be a lot harder to do.

[Amy Hepker]

I say it is all your everyones mind, wear what makes you feel comfortable in. I would never in Male mode dress Professional, but in Female mode, I love too. I also wear girl jeans and pants alot everyday, of course I am 24/7 being who I really am, AMY.

You are not living your life if you are not being yourself. You are living a LIE and you will be set free when you finally realize it and can be yourself. I was living a Lie to myself and everyone else for 51 years and now I am free.

[Ema1234 GG]

I always find these threads so amusing because they always wear the same issue but in men can and do wear women's clothing. I live in a city which has a huge student population and I regularly see guys walking around wearing make up or different items of female clothing. And nobody bats an eyelid.

All I can say is get off your arse and do it! You won't achieve anything by just whining about it.

[sometimes_miss]

Keep in mind these are my opinions. I may be right, I may be wrong, I may be a little of both.

I believe women and girls have pressures to look beautiful and as thin as possible. Advertising is geared to thin and well proportioned model types. Women don't all fit into this mold and it can be detrimental to some.

Advertising is often geared towards what men find attractive. Most women have learned that fashion, and being sexually attractive, are sometimes mutually exclusive. The key words here are 'well proportioned'. The vast majority of men are attracted to females with a waist to hip ratio of approximately 70%. Most women in their prime child bearing years will, barring illness, approach that percentage, at least close enough to differentiate themselves from male figures. Sometimes problems arise when a girl sees another female of quite different body proportions who is getting things in life that she herself isn't (very often, it's a particular male she wants, that another girl has). She sees it as a 'body type' thing, and becomes obsessed with trying to change herself into something that she can't, because she sees that as the only way to accomplish her goal.

Many girls feel they have to uphold a certain image and always have to deal with guys attraction and advances. It's not easy being a girl or woman. I certainly don't envy women or girls since they have to put up with so much. That certainly explains why girls and women opt for the casual look sometimes. If you are a girl why would you want to wear a dress all the time? I can see why girls would resist wearing dresses? They want to get away from always being a lady and so feminine. Who can blame them!

Oh yes, it can be so difficult dealing with the constant attention caused by being attractive to the opposite sex all the time (O.K, I'll sacrifice myself, hit me with the beauty stick, I'll endure all that attraction and those advances). But it's also difficult dealing with the reverse; being invisible to the opposite sex. If you're attractive and want to be left alone, there is always someplace you can go to get 'out of the spotlight'. But if you're not attractive, there is no way to do the opposite, and get all the attention you want.

I think much of it has to do with some girl's expectations of what their appearance will accomplish, and yes, when growing up they are told so often what they should look like to be successful. When they don't get what they want in a situation, they may blame their appearance, and become determined to change their situation by changing how they look. After all, it's worked so well in the past. Men are often attracted to a 'type'. When a woman is able to make herself into that 'type', she becomes attractive to that target male. But it doesn't always work; because sometimes whether he's attracted to her depends on something else entirely apart from her appearance.

But like so many other things, a small percentage of any group of people will take things too far. Various eating disorders have been blamed on society's pressures on young women to do whatever they have to, by changing how they look, to accomplish their desires.

[Veronica27]

One thing I keep constantly seeing around here is these passive-aggressive complaints about how women are "free" to wear men's clothes without fearing retribution from society. I think this type of thinking is ignorant and harmful.

I agree with most of your analysis of the female struggle for equality. However, I disagree with your opening paragraph which makes it appear that crossdressers who have an admiration for women and the rights they have achieved are somehow taking a "passive-aggressive" attitude toward women and being ignorant. I like being a man, I love and admire women but I would not like to be one for many reasons including the fact that I think they have a far more difficult life than men, have more responsibilities piled upon them and are under far more pressure from their peers in matters such as appearance. However, being male is not without its own pressures, one of which is strict conformity to an artificial image of masculinity. This requires the wearing of drab, colourless clothing and the internalizing of most feelings and emotions. Over the course of a period of time (say a week), even though women must succumb to peer pressure about their appearance, they will have enjoyed a far greater variety of options regarding clothing, jewelry, makeup and in some cases even hair style, depending on their activities, than their male counterparts. For many, crossdressing is simply a means of escaping from the rigid demands of male existence, and enjoying a bit of what women have achieved for themselves. Call it envy, but it is not malicious, and drawing attention to this basic difference in society's attitudes can only help to increase understanding and acceptance.

I live in a city which has a huge student population and I regularly see guys walking around wearing make up or different items of female clothing. And nobody bats an eyelid

You are observing a specific segment of the male population, i.e. student, age similarity, living away from home. If I, a 69 year old retiree, wore makeup to my family reunion or female clothing to do my gardening there would be plenty of eyelids batted and embarrassment all around.

I'm not even sure that it's true that women can wear what they like, because the fashion fascists are lurking everywhere. Take these instances:

This is true. However, the point is that while there are specific styles that are suitable for each situation, time or place, there can be a significant difference between each. They can be ultra feminine at a wedding, for instance, and super macho at the ball game, or refined but practical at the office. They can often choose between a dress, skirt and top, slacks and top or pant suit. They can wear a blouse, sweater, t-shirt, cami, halter top and so on, depending on occasion and weather. Such options are not as available to men. We are limited to "dress vs casual" in varying degrees depending on the occasion.

Veronica